Tuesday, December 6, 2011

More Evidence of Adaptive Mutations: Adaptation by Directed Modification Rather Than Selection, Lamarck N, Darwin 0

One of the major pillars of evidence claimed for the fact of evolution is the adaptation in populations that we observe. As Ernst Mayr—one of the leading evolutionists in the twentieth century—wrote in his Toward a New Philosophy of Biology, “evolutionary change is also simply a fact owing to the changes in the content of gene pools from generation to generation.” This equating of minor change—even a mere change in gene frequencies within a population—with all of evolution is rampant within evolutionary apologetics. For example in the first 20 seconds of the recent Let’s Talk About Evolution video Professor Marta Wayne tells viewers that “Evolution is change in gene frequency” and science writer Emily Willingham defines evolution as “a change in population over time.” Similarly in this video Professor Pamela Bjorkman states that a mutating virus is “evolution at work” and that “In the same way, people have evolved, but over a much slower time scale.”

But are allele frequency changes and virus mutations tantamount to evolution?

The answer is “no” for several reasons. First, there is no proof that such small-scale change can add up to the massive changes—including everything from molecular machines to body plans—that evolution requires. Evolutionists are fully aware of this and in their “honest moments” (as Stephen Jay Gould once put it) admit this to each other. As we understand them small-scale mechanisms of change, such as random mutations, simply do not provide the degree or type of change needed by evolution.

Furthermore, in the past century another category of evidence has arisen that highlights the failure of this pillar of evolution: The small-scale change mechanisms themselves are highly complex. In other words, if evolution is true then it created incredibly complex cellular and molecular mechanisms so that, yes, evolution could occur.

One example of this are the so-called adaptive mutations. These mutations are not random with respect to need, as evolutionists have insisted, but rather are often the right one for the need at hand. In other words, when faced with a challenging environment populations respond with changes that meet the new challenges.

Whereas evolution requires random changes that ever so slowly are produced by undirected mutations, science reveals just the opposite: rapid change brought about by non random adaptive mutations which meet the current environmental challenge, as one recent paper from Israel demonstrated. The paper first explained that in neo-Darwinism heritable diversity comes from:

neutral and advantageous mutations that occur rarely, spontaneously at random locations, and independently of any selection processes imposed by the environmental conditions.

But biological designs comprise a vast combinatorial space and so:

it is reasonable to hypothesize that existing and rare genetic variation cannot provide an immediate advantageous solution

Indeed. But there is dearth of knowledge of how adaptation occurs, for:

Little information exists on the dynamics of processes that lead to functional biological novelties and the intermediate states of evolving forms.

Their results provide hints, however, for contra evolutionary theory they found heritable adaptation which “must have been induced in individual cells by this environment.” They conclude:

This study, therefore, details a process that is different from the fundamental common view of adaptation. Here adaptation seems not to rely on random and rare genetic variability that accumulated independently from the selection agent. …

Thus, adaptation in our experiments was a property of individual cells rather than a property of the population and the process that led each cell to the adapted state was induced by the challenging environment. In fact, further findings corroborated this striking result. …

Notably, the decline in the adaptive potential over time argues against the existence of an advantageous subpopulation during phase I and supports the notion that adaptation was achieved by cells only after the transition into the challenging environment. …

These adjustments, as we have shown, can be rapidly gained by individual cells and stably propagated for many generations and, thus, should be considered an adaptation that might have a significant role in evolution of regulatory systems. …

cells acquired adaptive mutations (mutations directed at advantageous positions) at a very high rate after the exposure to glucose. …

adaptive mutations might arise as a response to stressful environments and allow such a widespread adaptation of individuals and the rapid adaptation of the whole population. …

Thus, our experiments prove the existence of a cellular mechanism enabling an inherited cellular adaptation that was induced by an unforeseen challenge in many cells simultaneously. …

The implications of such a mechanism are far reaching in diverse areas of biology; …

In other words, these results indicate a built-in response mechanism. The population of cells rapidly and efficiently adjusts to the environmental challenge and these changes are passed on to later generations.

These types of results contradict evolutionary theory and evolutionists have resisted them all along. I once debated an evolution professor who dismissed such evidence and assured the audience it was all false. This is how science works for evolutionists. Theory first, evidence second.

The claim that adaptive change is a proof text for all of evolution is an incredible misrepresentation of the scientific evidence. It is an equivocation on evolution so over the top it is difficult to believe. Indeed, it is astonishing to see evolutionists such as Mayr, Bjorkman, Wayne and the rest make such statements with a straight face.

Religion drives science, and it matters.

164 comments:

  1. Cortical Inheritance: The Crushing Critique Against Genetic Reductionism – Arthur Jones – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4187488

    What Do Organisms Mean? Stephen L. Talbott – Winter 2011
    Excerpt: Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin once described how you can excise the developing limb bud from an amphibian embryo, shake the cells loose from each other, allow them to reaggregate into a random lump, and then replace the lump in the embryo. A normal leg develops. Somehow the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern. Lewontin went on to remark: “Unlike a machine whose totality is created by the juxtaposition of bits and pieces with different functions and properties, the bits and pieces of a developing organism seem to come into existence as a consequence of their spatial position at critical moments in the embryo’s development. Such an object is less like a machine than it is like a language whose elements … take unique meaning from their context.[3]“,,,
    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/what-do-organisms-mean

    The face of a frog: Time-lapse video reveals never-before-seen bioelectric pattern – July 2011
    Excerpt: For the first time, Tufts University biologists have reported that bioelectrical signals are necessary for normal head and facial formation in an organism and have captured that process in a time-lapse video that reveals never-before-seen patterns of visible bioelectrical signals outlining where eyes, nose, mouth, and other features will appear in an embryonic tadpole.,,, “When a frog embryo is just developing, before it gets a face, a pattern for that face lights up on the surface of the embryo,”,,, “We believe this is the first time such patterning has been reported for an entire structure, not just for a single organ. I would never have predicted anything like it. It’s a jaw dropper.”,,,
    http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-frog-time-lapse-video-reveals-never-before-seen.html

    Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century – James A. Shapiro – 2009
    Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112).
    http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf

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  2. Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century – James A. Shapiro – 2009
    Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112).
    http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf

    ‘Now one more problem as far as the generation of information. It turns out that you don’t only need information to build genes and proteins, it turns out to build Body-Plans you need higher levels of information; Higher order assembly instructions. DNA codes for the building of proteins, but proteins must be arranged into distinctive circuitry to form distinctive cell types. Cell types have to be arranged into tissues. Tissues have to be arranged into organs. Organs and tissues must be specifically arranged to generate whole new Body-Plans, distinctive arrangements of those body parts. We now know that DNA alone is not responsible for those higher orders of organization. DNA codes for proteins, but by itself it does insure that proteins, cell types, tissues, organs, will all be arranged in the body. And what that means is that the Body-Plan morphogenesis, as it is called, depends upon information that is not encoded on DNA. Which means you can mutate DNA indefinitely. 80 million years, 100 million years, til the cows come home. It doesn’t matter, because in the best case you are just going to find a new protein some place out there in that vast combinatorial sequence space. You are not, by mutating DNA alone, going to generate higher order structures that are necessary to building a body plan. So what we can conclude from that is that the neo-Darwinian mechanism is grossly inadequate to explain the origin of information necessary to build new genes and proteins, and it is also grossly inadequate to explain the origination of novel biological form.’ – Stephen Meyer – (excerpt taken from Meyer/Sternberg vs. Shermer/Prothero debate – 2009)

    A few comments on ‘non-local’ epigenetic information implicated in 3-D spatial organization of Body Plans:
    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1iNy78O6ZpU8wpFIgkILi85TvhC9mSqzUSE_jzbksoHY

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  4. "But are allele frequency changes and virus mutations tantamount to evolution? The answer is “no”"

    Proof, if any were needed, that Cornelius honestly does not understand the theory of evolution at all.

    "First, there is no proof that such small-scale change can add up to the massive changes—including everything from molecular machines to body plans—that evolution requires."

    This is a thoroughly dishonest claim. Evolution deniers continually cry that there is 'no evidence for evolution', and yet when evidence is presented, it gets shuffled off as 'merely microevolution'. We human beings live short lives and we simply don't live long enough to witness evolutionary changes add up to 'macroevolution'. We can perform all the case studies and lab and field experiments in the world, beautifully demonstrating the wonders of evolution in action, but they will always be brushed aside as evidence of 'merely microevolution'.

    Which is especially moronic when we consider MICROEVOLUTION IS MACROEVOLUTION just on a smaller scale. Evidence of one is evidence of the other. To accept microevolution and yet deny macroevolution is like accepting there are tectonic plates and that they move, but insisting they aren't capable of producing mountains (that'd be a RELIGIOUS argument. Everyone knows God made mountains. That's just sensible science). Or to accept that someone can be my brother or sister, but to deny they could be my cousin.

    "As we understand them small-scale mechanisms of change, such as random mutations, simply do not provide the degree or type of change needed by evolution."

    Back that statement up, please.

    "Furthermore, in the past century another category of evidence has arisen that highlights the failure of this pillar of evolution: The small-scale change mechanisms themselves are highly complex."

    No, they have BECOME highly complex. Doesn't mean they always were.

    And just to rub salt into the wound, you quote-mine and misrepresent yet more people who absolutely disagree with your evolution-scepticism. To quote from their abstract, all they are studying is "the adaptation dynamics of genomically rewired cells in evolution."

    "These types of results contradict evolutionary theory..."

    No they don't.

    "...and evolutionists have resisted them all along."

    No they haven't. The people doing this very study were 'evolutionists'.

    "The claim that adaptive change is a proof text for all of evolution is an incredible misrepresentation of the scientific evidence."

    Pot, kettle, I believe you're both well acquainted with Mr Hunter...?

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  5. Oh look, BA77 the crack smoking deranged tool of the scroll-wheel industrial complex is spamming off-topic rubbish again.

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  6. "Which is especially moronic when we consider MICROEVOLUTION IS MACROEVOLUTION"

    Which is why getting a needle is murder. It's being knifed, only on a smaller scale.

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  7. Great news Cornelius, thanks!

    Will you embrace this new evolutionary theory?

    The claim that adaptive change is a proof text for all of evolution is an incredible misrepresentation of the scientific evidence.

    Yes. It also seems to be your misrepresentation of the statement of a real scientist.

    It is an equivocation on evolution so over the top it is difficult to believe.

    Hardly unbelievable. We all have faith in your equivocations.

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  8. Cornelius said:

    "In other words, when faced with a challenging environment populations respond with changes that meet the new challenges."

    Apparently, all of the extinct organisms throughout the history of life on Earth didn't get the memo.

    "Whereas evolution requires random changes that ever so slowly are produced by undirected mutations, science reveals just the opposite: rapid change brought about by non random adaptive mutations which meet the current environmental challenge..."

    See above about extinct organisms.

    Also, please tell me your specific definition of "ever so slowly" and "rapid".

    "In other words, these results indicate a built-in response mechanism. The population of cells rapidly and efficiently adjusts to the environmental challenge and these changes are passed on to later generations."

    See above about extinct organisms.

    If an omnipotent, omniscient designer god designed and created everything, why don't ALL organisms have a "built-in mechanism" (i.e. front loading) that enables them to rapidly and efficiently adjust to ALL environmental challenges?

    If or when a "built-in response mechanism" is passed on, it's only if or when an organism lives long enough to produce viable offspring. And if 'built-in response mechanisms' can be passed on, that also means that they can be inherited. Sounds to me a lot like evolution, with an emphasis on natural selection.

    "These types of results contradict evolutionary theory and evolutionists have resisted them all along."

    Really?

    Therefor jesus?

    "This is how science works for evolutionists. Theory first, evidence second."

    I'd love to see your theory and evidence for the history and diversity of life on Earth. Evidence first please, and then your detailed scientific theory that explains it.

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  9. the whole truth:

    "In other words, when faced with a challenging environment populations respond with changes that meet the new challenges."

    Have you ever heard of global catastrophes, like the Permian-Triassic meteor impact scenario?

    But, of course, the premise of Darwinism comes from the University of Edinborough, home of Prof Dutton, whose premise was that the earth was eternally old, and that all major geological structures (=macro-evolution) comes about through gradual minute processes(=microevolution) taking place over eons of time (=gradualism). Charles Lyell would popularize this theory; and Darwin--who also attended Edinborough as did Lyell--was eternally grateful for Lyell's geology.

    But, of course, we now know that gradualism cannot explain many geological events. We know that catastrophes (like the Flood) have occurred. This severely undermines Darwin's foundation; but, of course, this doesn't matter at all: does it?

    Please explain to me how a cache of dinosaur EMBRYOS were fossilized? Do you have some gradulistic---versus catastrophic---explanation?

    So, if we start talking about extinctions, let's include the high likelihood that many, if not most, fossilization events were due to catastrophes. But, of course, what concern do you have with the "whole truth" about these matters?


    "I'd love to see your theory and evidence for the history and diversity of life on Earth. Evidence first please, and then your detailed scientific theory that explains it."

    I'd like to see yours. Could you please give all of us here at this blogsite your "detailed scientific theory" that explains the origin of life? And how about the Cambrian Explosion? Or the Mammalian Explosion? Or the emergence of the bird feather without any evidence whatsoever of any primitive forms? We await.

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  10. Lino D'Ischia said...

    But, of course, we now know that gradualism cannot explain many geological events. We know that catastrophes (like the Flood) have occurred. This severely undermines Darwin's foundation; but, of course, this doesn't matter at all: does it?


    What 'Flood' would that be? Where did it occur, and when, and how long did it last? Where did all the water come from, and where did it all go?

    Of course all answers you give should be backed up with scientific evidence. Do you have any such evidence?

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  11. Thorton:

    "What 'Flood' would that be? Where did it occur, and when, and how long did it last? Where did all the water come from, and where did it all go?"

    Did I say that a Flood occurred? No, I said that the Flood of the Bible was a catastrophic event, which, it turns out, ended up being swept away by the triumph of gradualism. But, catastrophes are making a big-time comeback. And that fact should have the effect of undermining Darwinian certainty. But you know how true believers are, don't you?

    As to the Biblical Flood, I rather suspect that it had to do with a post-Ice-Age world in which rising ocean levels (brought about by true cataclysmic global warming) gouged out the Straits of Gibraltar, and with sea levels (in the Mediterranean area) rising 3 to 400 feet in perhaps days. Of course, there would be an oral tradition of such an event.

    You see----a plain and easy scientific explanation.

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  12. Lino D'Ischia said...

    Did I say that a Flood occurred? No, I said that the Flood of the Bible was a catastrophic event, which, it turns out, ended up being swept away by the triumph of gradualism. But, catastrophes are making a big-time comeback. And that fact should have the effect of undermining Darwinian certainty. But you know how true believers are, don't you?


    Modern science has no problems with the fact that some catastrophic geological events have occurred. Why do you think that is a problem for evolution? Are you really going to claim that because *some* geological features were formed catastrophically that they *all* were?

    You are not articulating your position here well at all. Please try again.

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  14. Lino -

    As to the Biblical Flood, I rather suspect that it had to do with a post-Ice-Age world in which rising ocean levels (brought about by true cataclysmic global warming) gouged out the Straits of Gibraltar, and with sea levels (in the Mediterranean area) rising 3 to 400 feet in perhaps days. Of course, there would be an oral tradition of such an event.

    You see----a plain and easy scientific explanation.


    You can suspect whatever you like. But if you want others to take your hypotheses seriously then you need evidence. What is the evidence of a great global flood, as described in the Bible?

    And as far as your hypothesis goes, global warming won't do as an explanation. The reason why global warming causes sea levels to rise today is that it mealts the ice locked up at the poles. But if all the ice melted, that still wouldn't be enough water to cover all the world's land.

    I'd like to see yours.

    You are dodging. Don't critically analyse evolution and assume that if you don't find it convincing the default answer is God. Lay out your theory too so we can compare their merits in parallel.

    Could you please give all of us here at this blogsite your "detailed scientific theory" that explains the origin of life?

    That simple self-replicating molecules developed from non-living self-replicating chemical compounds.

    And how about the Cambrian Explosion?

    What about it? It marks the emergence of armour, teeth and other 'hard parts' (parts which, crucially, fossilise). This is no great mystery.

    Or the Mammalian Explosion?

    Again, what about it? Mammals lived for millions of years in the shadow of the dinosaurs. Once they were all gone, the stage was cleared for the survivors of the KT extinction which killed them to flourish and thrive, which is just what mammals did. It is a clear and well-documented pattern following extinction events.

    Or the emergence of the bird feather without any evidence whatsoever of any primitive forms?

    If you think so then you have not kept up with recent discoveries. Digs in China over the last decade have revealed a trove of fossils detailing the transition of a small family of dinosaurs from reptile to bird. Psittacosaurus and Tianyulong, for example, had long, hollow quills, presumably used for insulation or display, which may well be early 'protofeathers'.

    We await.

    As do we. Do not forget we want YOUR answers too...

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  15. Lino asked:

    "Have you ever heard of global catastrophes, like the Permian-Triassic meteor impact scenario?"

    Yep, and other extinctions, including all the known "mass" ones, which goes to my point. Obviously, many organisms/populations have not responded with changes (whether cellular or otherwise) that met the new challenges rapidly and efficiently, or at all. That's why they're extinct.

    Some things go extinct because of sudden "catastrophes" and some things go extinct because of drawn out "challenges" or "catastrophes" that they are unable to adapt to.

    "But, of course, the premise of Darwinism...."

    There you go with that "Darwinism" thing again. Do you also say Duttonism, Lyellism, Einsteinism, jesusism, and YHWHism?

    "But, of course, we now know that gradualism cannot explain many geological events. We know that catastrophes (like the Flood) have occurred. This severely undermines Darwin's foundation; but, of course, this doesn't matter at all: does it?"

    Who's "we"? And what do "geological events" have to do with what I've said? If by "geological events" you mean large scale, catastrophic, geological events, see above about extinctions and lack of ability by some organisms/populations to adapt to "challenges".

    And like Thorton asked, What flood are you referring to? Floods are a common occurrence, so you'll have to be more specific. By the way, I wouldn't necessarily refer to a flood as a geological event. The source of a flood is often meteorological (rain/snow) although a flood does usually affect geological structures (land), though not necessarily negatively.

    "Please explain to me how a cache of dinosaur EMBRYOS were fossilized?"

    Google is your friend.

    "Do you have some gradulistic---versus catastrophic---explanation?"

    Well, fossilization itself may take quite a long time, depending on the conditions. The initial burial of the embryo containing eggs would have been sudden or at least fairly quick.

    "So, if we start talking about extinctions, let's include the high likelihood that many, if not most, fossilization events were due to catastrophes. But, of course, what concern do you have with the "whole truth" about these matters?"

    "Catastrophies" can be small or large scale. Many things have been killed by "catastrophes" but few to no fossils were formed, while at other times many fossils were formed. It depends on what was killed, whether they were buried, the conditions in which they were buried, and whether they stayed buried long enough to become fossilized.

    What any of that has to with what I've said is a mystery to me unless you're agreeing with me that many organisms/populations have not been able to adapt to challenges, and especially sudden or drawn out, large scale catastrophes.

    "I'd like to see yours."

    I asked first and I asked Cornelius. He has been asked that many times but I have yet to see him answer. If you'd like to provide your answer, feel free to do so, although it seems obvious that you'll say god-did-it.

    "Could you please give all of us here at this blogsite your "detailed scientific theory" that explains the origin of life?"

    I don't have a theory or explanation of the "origin" of life. Some scientists are working on it and I'll wait and see what they figure out. By history and diversity of life I didn't mean "origin of life". I meant the history and diversity of "life" once "life" was established. In other words, the evolution of living things.

    See part two.

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  16. Part two.

    "And how about the Cambrian Explosion? Or the Mammalian Explosion? Or the emergence of the bird feather without any evidence whatsoever of any primitive forms? We await."

    Again, Google is your friend. I don't have time to do research for you. I will say though that I accept what science has figured out or will figure out as long as it's supported by evidence and reasonable explanations. I have no problem with changing my mind if necessary or not making up my mind until enough evidence is discovered. In the meantime, I don't want or need ridiculous, gap filling, religious fairy tales.

    You godbots are the ones who think you know everything and have your minds made up. If you want to overturn any scientific inferences, hypotheses, or theories, and/or replace them with your god-did-it fairy tales, you're going to have to come up with something a LOT better than your bald assertions.

    By the way, the 'explosions' you mention encompassed millions of years. How is that a problem for evolution, or the ToE, especially if some organisms/populations may sometimes be able to "rapidly and efficiently" respond and adjust to challenges?

    Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to find the evidence that you godbots expect from science? Have you ever looked for fossils, and especially fossils of the earliest feathered animals, or the earliest mammals, or Cambrian, or Pre-Cambrian fossils?

    If I were to challenge you to find a fossilized part (any part) of a Coryphodon, a very common animal during the lower Eocene, how long do you think it would take you to find one? You could even take advantage of the fact that there are lots of scientific papers that will get you started on where to look (generally) but you'd still have to find one yourself. Do you think it would be easy?

    Now, try to imagine how much harder it is to find extremely rare fossils, if they exist at all. You IDiots must think that fossils of every animal that ever lived are just lying around by the thousands on the surface waiting to be easily found in perfect condition.

    I would love to get all you thumpers out into the badlands of Wyoming or Mongolia in mid summer to look for fossils and see how long you last before you start crying for your mommies. You have NO IDEA how hard it is and what people have to go through to find some fossils, even if those fossils are considered to be relatively 'common'.

    Some fossils are fairly easy to find and may be at places that are easily accessible, but many are not. You arm chair science bashers don't have a clue, and if you're so sure that it's easy to find the fossils or other evidence that would answer all the questions about the history and diversity of life, why don't you get out there and find it? What's stopping you?

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  17. lino said:

    "We know that catastrophes (like the Flood) have occurred."

    And then lied:

    "Did I say that a Flood occurred? No, I said that the Flood of the Bible was a catastrophic event..."

    And you god zombies claim to have all the 'morals'. Pfft.

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  18. Question that's bugging me :

    Enzyme (say ribosome) is made of subunits which are in turn made of proteins and RNA.

    These proteins and RNA are stored as sequences of nucleotides someplace along DNA. The way I understand it, ribosome building protein should not be allowed to mutate (or else). Ribosome needs to perform its function the same way for billions of years.

    What mechanism is conserving nucleotide sequences for all the core systems of the cell yet allowing some other sequences to mutate? Cell's core (immutable) systems being organelles, support structures, enzymes, transducers, codon mapping etc

    Mechanism that allows mutation on some but conserves other DNA is probably shared among cell types and species. The mechanism itself should be conserved i.e. not allowed to mutate otherwise we have a disaster at hand.

    Just a question, I have no point to make.

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  19. Eugen,

    Enzyme (say ribosome) is made of subunits which are in turn made of proteins and RNA.

    As far as I know, it's either RNA or protein. Ribosomes have both, but they're called "macromolecular complexes". And not all enzymes have subunits (separate chains), but they do have different domains (discrete folding regions of the same polypeptide).

    The way I understand it, ribosome building protein should not be allowed to mutate (or else). Ribosome needs to perform its function the same way for billions of years.

    It's actually a matter of degree. Some regions are more critical than others, and some substitutions may be inconsequential or have a tolerable effect even in important positions, e.g. if the new amino acid has similar physical-chemical properties. Carl Woese used ribosomal sequences for his famous "three-domain" phylogenies. There are even some "hypervariable" regions in ribosomal subunits.

    What mechanism is conserving nucleotide sequences for all the core systems of the cell yet allowing some other sequences to mutate?

    The simplest explanation would be NS (OK, it doesn't protect against *mutation*, although it can stop mutations from spreading in the population). But, again, everything mutates. It's a matter of degree.

    Mechanism that allows mutation on some but conserves other DNA is probably shared among cell types and species. The mechanism itself should be conserved i.e. not allowed to mutate otherwise we have a disaster at hand.

    As mutation is a chemical process, there are differences in the probability of mutation along the genome ("random mutation" is random with respect to its effects on fitness, it doesn't mean any kind of change is equally probable at the molecular level). The nucleotide sequence by itself influences the probability of mutation, but I'm more familiar with cases in which mutability is enhanced rather than depressed (e.g. sequences that allow the formation of "hairpins", google "DNA polymerase slippage"). You're probably more interested in epigenetic mechanisms, but I'm very ignorant in that respect. All I can remember is some paper on the epigenetic protection of telomeres in Drosophila. Search that, perhaps you'll find some relevant refs to reviews.

    But remember, everything fails at some point in biology. Expect mutations everywhere. It's just a matter of degree.

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  20. D'Ischia,

    Or the emergence of the bird feather without any evidence whatsoever of any primitive forms?

    Major LOL. Ignorance is such a bliss!

    Sinosauropteryx

    Prediction: You shall align with Alan Feduccia's collagen fibre hypothesis. I'll not be here to laugh at that, but good luck refuting the ultra-structure analyses that allowed researchers even to reconstruct integument colour.

    Ritchie,

    Psittacosaurus and Tianyulong, for example, had long, hollow quills, presumably used for insulation or display, which may well be early 'protofeathers'

    That would be very surprising, as it would imply a very basal origin of the proto-feather filaments, before the ornithischian-saurichian split. But then, those wacky dinos from China are always surprising.

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  21. Geoxus, thanks for the answer and suggestions for further search.

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  22. Geoxus:

    "Prediction: You shall align with Alan Feduccia's collagen fibre hypothesis. I'll not be here to laugh at that, but good luck refuting the ultra-structure analyses that allowed researchers even to reconstruct integument colour."

    I'm afraid your prediction is wrong. I align myself with Prum and Brush.

    And as to your howl of laughter: is that how you react to those who disagree with you? You act as if there isn't one bit of controversy over the origin of the feather. But, of course, that's how Darwninists are; they've got all the answers. No problem, just ask them.

    Here's this huge problem for Darwninian theory, and you just brush it aside (no pun intended)

    ReplyDelete
  23. CH said, "Whereas evolution requires random changes that ever so slowly are produced by undirected mutations, science reveals just the opposite: rapid change brought about by non random adaptive mutations which meet the current environmental challenge..."

    --
    If evolutionists had integrity, they would subtract all adaptive change due to cellular mechanisms from their "mountain of evidence" for evolution. I suggest that all skeptics of evolution refuse to join in their word games anymore and dump the ambiguous term "evolution" (and micro-evolution) when more accurate and precise terms would represent a biological process better.

    Divide and conquer.

    Loud and clear, adaptive change due to cellular mechanisms IS NOT EVOLUTION.

    Bird beak variation due to protein regulation IS NOT EVOLUTION.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Thorton:

    "Modern science has no problems with the fact that some catastrophic geological events have occurred. Why do you think that is a problem for evolution? Are you really going to claim that because *some* geological features were formed catastrophically that they *all* were?"

    As I've already mentioned, very likely, because of catastrophic events, the fossil record exhibits "explosions" of new body types; not just in the Cambrian, but at later epochs. This is completely non-gradualistic, and, therefore, completely non-Darwinian. It should be a "difficulty on the theory"; but, of course, not for true believers.

    Do I think most, if not all, "fossilization events" are catastrophic in nature? Yes. Could I be wrong? Yes. Do I have reason to believe I'm right? Yes. You've heard, of course, of the completely entire tree that is found in the fossilized forest in Arizona. How else do you explain this.

    "You are not articulating your position here well at all. Please try again."

    Well, when people don't want to be disabused of their preconceptions, then, quite naturally, they find every fault in the world in that which confronts them.

    ReplyDelete
  25. the whole truth:

    ""Catastrophies" can be small or large scale. Many things have been killed by "catastrophes" but few to no fossils were formed, while at other times many fossils were formed. It depends on what was killed, whether they were buried, the conditions in which they were buried, and whether they stayed buried long enough to become fossilized. "

    You're simply equivocating terms here. We're talking about cataclysmic events here.

    "I don't have a theory or explanation of the "origin" of life. Some scientists are working on it and I'll wait and see what they figure out. By history and diversity of life I didn't mean "origin of life". I meant the history and diversity of "life" once "life" was established. In other words, the evolution of living things. "

    More equivocation and evasion, I'm afraid. Try to be honest with yourself. Does it make any sense at all that physico-chemical events spontaneously formed life? No.

    Sir Fred Hoyle, life-long agnostic, became a believer in a superior intellect simply by reflecting that cytochrome c, without which life cannot replicate (hence, Darwinism is rendered impossible--as all of life), did the calculation for its arising from purely random events. It's really quite simple. What are you waiting for? New laws of nature and chemistry?

    ReplyDelete
  26. the whole truth:

    "Again, Google is your friend. I don't have time to do research for you. I will say though that I accept what science has figured out or will figure out as long as it's supported by evidence and reasonable explanations. I have no problem with changing my mind if necessary or not making up my mind until enough evidence is discovered. In the meantime, I don't want or need ridiculous, gap filling, religious fairy tales."

    This is what you've said: "I accept what science has figured out or will figure out as long as it's supported by evidence and reasonable explanations."

    But you've just finished saying that you "don't have time to do research for [me]". So, when I pose questions to you, you don't want to make the effort to CONFIRM that what 'science' is saying is, in fact, "supported by evidence and reasonable explanations". I will now call you the "partial truth", since that seems adequate enough for you.

    And, BTW, if you don't want religious "gap filling" explanations---which, of course, does not apply to ID---then fill in the gaps yourself. Go find the fossils. And give us the molecular explanations for how so much information arose in so short a time period. We await.

    "Have you ever looked for fossils, and especially fossils of the earliest feathered animals, or the earliest mammals, or Cambrian, or Pre-Cambrian fossils? "

    Yes. When I was working on my degree in biology.

    "By the way, the 'explosions' you mention encompassed millions of years. How is that a problem for evolution, or the ToE, especially if some organisms/populations may sometimes be able to "rapidly and efficiently" respond and adjust to challenges?"

    I can only conclude that you are not familiar with population genetics. Motoo Kimura did a calculation for a mammalian species and concluded that for a single SNP to occur at some specific locus in the genome, that it would take, on average 5 or 6 million years (IIRC). Do you now see the problem? Do you now see why Kimura proposed his "Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution"?

    ReplyDelete
  27. the whole truth:
    ""We know that catastrophes (like the Flood) have occurred."

    And then lied:"

    Did I lie? How do you know that? Is it because you just know? Is that it?

    The context of that comment was Lyellian gradualism. Part of the gradualistic mentality was a reaction to the "catastrophism" of the Bible; hence, the implication was that gradualism arose partly because it was seen to be discrediting the Bible.

    Would you like to take back your accusation, or do you lack "morals"?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Lino D'Ischia said...

    As I've already mentioned, very likely, because of catastrophic events, the fossil record exhibits "explosions" of new body types; not just in the Cambrian, but at later epochs. This is completely non-gradualistic, and, therefore, completely non-Darwinian.


    Is is also completely non-true. Events like the Cambrian 'explosion' took tens of millions of years. We also have ample evidence of precursors to the Cambrian life forms. Go look up the Ediacaran fauna

    It should be a "difficulty on the theory"; but, of course, not for true believers.

    Why do you think evolutionary changes that the evidence shows took millions of years to occur should be a difficulty? Your 'population genetics' hand wave makes zero sense and does not answer the question.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Ritchie:

    "You can suspect whatever you like. But if you want others to take your hypotheses seriously then you need evidence. What is the evidence of a great global flood, as described in the Bible? "

    They've found scarring on the submerged sides of the rock of Gibraltar that suggests that the Mediterranean Sea was cut off from the Atlantic and that a great rush of water traversed its sides.

    In the Black Sea area, they've found evidence of a coastal village 300meters deep, under water's edge.

    You see: evidence.

    "Don't critically analyse evolution and assume that if you don't find it convincing the default answer is God. Lay out your theory too so we can compare their merits in parallel."

    My theory is that God created life, and that that life evolved, with God infusing the evolving life with information at certain critical moments.

    That's my theory.

    Your theory is Darwinism-did-it. But Darwinism has problems coming up with one SNP. And to think that it could possibly explain the origin of information is, well,..... amusing.

    LDI: Could you please give all of us here at this blogsite your "detailed scientific theory" that explains the origin of life?

    Ritchie: "That simple self-replicating molecules developed from non-living self-replicating chemical compounds."

    Is this detailed? You don't even tell us which molecules are supposed to be replicating.

    Is this scientific? Well, I don't know. It sure looks like "life by definition". I.e., there's these "non-living self-replicating chemical compounds", and from these, "living self-replicating molecules" developed.

    Were these compounds made out of molecules, or were they simply 'atoms'? Well, if we rightly assume the compounds are molecules, then your reformulated statement is this: "Simple self replicating molecules developed from non-living self-replicating molecules."

    Absurdity. It's a patent "just-so" story. But what else should we expect from Darwinists?

    " Digs in China over the last decade have revealed a trove of fossils detailing the transition of a small family of dinosaurs from reptile to bird. Psittacosaurus and Tianyulong, for example, had long, hollow quills, presumably used for insulation or display, which may well be early 'protofeathers'."

    A "hollow quill" is a far cry from a bird feather. They "may well be" early 'protofeathers'; but they might not be either. Do you want to present controversy as fact?

    ReplyDelete
  30. Lino D'Ischia said...

    Sir Fred Hoyle, life-long agnostic, became a believer in a superior intellect simply by reflecting that cytochrome c, without which life cannot replicate (hence, Darwinism is rendered impossible--as all of life), did the calculation for its arising from purely random events.


    It's also a fact that Hoyle, a non biologist, badly bollixed up his calculations. Here is a better estimate

    Coin tossing for beginners and macromolecular assembly

    "Then the Ghadiri ligase could be generated in one week, and any cytochrome C sequence could be generated in a bit over a million years (along with about half of all possible 101 peptide sequences, a large proportion of which will be functional proteins of some sort)."

    It's really quite simple. What are you waiting for? New laws of nature and chemistry?

    We're waiting for you to explain why all these pointless whines about ToE you keep making are actual problems.

    BTW, you have quite a few unanswered questions waiting for you on the other thread. Please stop ignoring them.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Lino D'Ischia said...

    In the Black Sea area, they've found evidence of a coastal village 300meters deep, under water's edge.

    You see: evidence.


    How is that evidence of a Biblical global Flood that covered the entire planet and killed every living thing save a handful of creatures on a wooden boat only 2500 years ago?

    My theory is that God created life, and that that life evolved, with God infusing the evolving life with information at certain critical moments.

    That's my theory.


    No, it's your unsupported hypothesis. Until you come up with a way to test it (including describing potential results that will falsify the idea), do the test, and come up with some positive evidence it will remain at best an insignificant pipe dream.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Thorton:

    "Is is also completely non-true. Events like the Cambrian 'explosion' took tens of millions of years. We also have ample evidence of precursors to the Cambrian life forms. Go look up the Ediacaran fauna"

    You're completely unfamiliar with ID. You don't seem to understand the severe limits of Darwinian mechanisms. So you blithely think that tens of millions of years is a sufficient amount of time for everything that the fossil record contains. This is just choosing to live in La-la-land, I'm afraid.

    Papers, written by Darwinian sympathizers, tell us that for 2-3 amino acids to change in an organism, 32 million years is needed. Why don't you think about things? Why do you just sweep these huge problems for Darwinism/population genetics/Modern Synthesis under the rug?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Lino D'Ischia said...

    You're completely unfamiliar with ID.


    No, actually I can summarize every last detail that is known about ID in one sentence:

    "An unknown designer or designers at an unknown place and unknown time using unknown mechanisms and for unknown reasons designed some biological things"

    Please feel fee to fill in the details Lino.

    Papers, written by Darwinian sympathizers, tell us that for 2-3 amino acids to change in an organism, 32 million years is needed.

    References please. I'd hate to think you're just another Creationist making empty claims and misrepresenting scientific research.

    Why don't you think about things?

    I do. I study and work with them on a daily basis. You haven't identified anything that's even remotely a problem.

    ReplyDelete
  34. lino, there are so many things wrong with what you've said that it's hard to know where to start.

    Let's see, you said:

    "As I've already mentioned, very likely, because of catastrophic events, the fossil record exhibits "explosions" of new body types; not just in the Cambrian, but at later epochs. This is completely non-gradualistic, and, therefore, completely non-Darwinian. It should be a "difficulty on the theory"; but, of course, not for true believers."

    First, define/describe what a "new body type" is. In other words, what exactly woulf fit the definition of a "new body type"?

    Then name a particular critter from the Cambrian or other period with a "new body type". Then state what length of time would fit the minimum time length of "gradualistic"?

    "Do I think most, if not all, "fossilization events" are catastrophic in nature? Yes. Could I be wrong? Yes. Do I have reason to believe I'm right? Yes. You've heard, of course, of the completely entire tree that is found in the fossilized forest in Arizona. How else do you explain this."

    If you're referring to fossilized trees in Petrified Forest National Park, this basically explains them:

    Over time, trees died or perhaps were knocked over by floodwaters or wind. Rivers carried the trees into the lowlands, breaking off branches, bark, and small roots along the way. Some trees were deposited on the flood plain adjacent to the rivers and others were buried in the stream channels. Most of the trees decomposed and disappeared. But a few trees were petrified, becoming the beautiful fossilized logs we see today. Most of the fossilized logs are from a tree called Araucarioxylon arizonicum. Two others, Woodworthia and Schilderia, occur in small quantities in the northern part of the park. All 3 species are now extinct.

    Some logs were buried by sediment before they could decompose while volcanoes to the west spewed tons of ash into the atmosphere. Winds carried ash into the area where it was incorporated into the deepening layers of sediment. Ground water dissolved silica from the volcanic ash and carried it through the logs. This solution filled, or replaced cell walls, crystallizing as the mineral quartz. The process was often so exact that replacement left a fossil that shows every detail of the logs’ original surfaces and, occasionally, the internal cell structures. Iron rich minerals combined with quartz during the petrification process, creating the brilliant rainbow of colors.

    http://www.petrified.forest.national-park.com/info.htm#tree

    There is much more detailed information available.

    Notice that there's no mention of a "completely entire tree". Some of the tree fossils there are more complete than others but to be "completely entire" they would have to have all of their branches, roots, and leaves. Floods and other causes are posited for the burial of the original trees or their parts. Floods may or may not be "catastrophic" and they vary widely in their extent. There's no evidence of a world wide flood in Arizona or any at other location on this planet.

    See part two.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Part two.

    Thorton said: "You are not articulating your position here well at all. Please try again."

    To which you (lino) replied:

    "Well, when people don't want to be disabused of their preconceptions, then, quite naturally, they find every fault in the world in that which confronts them."

    If only you and the rest of the godbots could see how thoroughly that applies to you and your attacks on evolution, evolutionary theory, Darwin, "Darwinists", "Darwinism", "DarwinDefenders", atheists, materialists, evolutionists, naturalists, agnostics, scientists, science, science supporters, etc., and even theistic evolutionists.

    One of the biggest problems is that you religious zealots just can't stand the thought that your ancestors were apes, amphibians, fish, etc., and that you weren't specially created in some alleged god's image.

    By the way, you said "catastrophic events". Plural "events". Was there more than one "the Flood"?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Thornton:

    "It's also a fact that Hoyle, a non biologist, badly bollixed up his calculations. Here is a better estimate"

    Sir Fred Hoyle was a world-class scientist and highly regarded astrophysicist who should have won the Nobel Prize. He was exceptionally strong at mathematics. He wrote a book, "The Mathematics of Evolution."

    But I guess the geniuses over at Talk.Origin are much brighter and more informed than he was.

    If you think his calculation was wrong, then you point that out to me right here. I await. . . .(your obfuscation)

    "We're waiting for you to explain why all these pointless whines about ToE you keep making are actual problems."

    By almost every metric imaginable, Darwinism is a complete disaster, wrong about everything. But to a great genius such as yourself, none of this bothers you.

    Let's hear it for group-think.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Thorton:

    ""An unknown designer or designers at an unknown place and unknown time using unknown mechanisms and for unknown reasons designed some biological things""

    This is not only plausible, it makes the most sense out of what we see.

    What doesn't make any sense at all is this: "species leading to new genera; new genera leading to new families; new families leading to new orders," for if you continue, then orders lead to new classes, and new classes to new phyla, and new phyla to new kingdoms. Hogwash.

    Read "The Edge of Evolution". You might learn something. Oh, excuse me. You're a liberal. You prefer myth.

    As to a reference, kindly look for it yourself. I've read portions of the paper, and their concluding section. And with a straight face they say they've refuted Behe's claims; it only will take 31.6 million years for the two amino acids to change.

    Look at Kimura's calculations in his book on the Neutral Theory. Read a paper by Douglas Axe. Again, you might learn something.

    ReplyDelete
  38. the whole (partial) truth:

    "First, define/describe what a "new body type" is."

    Substitute "body plan" for the Cambrian and look it up in Wikipedia.

    This is a great liberal trick. Left with no arguments, they then require their opponents to begin defining terms, questioning, quibbling and rejecting common sense meanings for these terms at every step. Liberals prefer myth and obfuscation. It's called: rationalization.

    You know full well what a body-plan is. In the case of the Mammalian Explosion we're talking about different body types, as, e.g., a horse and a whale, a mouse and an elephant. Quite different sizes, shapes, environments. And all of these changes took place in but millions of years. And it took the malarial parasite a million, billion replications to come up with a two amino acid change to overcome the effects of chloroquine. Now just think if one replication took one year instead of hours.


    "If you're referring to fossilized trees in Petrified Forest National Park, this basically explains them:"

    There, and in Yellowstone. They are "upright" trees. Gradualistic geology cannot explain this phenomena. If an upright tree, 20, 30, or 40 feet is fossilized, then the sedimentary layers didn't accrete at the rate of one inch per thousands of years.

    Petrified Trees: http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-deception-fossils_petrified_trees_catastrophism.html

    "One of the biggest problems is that you religious zealots just can't stand the thought that your ancestors were apes, amphibians, fish, etc., and that you weren't specially created in some alleged god's image."

    God created life as we find it around us. When he first made man, he made him in conformity with his plan for the rest of creation, in continuity with other living life forms. But there are two accounts of creation in the book of Genesis. The second account tells us how we are unique. God created a soul within us.

    What separates us from "apes, amphibians, fish, etc." is our consciousness, which makes present to us the intelligence we enjoy and the free will we can express. This is because we each have a soul.

    Now I have to say all of this simply to try and disabuse you of the notion that I'm troubled about where my physical body came from, as if this would define me.

    Maybe what's really at play here is that you atheists are afraid of death, and especially of what might lie beyond. So you try and find ways of keeping God out of the social sphere. Perhaps it eases your conscience.

    What do you think?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Geoxus:

    LDI:Or the emergence of the bird feather without any evidence whatsoever of any primitive forms?

    "Major LOL. Ignorance is such a bliss!"

    There is a paper by C. Foth, "On the identification of feather structures in stem-line representatives of birds" (May 2011), challenging the speculations of Xu and Zheng's 2010 paper. It would appear that the earliest known feathers already resembled recent bird feathers.

    Geoxus, have you even read a paper on any of this? Prum (2010) also challenges Xu and Zheng's findings.

    Ah, but, as you say, "Ignorance is bliss."

    Here's a quote from Foth's paper (discussion section):

    "Several problems and challenges face researchers trying to interpret feather structures foudn in the fossil record. As just shown, examples of simple and aberrant feather morphologies can be taphonomic in origin, and thus not represent INTERMEDIATE STEPS of feather evolution." (my emphasis)

    ReplyDelete
  40. lino said:

    "And, BTW, if you don't want religious "gap filling" explanations---which, of course, does not apply to ID---then fill in the gaps yourself. Go find the fossils."

    ID is nothing but a dishonest, religious and political agenda, promoted by uneducated, ignorant, arrogant, delusional IDiots.

    I have found thousands of fossils and have contributed to science in other fields too (and will continue to do so). You IDiots are the ones who try to fill gaps (whether real or imagined) with your insane god garbage, instead of getting out there and helping to understand nature. You're a burden.

    Why did you even bother getting a degree in biology (if you actually did)? You obviously didn't learn anything and are just another brainwashed, indoctrinated, group-thinking god zombie. It's obvious that you won't listen to anything but 'god-did-it', so there's no point in trying to educate you. I might as well just make fun of whatever you say, or ignore you.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Lino D'Ischia said...

    By almost every metric imaginable, Darwinism is a complete disaster, wrong about everything. But to a great genius such as yourself, none of this bothers you.


    So you keep saying, yet you can't actually demonstrate anything wrong. Empty bluster isn't going to make your case Lino. Of course, if empty bluster is all you've got...

    Thorton: "An unknown designer or designers at an unknown place and unknown time using unknown mechanisms and for unknown reasons designed some biological things"

    This is not only plausible, it makes the most sense out of what we see.


    Wow. If that's your idea of a productive scientific explanation then just...wow.

    As to a reference, kindly look for it yourself. I've read portions of the paper, and their concluding section.

    Sure you have Bunky. That's why you can't give me the title of the paper, or the authors. But I'm sure it supports ID (snicker) just like you say.

    BTW I see you abandoned your 'front-loading' brain fart as soon as the questions you couldn't answer piled up. What's your next paradigm-changing ID 'theory'?

    Are you ever going to get to the point with all this blither about geologic catastrophes? I'll ask again - do you think because *some* geologic features were caused catastrophically that they *all* were?

    ReplyDelete
  42. Thorton said, in regard to ID:

    "An unknown designer or designers at an unknown place and unknown time using unknown mechanisms and for unknown reasons designed some biological things"

    To which lino responded:

    "This is not only plausible, it makes the most sense out of what we see."

    Dang, that's what I've been saying for decades! I don't see how anyone can deny that the designer (which of course is the Flying Spaghetti Monster) designed everything with its noodly appendages!

    ReplyDelete
  43. Lino D'Ischia said...

    As to a reference, kindly look for it yourself.


    LOL! Just for a lark I did look it up Lino. But first I'd like to remind everyone what you claimed the paper showed:

    Lino: "Papers, written by Darwinian sympathizers, tell us that for 2-3 amino acids to change in an organism, 32 million years is needed."

    Here is the full paper by Durrett and Schmidt

    Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution

    The paper concerns the waiting time for a pair of mutations, the first of which inactivates an existing transcription factor binding site and the second of which creates a new one. If you are looking for a prespecified pair of mutations then in humans the wait time is over 100 million years. This would be analogous to picking one specific lottery number out of billions. But as they point out, in reality there are many sets of mutations that can do the same job, just as there are many tickets sold that can potentially win the lottery. That of course makes the makes the time someone will win considerably less.

    "Fortunately, in biological reality, the match of a regulatory protein to the target sequence does not have to be exact for binding to occur. Biological reality is complicated, with the acceptable sequences for binding described by position weight matrices that indicate the flexibility at different points in the sequence. To simplify, we assume that binding will occur to any eight-letter word that has seven letters in common with the target word. If we do this, then the mean waiting time reduces to ∼60,000 years. "

    The second half of the paper is devoted to exposing Behe's boneheaded errors in both biology and math in getting his "Edge of Evolution" bogus numbers. The 31.6 million generations (not years Lino) is not their claim: it's what you get if you plug Behe's made up BS numbers into the proper formula:

    "Indeed Behe's error is much worse. To further sensationalize his conclusion, he argues that “There are 5000 species of modern mammals. If each species had an average of a million members, and if a new generation appeared each year, and if this went on for two hundred million years, the likelihood of a single CCC appearing in the whole bunch over that entire time would only be about 1 in 100” (Behe 2007, p. 61). Taking 2N = 10^6 and μ1 = μ2 = 10^−9, Theorem 1 predicts a waiting time of 31.6 million generations for one prespecified pair of mutations in one species, with Formula having reduced the answer by a factor of 31,600."

    So you didn't read the paper. You only regurgitated parts you saw at UncommonlyDense, and even then you didn't understand what was being discussed.

    You're a LOLZ riot Lino! Few things are funnier that an ignorant Creationist on the web trying to bluff his way through scientific topics.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Thorton:

    "So you keep saying, yet you can't actually demonstrate anything wrong. Empty bluster isn't going to make your case Lino. Of course, if empty bluster is all you've got..."

    You've drunk the Kool-Aid, Thorton. There's no reasoning with you.


    "LDI:'This is not only plausible, it makes the most sense out of what we see.'

    Thorton: Wow. If that's your idea of a productive scientific explanation then just...wow."

    The scenario you mockingly laid out is plausible. That's why Fred Hoyle believed in Panspermia. That's why noted physicist Paul Davies thinks much along the same lines. Why? Because they KNOW that Darwinism is IMPLAUSIBLE, and that the ONLY way to make sense of the complexity of the cell is to invoke a designer, even it that designer is somewhere off in the unobservable universe.

    As to the mockingly laid out scenario "making sense out of what we see", this is the argument that Stephen Meyers makes in "The Signature in the Cell." He makes it quite convincingly.

    "Sure you have Bunky. That's why you can't give me the title of the paper, or the authors. But I'm sure it supports ID (snicker) just like you say."

    This last remark reveals you for the creep you are.

    Here's the title and citation: "Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution" http://www.genetics.org/content/180/3/1501.full.pdf

    And, gee, here's what they say in the abstract:

    'In particular, we examine the waiting time for a pair of mutations, the first of which inactivates an
    existing transcription factor binding site and the second of which creates a new one. Consistent with
    recent experimental observations for Drosophila, we find that a few million years is sufficient, but for
    humans with a much smaller effective population size, this type of change would take 100 million years.
    In addition, we use these results to expose flaws in some of Michael Behe’s arguments concerning
    mathematical limits to Darwinian evolution.'

    I guess I did misspeak. It wasn't 31.6 million years, it was 100 million years. Sorry I got that wrong.

    Just think, 100 million years for two amino acids to change. And how long would it take to come up with a protein from scratch, one that is 100 amino acids in length? Well, simple projection tells us it would take 10 billion years. Last I looked, the earth is only 5+ billion years old.

    Is this, too, empty bluster, dear Thorton?

    ReplyDelete
  45. the whole (partial) truth:

    "Dang, that's what I've been saying for decades! I don't see how anyone can deny that the designer (which of course is the Flying Spaghetti Monster) designed everything with its noodly appendages!"

    Heap scorn all you want. But the scenario is plausible. Darwinism is not. You can consult my response to Thorton.

    Asa Gray, an American botanist, a contemporary of Darwin, and a supporter of Darwin here in America, fell away from Darwinian theory when Darwin began suggesting that NS wasn't something that God used to bring about the evolution of diverse forms, but rather that it was a force, independent of God, capable of bringing about this same complexity and diversity all on its own.

    A way of putting this is that Gray thought Darwin had lost his mind in making this suggestion. Should I also point out that Alfred Wallace, the co-discoverer of putative NS, also disagreed with Darwin, and, along the same lines as Asa Gray. He could see no way that NS could work without the directing hand of God.

    IOW, no respectable thinking person would make such claims. But, alas, there are people who do make such claims, such as yourself TWT: but, of course, we have to ask the question: Are they respectable, thinking persons? You know, there are such things as theistic evolutionists. You should consider it.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Thorton:

    Here's where I got the 32 million years figure. From the paper I cited:

    "Indeed his error is much worse. To further sensationalize his conclusion, he argues that ‘There are 5000 species of modern mammals. If each species had an
    average of a million members, and if a new generation
    appeared each year, and if this went on for two hundred
    million years, the likelihood of a single CCC appearing
    in the whole bunch over that entire time would only be
    about 1 in 100’’ (Behe 2007, p. 61). Taking 2N ¼ 10
    6 and m1 ¼ m2 ¼ 10 9, Theorem 1 predicts a waiting time of 31.6 million generations for one prespecified pair of
    mutations in one species, with u2p having reduced the
    answer by a factor of 31,600."

    Do you see the inanity here? "Oh Behe was wrong. It wouldn't take 200 million years, it would only take 31.6 million years." How blind can people be? Humans haven't even exited for 31.6 million years. Pure inanity.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Thorton:

    Notice how the paper I cited was receive in September of 2007, but not published until August of 2008. Did they hesitate to publish it because of the problems in represents for Darwinism?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Lino D'Ischia said...

    T: "Sure you have Bunky. That's why you can't give me the title of the paper, or the authors. But I'm sure it supports ID (snicker) just like you say."

    This last remark reveals you for the creep you are.


    Biggest LOL to date!

    You now decide to 'provide' the paper AFTER I linked to it, and you copy from the conclusion AFTER I posted it!

    Even with that you still don't understand the paper, and you still misrepresent the conclusion and what the 31.6 million number means!

    Do you see the inanity here? "Oh Behe was wrong. It wouldn't take 200 million years, it would only take 31.6 million years."

    That's not what that calculation demonstrates. That result shows how Behe stupidly used the wrong formula with his BS scenario, and that if you use the right formula with his BS scenario he was still off by a factor of over 30,000. Of course neither the 200 million or the 31.6 million is the correct number for having any two-mutation binding site change.

    Just think, 100 million years for two amino acids to change.

    That's for two prespecified changes. But the paper points out life doesn't need those prespecified changes, that there are many more that work just as well

    Sorry Lino, but you've exposed yourself as a scientifically ignorant poseur. You don't understand the topic or the paper you quote-mined. It was also particularly slimy and dishonest of you to post the same paper and excerpts only AFTER I showed them to you and explained what they were, then act like you found it on your own.

    Again, I'll never understand the willful dishonesty of Creationists. I guess if they didn't lie to others as well as themselves they wouldn't be Creationists.

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  49. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  50. Lino D'Ischia said...

    IOW, no respectable thinking person would make such claims.


    Since you've demonstrated conclusively that you're an ignorant poseur who is neither respectable nor thinking, you're in no position to judge.

    ReplyDelete
  51. CH: Furthermore, in the past century another category of evidence has arisen that highlights the failure of this pillar of evolution: The small-scale change mechanisms themselves are highly complex. In other words, if evolution is true then it created incredibly complex cellular and molecular mechanisms so that, yes, evolution could occur.

    Complex cellular and molecular mechanisms represent adaptations. The question is, what is the origin of the knowledge used to build these adaptations? How does it conflict with neo-darwinism's explanation for how knowledge is created?. Please be specific.

    CH: In other words, these results indicate a built-in response mechanism. The population of cells rapidly and efficiently adjusts to the environmental challenge and these changes are passed on to later generations.

    First, programs are a form of knowledge. If some designer pre-programmed a built-in response mechanism, then how was this knowledge created? How do you explain it?

    A designer that was "just there" complete with the knowledge of how to pre-program a built-in response mechanism, serves no explanatory purpose. This is because one could more simply state that organisms "just appeared" with the knowledge of how to build these built-in response mechanisms, already present.

    How was the knowledge found in the yeast cell regularity system created?

    Second, you seem to be confused as to what Lamarck actually proposed. For example, Lamarck though that an iron worker who developed strong arms though exercise would have children who also had strong arms. But this is far from what we observe. Specifically, the ability for muscles to be strengthened or weakened from exercise or disuse is an adaptation controlled from the knowledge in our genes. Our earliest ancestors lacked these genes. Lamarckism does not provide an explanation for how this knowledge was created. Neo-Darwinism does.

    If you were isolated in an environment that lacks vitamin C, your nonfunctional pseudogene for vitamin-c synthesis would not be caused to improve. If it were, it would be cause you were a genetic engineer. Furthermore, your ability to make this improvement would be due to the creation of knowledge of how to repair your vitamin-c synthesis gene. We explain this knowledge through the process of creating theories of how to repair genes by conjecture, testing those theories by observations and discarding those with errors.

    In addition, Lamarck thought that improvements were driven by a tendency towards ever greater complexity which was built into the laws of nature. So why would we still see still see simpler creatures today, despite this tendency? Lamarck thought a continuous stream of simpler organism was being spontaneously generated out of nothing, as spontaneously generation was commonly accepted in Lamarck's time.

    As such, it's unclear why you think Lamrack was somehow "right". Nor is neo-Darwinism limited to what Darwin thought at the time.

    This is more of the same handwaving we see here on a regular basis.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Lino the poseur said...

    Notice how the paper I cited was receive in September of 2007, but not published until August of 2008. Did they hesitate to publish it because of the problems in represents for Darwinism?


    Apparently you're woefully ignorant of the peer review process in scientific journals too.

    Received date is when the original manuscript was presented to the publishers. After the appropriately qualified referee are identified the work is scrutinized. Referee recommended changes or areas that need improving are presented back to the author, who then makes the required modifications. This cycle can happen multiple times until the editors and referees decide the paper is of acceptable quality for publication, and can take months to years.

    The accepted date is the date the paper is deemed ready to publish. The paper or article then must wait until the journal has space for the work. That may be a few more months.

    The published date is when the article actually comes out in print, either hard copy of electronically.

    So no poseur, the time lag does not indicate any nefarious desire to hide 'problems'.

    BTW, why didn't Behe submit his work to a main line scientific journal for review instead of publishing in the popular press? It can't be because he feared being EXPELLED because he has tenure. The reason is because he knew his shoddy work and stupidity would get him laughed out of the building, which indeed it did. Behe is a laughingstock in the scientific community, and for good reason.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Thorton:
    "You now decide to 'provide' the paper AFTER I linked to it, and you copy from the conclusion AFTER I posted it!

    Even with that you still don't understand the paper, and you still misrepresent the conclusion and what the 31.6 million number means!"

    I didn't see your citation. Your vulgar response was inspiration enough for me to find it.

    And where is your apology? You accused me of "empty bluster". So, where is your apology?

    But, you're a creep; and an idiot besides, so this is all beyond you.

    "The paper concerns the waiting time for a pair of mutations, the first of which inactivates an existing transcription factor binding site and the second of which creates a new one. If you are looking for a prespecified pair of mutations then in humans the wait time is over 100 million years. This would be analogous to picking one specific lottery number out of billions. But as they point out, in reality there are many sets of mutations that can do the same job, just as there are many tickets sold that can potentially win the lottery. That of course makes the makes the time someone will win considerably less."

    Imbecile that you are, you somehow failed to notice this part of the paper:

    "Multiplying by 0.75 reduces the mean waiting time to 162 million years, still a very long time.
    Our previous work has shown that, in humans, a new transcription factor binding site can be created by a single mutation in an average of
    60,000 years, but, as our new results show, a coordinated pair of mutations that first inactivates a binding site and then creates a new one is very unlikely to occur on a rea- sonable timescale. To be precise, the last argument shows that it takes a long time to wait for two prespecified mutations with the
    indicated probabilities."

    Thorton:

    "The second half of the paper is devoted to exposing Behe's boneheaded errors in both biology and math in getting his "Edge of Evolution" bogus numbers. The 31.6 million generations (not years Lino) is not their claim: it's what you get if you plug Behe's made up BS numbers into the proper formula:"

    Not only are you uncritical in your thinking, you're dishonest. They devote less than one-half of a page in an eight page paper discussing Behe's calculation. And this is where they say Behe is wrong. No, for two mutations to occur giving rise to a new binding site, won't take millions of billions of years; it will only take 31.6 million years.

    Do you understand this at all, Thorton? They're assuming TWO mutations are needed---the rest is conveniently assumed to already be at hand---and they say a human population would take 31.6 million years to develop this new binding site. What is the split between chimpanzees and humans? Is it 7 million years? Let's say it's 15 million years? Well what is true for human populations is just as true for chimpanzees, adjustments being made for generation sizes in years, and effective population sizes. So, by the time that humans appeared, there wasn't enough time for ONE BINDING SITE to evolve per DARWINIAN MECHANISMS. Did I shout that out to you loud enough?

    IOW, DARWINIAN EXPLANATIONS FOR EVOLUTION ARE COMPLETELY IMPLAUSIBLE.

    Do you get it yet?

    Thorton:

    "So you didn't read the paper. You only regurgitated parts you saw at UncommonlyDense, and even then you didn't understand what was being discussed."

    Who, exactly, didn't read the paper? And, who, exactly, doesn't understand what they're reading?

    Thorton, go into the kitchen get a towel, and wipe the egg off your face.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Thorton:

    "Apparently you're woefully ignorant of the peer review process in scientific journals too."

    Apparently you're a buffoon. Most peer-review processes take less than six months. Just pay attention, you'll learn something.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Lino D'Ischia:

    "Apparently you're a buffoon. Most peer-review processes take less than six months. Just pay attention, you'll learn something."

    It often takes longer than six months, even at weekly journals like Nature and Science, and 11 months is not extraordinary at all. Your conspiracy theory is not supported by the facts at all, but the theory that you are a buffoon is gaining momentum.


    "So, by the time that humans appeared, there wasn't enough time for ONE BINDING SITE to evolve per DARWINIAN MECHANISMS. Did I shout that out to you loud enough?"

    The buffoon-and-idiot theory is also getting stronger. Any specific pair of mutations has a very low a priori probability, but the probability that some beneficial pair of mutations will end up in some individual members of a species is of course very high. You seem to misunderstand the simplest and most basic statistical concepts.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Even nylon degrading ability by bacteria can be newly obtained in laboratory cultures of pseudomonas aeruginosa which had no enzymes capable of degrading nylon. This was done in a only 9 days. The speed of this adaptation shows a special mechanism for such adaptation, not something as haphazard as simple random mutations and selection.

    The nylon example is one of the "poster boys" of evolutionists. If evolutionists gave out medals for their best evidence, P aeruginosa would get the Gold metal. Yet, this is not the blind watchmaker at work here. Plasmids are adaptive elements that make bacteria capable of adapting to many new things while maintaining the integrity of the main chromosome. This bacteria is famous for being able to adapt to new food sources. So, this really isn't an example of "blind watchmaker" evolution in action, but a designed potential (but bounded) within the design of the bacteria.

    Many examples of bacterial antibiotic resistance reside on plasmids.

    Evolutionary evidence is looking worse than even many skeptics suspected.

    The sad consequence of dumbing down adaptions to evolutionary processes could mean that disease fighting research is not focused enough on researching the designed adaption mechanisms in the cell.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Lino D'Ischia,

    IOW, DARWINIAN EXPLANATIONS FOR EVOLUTION ARE COMPLETELY IMPLAUSIBLE.

    From the paper:

    ...Theorem 1 predicts a waiting time of 31.6 million generations for one prespecified pair of mutations in one species...

    You are in good company, Lino. Cornelius doesn't understand likelihoods (which the quote from the paper talks about) either. If either of you did, you wouldn't keep claiming that just because some evolutionary scenario is unlikely, it automatically follows that evolution is improbable.

    For example, take you own genetic composition. The odds of you getting the combination of genes you did from your parents was something like 1 in 10^10 (btw, I can't remember the exact numbers here, but it doesn't really matter all that much). Go back 10 generations and the odds would be 1 in 10^100. The likelihood that genes would be inherited the way they were was ridiculously small. Does that mean that you didn't get your genes through recombination of your ancestors' gametes (+plus some other more stuff that makes above likelihood WAAYYY smaller)? No, the probability of this is quite large. But it does mean that you and Cornelius don't know what you are talking about.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Lino the poseur said...

    I didn't see your citation. Your vulgar response was inspiration enough for me to find it.


    You're lying. Of course you saw it. You couldn't even name the paper or author until I provided them.

    How's lying like that work for you in real life? Do you watch Jeopardy with your friends and try to impress them by yelling "I KNOW THE ANSWER!!" five seconds after Alex Trebek gives it to the audience?

    ReplyDelete
  59. Neal: This was done in a only 9 days. The speed of this adaptation shows a special mechanism for such adaptation, not something as haphazard as simple random mutations and selection.

    Neal, as I've pointed out above, the origin of mechanisms such as this would be the origin of the knowledge of how build that mechanism. The question is, how was that knowledge created?

    Again, A designer that was "just there" complete with the knowledge of how to pre-program a built-in response mechanism, serves no explanatory purpose. This is because one could more simply state that organisms "just appeared" with the knowledge of how to build these built-in response mechanisms, already present.

    Saying "God did it" might help you reconcile a belief in your favorite supernatural being with what we observe, but this isn't the question that evolutionary theory is addressing. As such, all you've done is push the problem into some unexplainable "mind" that exists in some unexplainable "realm."

    While you might be willing to accept theistic understandings, science is not. The explanation for our relatively recent and rapid increase in the creation of knowledge is that our criteria in science has focused on deep and hard to vary explanations. Mere possibilities are discarded, even before we bother testing them.

    And how do we explain why this process is successful? We explain it in that the truth consists of hard to vary assertions about reality. If the truth consist of easy to vary assertions about reality, then how do you explain our ability to make progress? Let me guess, you put divine revelation above deduction, induction and philosophy?

    We discard a near infinite number of mere possibilities every day in every field of science. If this isn't a form of critical rationalism, then what is it?

    Without a theory (explanation) there is nothing to criticize. As such we discard mere possibilities without even testing them. This is because, in science, observations are meaningless without an explanatory framework to extrapolate them in.

    Of course, feel free to enlighten us as to how is it possible to extrapolate observations without first putting them into an explanatory framework. Please be specific.

    ReplyDelete
  60. tedford said:

    "The sad consequence of dumbing down adaptions to evolutionary processes could mean that disease fighting research is not focused enough on researching the designed adaption mechanisms in the cell."

    Do you really think that scientists aren't looking for ANY and ALL mechanisms they can possibly find?

    EXACTLY how would research on mechanisms in cells change by assuming ID?

    And, what would you do if it were ever found that "the designer" is a big blob of goo that designed and created everything for reasons, and using methods, that are completely contrary to your religious beliefs?

    ReplyDelete
  61. Lino the poseur said...

    Do you understand this at all, Thorton? They're assuming TWO mutations are needed---the rest is conveniently assumed to already be at hand---and they say a human population would take 31.6 million years to develop this new binding site.


    No Lino, the paper didn't say that at all. The 31.6 million was from Behe's hypothetical '5000 species with 1 generation per year' mammal example. It shows Behe screwed up his calculations. That's another reason I know you didn't read the paper.

    So, by the time that humans appeared, there wasn't enough time for ONE BINDING SITE to evolve per DARWINIAN MECHANISMS. Did I shout that out to you loud enough?

    If you were waiting for one *specific* binding site to appear then yes. If you're waiting for *any* ones to appear then no. The only thing you're shouting is "LINO IS AN IGNORANT CREATIONIST POSEUR!" We've all figured that out by now.

    Thorton:"So you didn't read the paper. You only regurgitated parts you saw at UncommonlyDense, and even then you didn't understand what was being discussed."

    Who, exactly, didn't read the paper?


    You didn't read the paper.

    And, who, exactly, doesn't understand what they're reading?

    You don't understand what you're reading. But that never stopped any other Liar For Jesus from spewing empty rhetoric, so I doubt it will stop you.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Scott said, First, programs are a form of knowledge. If some designer pre-programmed a built-in response mechanism, then how was this knowledge created? How do you explain it?

    A designer that was "just there" complete with the knowledge of how to pre-program a built-in response mechanism, serves no explanatory purpose. This is because one could more simply state that organisms "just appeared" with the knowledge of how to build these built-in response mechanisms, already present. "

    --

    Evolutionists make up stuff to excuse the fact that the fossil record shows that organisms "just appeared"! Developing superstitious just so stories is preferable to evolutionists than saying organisms "just appeared"

    The design inference definitely is not equal to saying something "just appeared". Its predictions have been more successful than the failed Darwinian model. Perhaps someday we will have a better idea of how living cells could be made. It will not be a shake and bake process, but a precise and complex procedure with much intelligent intervention and guidance. It would make constructing the Intel core i7 processor look like building a Lincoln log cabin. Making a cell now from scratch with the tools and knowledge we have is about as close as we are to breaking the light speed barrier with a space ship.

    If you had one group of scientists researching the intelligent manufacturing process to create a cell from stratch

    vs.

    another group of scientists researching how purely natural processes could make a cell, which would make more progress?

    So far, the first group is way ahead. Note the work of the Ventner Institute. Was their work of the "shake and bake and hit with a bolt of lightning" style or a patented and complex intelligently designed procedure? Maybe all their work is equal to saying it "just appeared" according to your line of rationalism.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Thorton:

    "You're lying. Of course you saw it. You couldn't even name the paper or author until I provided them."

    What need is there for me to be lying about this? The paper is your undoing--despite your inability to fully understand its consequences.

    But I still await your apology. You intimated that I was making the paper up. But I wasn't. So any time you're man enough to apologize, I'll accept it.

    "How's lying like that work for you in real life? Do you watch Jeopardy with your friends and try to impress them by yelling "I KNOW THE ANSWER!!" five seconds after Alex Trebek gives it to the audience?"

    I'm impressed Thorton that you can spell "Jeopardy"; I didn't think you had it in you.

    Th:"If you were waiting for one *specific* binding site to appear then yes. If you're waiting for *any* ones to appear then no. The only thing you're shouting is "LINO IS AN IGNORANT CREATIONIST POSEUR!" We've all figured that out by now."

    Your ignorance, Thorton, overflows.

    First, my reference to a binding site was in reference to Behe's "Edge of Evolution", not the binding site that the paper's authors were after.

    Second, if you had read the paper---which either you haven't, or you haven't fully understood---then you would have realized that the author's Theorem #1 involves but two mutations, one that breaks up a binding site (which is needed to make room for a "new" binding site), and one that will properly configure the "new" binding site.

    Third, the binding site they were considering in their mathematical model had a binding site 10 nucleotides (3+ amino acids) long. In the case of the "new" binding site, they "presumed" the presence of the other NINE. Do you understand this? The other nine are already there. So, any one of 10 nucleotides can undo the original binding site---fairly easy to do given that most mutations are harmful. But one, specific nucleotide---both specific type of nucleotide and a specific location---was needed for the new binding site. Therefore the needed mutation had to be very specific. In the case of a human population, they said it was UNLIKELY that this would occur.

    So, I guess this means that you, along with "troy", and along with "Hawks", brilliant minds all, would tell these authors that they are wrong. That their understanding of statistics is flawed. That they don't know what they're talking about. Why, any old mutation will do, gosh darn it!

    ReplyDelete
  64. Thorton:


    Now let's examine the paper:

    Quote (1): "For population sizes and mutation rates appropriate for Drosophila, a pair of mutations can switch off one transcription factor binding site and activate another on a timescale of several million years, even when we make the conservative assumption that the second mutation is neutral"

    Notice: switching off one transcription factor binding site and activating another, for Drosophila takes several million years.

    Quote(2): "We see that in the simulation, the observed
    mean is 25% higher than the theoretical mean, so adding 25% to the prediction gives a mean waiting time of 4325 years.
    A second and more important correction to our prediction is that Theorem 1 assumes that the A mutation is neutral and the B mutation is strongly advantageous. If we make the conservative assumption that the B mutation is neutral, then the fixation probability Beta = 1/2N = 2 x 10 ^-7, and by Theorem 1 the waiting time increases by a factor of 1/(Beta)^1/2 = approx. 2,200 to 9 million years."

    Oh, you see, it wasn't several million years. It was 9 million years. I guess "several" sounds a lot better than 9 million years, doesn't it?

    Quote(3): "Ignoring this for a moment, Theorem 1 predicts a mean waiting time of 1 2Nu1 = u2........ = 34,600 generations; which translates into 3460 years if we assume 10 generations per year."

    So the figure for Drosophila, that is, 9 million years, assumes the flies reproduce 10 times a year.

    Quote (4): "We now show that two coordinated changes
    that turn off one regulatory sequence and turn on another without either mutant becoming fixed are unlikely to occur in the human population."

    There's that word again: UNLIKELY.

    From a little farther down in the same section:

    Quote (5): "Ignoring for the moment that one of the assumptions is not satisfied, Theorem 1 predicts a mean waiting time of 1/2Nu_1(u_2)^2 = 1.73/2 x 10^7 = 8.66 x 10^6 generations.

    Multiplying by 25 years per generation gives 216 million
    years."

    Now, adjusting the 9 million years of Drosophila, that has a generation time of a little over a month, to that for humans, with a generation time of 25 years, means that we have to mulitply the 9 million years by a factor of 250. So, for TWO new nucleotides, to be in the right place at the right time so as to inactivate a binding site and bring about a NEW binding site, assuming "conservative" assumptions, i.e., that the second mutation, B, is "neutral" instead of "highly advantageous", would require over 2 billion years.

    Do you idiots get this or not?

    Now, in good Darwinist fashion, having been completely defeated by the statistical model they've developed and want to present to the world, they obfuscate, and change the subject.

    Here's how they do it.

    "To be precise, the last argument shows that it takes a
    long time to wait for two prespecified mutations with the
    indicated probabilities. . . .

    If one can search for the new target
    sequence in 10^4 – 10^6 bp, then there are many more
    chances. Indeed since (1/4)^1/8 = approx. 1.6 x 10^ 5, then in 10^6 bp we expect to find 16 copies of the eight-letter word."

    DO YOU GET THIS???

    They've utterly failed to show any way of getting TWO mutations to bring about a new binding site, so they've switched to a "search" mechanism. Oh, you know, somewhere in the genome you'll find an 8 nucleotide sequence where 7 of the nucleotides are what you're looking for. This is called "bait and switch."

    This is how your side is "smart", "scientific", and "honest". How about "brainwashed"?

    ReplyDelete
  65. Thorton:

    LDI: Who, exactly, didn't read the paper?

    Thort: You didn't read the paper.

    LDI:And, who, exactly, doesn't understand what they're reading?

    Th: You don't understand what you're reading. But that never stopped any other Liar For Jesus from spewing empty rhetoric, so I doubt it will stop you.

    Why don't you just finish with: "Nana nana nana!" and then stick out your tongue?

    You're not a poseur. You're a palooka. Go look it up. Or maybe it will show up as a word on your favorite TV show: Jeopardy.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Lino the poseur said...

    DO YOU GET THIS???


    Amazing that you're still too stupid to understand the difference between the probability of a specific event, and the probability of any of the same type of event.

    Lino the poseur said...

    I'm a poseur. I'm a palooka. My favorite favorite TV show is Jeopardy, because I can pretend to know the answers after someone else tells me


    We know Lino. You've convinced us you're just another ignorant joke of a Creationist. No need to keep selling.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Hawks:

    "You are in good company, Lino. Cornelius doesn't understand likelihoods (which the quote from the paper talks about) either. If either of you did, you wouldn't keep claiming that just because some evolutionary scenario is unlikely, it automatically follows that evolution is improbable."

    You're out of your depth, Hawks.

    Behe's "Edge of Evolution" doesn't involve statistical models. It involves empirical facts. It involves the real world, not the world of mathematical models.

    What do we find? It takes P. falciparum 10^20 replications to come up with a two amino acid switch that protects it from chloroquine. Real world, Hawks.

    What would 10^20 replications be in human terms, given a generation time, per the paper under discussion (Darwinist scientists), of 25 years?

    2.5 x 10^21 years = a billion, trillion years.

    Now, "Hold on," you say. "Behe is wrong. He's got the wrong numbers."

    Okay. Let's say he's way off. Per the WHO, the number of people who died from malaria in 2009 was 781,000. Let's say a third of them were from P. falciparum. So, let's say roughly 250,000. An individual infected with P. falciparum can have up to 100,000 gametocytes/micro liter. The low end is 2,000/ micro liter. So for one milliliter of residue, this would be 2,000,000 gametocytes per person infected.

    So, in any given year, a very, very conservative estimate is that 250,000 people produce 100,000 gametocytes each. (Actually, they can produce upwards of 10^12 gametocytes per infection) = 2.5 x 10^10 replications. It took 20 years for Chloroquine resistance to come about. Let's say it comes about in one year.

    Then, the two amino acid substitutions needed for CR requires 2.5 x 10^10 replications. On the human scale, assuming 4 humans reaching reproductive age per generation (25 years), this means that 2.5 x 10^10 x 4/25 = 4 x 10^11 years for humans to come up with something comparable.

    These are extremely conservative numbers taken from the real, living world out there. And yet it would take, very conservatively, 400 billion years for humans to do the same thing.

    Will you guys ever come to your senses.

    Do you see, and now admit, how implausible, Darwinian scenarios turn out to be in the real world, let alone in mathematical models?

    ReplyDelete
  68. Thorton:

    "Amazing that you're still too stupid to understand the difference between the probability of a specific event, and the probability of any of the same type of event."

    Explain yourself. What do you mean by this. Give us details, please, oh brilliant one.

    Perhaps you can quote some books on probability and statistics. Perhaps you can point to published papers that make the same point you're trying to make.

    Or, perhaps, you could just point out exactly where I'm going wrong when I analyze the paper for you, point-by-point.

    We await of wizard of the internet airwaves.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Lino the poseur said...

    Will you guys ever come to your senses.


    LOL! Lino is still still too stupid to understand the difference between the probability of a specific event, and the probability of any of the same type of event.

    In actuality there are a huge number of ways for P. falciparum to develop resistance to chloroquine. It's happened at least ten times in the last fifty years, in some cases with up to five mutations being required. There are strains resistant to individual drugs, and strains resistant to combinations of drugs. Behe's idiocy is so far removed from reality as to be funny.

    Have you ever stopped to consider the ramifications of what you're arguing Lino? You want us to believe that your omnipotent loving God first designed malaria to painfully kill people, then deliberately stepped in later (multiple times actually) and designed a way for it to be drug-resistant so it could keep on painfully killing people.

    Yet you think that's the God we all should worship.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Lino the poseur said...

    Thorton:"Amazing that you're still too stupid to understand the difference between the probability of a specific event, and the probability of any of the same type of event."

    Explain yourself. What do you mean by this. Give us details, please, oh brilliant one.


    Not sure I can dumb it down enough for you to understand it, but try this.

    Go buy a Powerball lottery ticket.

    What is the probability you will win this week's drawing?

    What is the probability *someone* will win this week's drawing?

    Let us know when you've worked out the answers.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Neal: The design inference definitely is not equal to saying something "just appeared".

    Then, by all means, enlighten us with your explanation of how the knowledge this designer used to create these built-in response mechanisms was created.

    In the absence of said explanation, adding a designer to the mix serves no explanatory purpose. You might as well have said these organisms "just appeared", complete with the knowledge of how to build these response mechanisms, already present.

    Saying "God did it" might serve a purpose in reconciling the existence of your favorite variation of the Christian God with observations of adaptations of the biosphere, but this isn't an explanation. It's a theistic understanding. Science is not longer based on natural theology. Nor have you explained how "theistic understandings" result in our recent and and rapid increase in the creation of knowledge. That's just what God must have wanted.

    Is the claim that "theistic understandings" lead to progress is yet another "theistic understanding" we're all supposed to accept?

    Neal: Its predictions have been more successful than the failed Darwinian model.

    You haven't demonstrated that you have a firm grasp of the Darwinian model, let alone that it has failed.

    Neal: Perhaps someday we will have a better idea of how living cells could be made.

    And here my point has gone over your head.

    The origin of adaptations in species is the origin of knowledge used to build them. If you fail to do this , then you fail to explain the origin of the adaptations we observe.

    We already have an explanation for how the knowledge adaptations we observe in the biosphere is created. And it's one of the most successful in science as it explains multiple lines of observations across multiple fields.

    What's your explanation again? Oh, that's right, you don't have one. More specifically, you claim knowledge isn't created, but "just was".

    Neal: It will not be a shake and bake process ...

    At which point, you're repeating the same "mistake" yet again, despite being corrected over and over. How do you explain this behavior?

    - You know God exists.
    - You know God revealed he "did it".
    - You know we know God did it, but "Evolutionists" refuse to accept what they already know.
    - You know God want's us to know the truth.

    Therefore, God must want you to misrepresent evolutionary theory, so people won't believe it's true.

    Does that about cover it? If not, then what's with the continued misrepresentation?

    ReplyDelete
  72. Neal: Note the work of the Ventner Institute. Was their work of the "shake and bake and hit with a bolt of lightning" style or a patented and complex intelligently designed procedure?

    Following that line of reasoning…

    Note the scientists at the Ventner Institute. Each and every scientist has a complex material brain. In fact, every time we observed intelligent intention and guidance, we've also observed complex material nervous systems. So, intelligence and intent requires complex material nervous systems. Right Neal?

    Oh wait. That conflicts with your religious views, so you make an exception. Except it's not really an exception, as we do not actually use inductivism to justify conclusions. You just *think* you do.

    Neal: Maybe all their work is equal to saying it "just appeared" according to your line of rationalism.

    No Neal. It's not. Are you even reading my comments? Hear, see and speak no evil?

    We explain "all their work" in that we form theories via conjecture, which are tested by observations - those with error are discarded. And, unlike undirected processes, people can create explanations. This allows them to discard explanation-less possibilities, before they even bother testing them. Further more, they have specific goals. As such, it would come to no surprise that people would make rapid, specific progress towards a specific goal.

    Again, none of this contradicts the underlying explanation of knowledge generation behind evolutionary theory.

    Your point is?