Mollusca: A case study
Molluscs are mostly slugs and snails, but they also include larger, more advanced creatures, including the giant squid whose over-sized nerve cells have helped make it possible to study the physics and electrical properties of neurons.
The squids, along with others such as the octopus and cuttlefish make up the brainy side of the phylum and one would think (at least an evolutionist would think) that their more sophisticated central nervous systems would fall into the usual common descent pattern.
New research, however, suggests otherwise. It is a plot line that has played out over and over. Evolutionists arrange the species according to common descent, but when we look under the hood the species don’t cooperate. Contradictory differences in the supposedly closely-related cousins, and contradictory similarities in the supposedly distantly-related neighbors, betray evolutionary expectations.
In this case we now must believe that these advanced central nervous systems evolved independently, not once, but several times. Here is how one report summarized the new findings:
The findings, which rely on advanced statistical analyses, fundamentally rearrange branches on the mollusc family tree. In the traditional tree, snails and slugs (gastropods) are most closely related to octopuses, squid, cuttlefish and nautiluses (cephalopods), which appears to make sense in terms of their nervous systems: both groups have highly centralised nervous systems compared with other molluscs and invertebrates. Snails and slugs have clusters of ganglia – bundles of nerve cells – which, in many species, are fused into a single organ; cephalopods have highly developed central nervous systems that enable them to navigate a maze, use tools, mimic other species, learn from each other and solve complex problems.
But in Kocot's new family tree, snails and slugs sit next to clams, oysters, mussels and scallops (bivalves), which have much simpler nervous systems. The new genetic tree also places cephalopods on one of the earliest branches, meaning they evolved before snails, slugs, clams or oysters.
All this means that gastropods and cephalopods are not as closely related as once thought, so they must have evolved their centralised nervous systems independently, at different times.
That's a remarkable evolutionary feat. "Traditionally, most neuroscientists and biologists think complex structures usually evolve only once," says Kocot's colleague Leonid Moroz of the University of Florida in Gainseville.
"We found that the evolution of the complex brain does not happen in a linear progression. Parallel evolution can achieve similar levels of complexity in different groups. I calculated it happened at least four times."
Once again evolutionary expectations are at odds with reality, and once again the uncooperative empirical data are force fit to the theory. As with Aristotelianism, evolution does not add scientific knowledge. It does not tell us what to look for, and where to look for it. Quite the opposite, it is consistently turning up wrong. And yet the theory simply morphs to encompass the new, uncooperative results. No matter what is found, evolution is assumed to have created it. As one evolution remarked, concerning these new results, “This is more evidence that you can get complexity emerging multiple times.”
If you find it strange that I do not use the explanations of evolution, I shall say to you that these explanations appear to me to be themselves in need of explanation.
Religion drives science, and it matters.

This again? Science makes a new discovery - ToE, behaving like all scientific theories should and do, encompasses the new data - Cornelius touts this as a falsification!
ReplyDeleteIt is no such thing. Science - in every field - is always adjusting and refining itself based on the steady stream of new evidence pouring in. This is not new, nor is it problematic. It is exactly how science should be.
By the way, why do you accept these new findings of Kevin Kocot et al. as correct? Kocot is acting on exactly the same assumptions of MN as all the other scientists. So why are you so confident HE has got it right if the theory they ALL use is flawed?
The same thing happened to the Ptolemaic system, as technology brought more and more of the universe into view. The numbers required by the geocentric model became unwieldy.
ReplyDelete"The same thing happened to the Ptolemaic system"
ReplyDelete***************
You mean an ad hoc system requiring continuous divine maintenance was replaced by physical laws and mechanics?
CH: Once again evolutionary expectations are at odds with reality, and once again the uncooperative empirical data are force fit to the theory.
ReplyDeleteHow is this discovery "at odds" with the explanation that the knowledge of how to build each species, as found in the genome, was created by variation and natural selection? Please be specific.
CH: If you find it strange that I do not use the explanations of evolution, I shall say to you that these explanations appear to me to be themselves in need of explanation.
I find it disingenuous that you evaluating predictions and expectations of evolution independent from it's underlying explanation, which has already been provided.
So Cornelius, as a scientist you must know that science can only use the best available theory. That is the way it has always worked. It may not be true. Scientific theories, as opposed to evolution, can always be supplanted by a better theory. You constantly criticize evolution. However, until you offer a better theory you must acknowledge that evolution is the best choice for scientists to use, and teach. What do you have to offer that is better?
ReplyDeletePeter:
ReplyDelete"You constantly criticize evolution."
====
Wrong, what he criticizes are Evolutionists themselves and the crackpot proofs they offer in support of the TOE. As time pants on to the end the discussions of the traditional proofs exhaust themselves of any rational, logical explanations and they are left with escaping off into worlds of parallel universes and unrealities which no doubt are influenced by some long dead eastern religious thought which has been resurrected and given new life with a few modern tweekings here and there. Scottonianisms even used by others here seem to be the drug flavour of late.
Eocene,
ReplyDeleteAgain, It's unclear how we can have a reasonable discussion regarding what is or is not science without discussing subjects such as epistemology, various philosophies of science, whether it's even possible to extrapolate observations without first putting them into an explanatory framework, etc.
Eocene: ...which no doubt are influenced by some long dead eastern religious thought which has been resurrected and given new life with a few modern tweekings here and there.
The title of my blog, Veils of Maya, is a reference to a chapter from the book The Evolving Self, by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, with the same name. This chapter does not suggest that the external world is an illusion, but discusses several "Veils of maya" (illusion in Sanskrit) that can influence how we perceive the world. Specifically….
- What kind of information do you trust the most
- How we are influenced by our genome, such as who and what we find attractive in others, what energy we expend to eat, maintain social expectations, etc.
- How we are influenced by culture, such as our families, city, country, etc.
- How we are influenced by our reactions to situations, such as good fortune, challenges in our daily lives, what we value, the energy we expend to maintain a particular perception of ourselves, etc.
To quote a book review by scott London…
In The Evolving Self, Csikszentmihalyi looks beyond happiness to consider what we need to grow as individuals and as a society. His thesis is that "the good life" can only be achieved by becoming fully conscious. "To know ourselves is the greatest achievement of our species," he writes. "And to understand ourselves — what we are made of, what motives drive us, and what goals we dream of — involves, first of all, an understanding of our evolutionary past. Only on that foundation can we build a stable, meaningful future."
Rather than spending all of energy on keeping things the same, we should be spending this same energy directing the process of change. You can't stop the river from flowing, but you can help direct it's path for the better. But, again, this requires creating the knowledge of how how the river flows, the best places to direct it, etc.
In contrast, creationism ironically suggests that knowledge is not created. There is nothing fundamentally important which does not already exist in some holy book. All science can do is generalize observations to create theories. Things are the way they are because that's just the way the designer must have wanted it to be.
While I would consider myself to be a secular Buddhist, I do not subscribe to aspects that are typically associated with religion, such as the claim that the Buddha was born of a lotus flower or reincarnation. Instead, I see it as a maturing science of the mind; in the same sense as we no longer have Christian physics or Muslim algebra.
I'd also note that non-secular Buddhism is not a "long dead" religion.
Mister Scott:
ReplyDelete" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
====
Translation:
"You can't win, Darth..... If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." -- Obi-Wan --
Eocene:
ReplyDelete" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
Translation:
"LA LA LAAAA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! LA LA LAAAA!"
Eocene,
ReplyDeleteYou dismiss my arguments as illogical, irrational, crackpot claims that everything is Maya.
I debunk this claim with the details behind my blog title (and precious nick at UD) which clearely suggest the opposite.
In fact, that it's impossible to extrapolate observations without first putting then into some sort of explanatory framework has been known as early as 4th century BCE.
And what is your response? You obliquely repeat this claim with a quote from Star Wars.
Again, if my comments or arguments tread int "yellow submarine land", what ever that means, then you should have no problem pointing out exactly where and why.
Here is another evaluation of this article from crev.info:
ReplyDeleteFour miracles: Getting one central nervous system by an unguided process would seem unlikely enough, but now, without a twinge of shame, Ferris Jabr at New Scientist tells us it happened four times!
Jabr relayed, without any cross examination, the new idea of an evolutionary biologist at Auburn University, summarizing it thus: “The new findings expand a growing body of evidence that in very different groups of animals – molluscs and mammals, for instance – central nervous systems evolved not once, but several times, in parallel.” (While at it, the evolutionist rearranged the mollusc family tree.)
Because the new family tree shows that gastropods and cephalopods are not as related as once thought, it can only mean one thing:
“they must have evolved their centralised nervous systems independently, at different times.”
If this was a crackpot view from one university it might be forgiven, but a neurobiologist at Georgia State chimed in, “This is more evidence that you can get complexity emerging multiple times.”
This is an example of making interpretations wearing Darwinian glasses. Or as the writer of this site likes to say, it is a good example of interpretations of scientists who are drunk on Darwine and can't think straight.
Genetic Discoveries Uproot Darwin's Tree Of Life - notes
ReplyDeletehttps://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1S5wXsukzkauD5YQLkQYuIMGL25I4fJrOUzJhONvBXe4&pli=1
Venture Free Macgee:
ReplyDelete" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
Translation:
"LA LA LAAAA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! LA LA LAAAA!"
====
Kool, then it's not just me who doesn't speak and understand Ferengi!!!
tjguy said...
ReplyDeleteThis is an example of making interpretations wearing Darwinian glasses. Or as the writer of this site likes to say, it is a good example of interpretations of scientists who are drunk on Darwine and can't think straight.
Those "Darwinian glasses" are the end result of 150+ years of rigorous vetting, testing, refinement, and verification. That's how science progresses. It builds on the foundation of previously established work. Every new paper is not required to duplicate and re-verify all the knowledge that has been acquired before.
If you have a better system for amassing scientific knowledge than the one we use now, please present it.
Scott: Again, if my comments or arguments tread int "yellow submarine land", what ever that means, then you should have no problem pointing out exactly where and why.
ReplyDeleteEocene: Kool, then it's not just me who doesn't speak and understand Ferengi!!!
As I expected, no such details were provided. Rather, yet another oblique quip that repeats your original claim.
Since Cornelius has yet to respond, why don't you tell us how it's possible to extrapolate observations without first placing them in an explanatory framework?
Zachriel, Derrick, and others,
ReplyDeleteSo much for the objective nested hierarchy.
TIGuy: Four miracles: Getting one central nervous system by an unguided process would seem unlikely enough, but now, without a twinge of shame, Ferris Jabr at New Scientist tells us it happened four times!
ReplyDeleteTIGuy,
Again, the problem is probability arguments are inadequate to justify scientific conclusions. This is because they are based on induction.
Even if they were, what known evolved or created biospheres do we have access to which we can compare our own? How do we know how probable it is that a nervous system would evolve multiple times? Again, how can you *justify* the claim that evolution didn't occur based on probability?
As such, this merely appears to be more handwaving with the unwarranted expectation that predictions of evolutionary theory are prophecy and ignoring the underlying explanation in the first place.
That's just what God must have wanted is a bad explanation.
"As with Aristotelianism, evolution does not add scientific knowledge. It does not tell us what to look for, and where to look for it."
ReplyDelete*******
That's odd. these folks knew what they were looking for. Now they have more stuff to look for.
In the 200 years since Paley, what has ID inspired us to look for? How do you look for evidence of a design intervention?
bornagain77, the hit and run linking queen, actually thinks that science cares about what he believes. The rest of you godbots obviously think the same thing. You're all wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't who is right or wrong anymore but "godbot" made me laugh!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI've got to stop it with the sarcasm. It doesn't work on the internet.
ReplyDeleteCornelius Hunter:
ReplyDelete"If you find it strange that I do not use the explanations of evolution, I shall say to you that these explanations appear to me to be themselves in need of explanation."
=====
Here's an article from just a couple days ago where incense burning on the alter before the image of the Emperor is all that is necessary for proof. The journalist scribe never once questions the statements, just joyfully goes along with the flow in a sort of unspoken love affair with Darwinism.
New species of genuflecting plant buries its own seeds
Here are some of the better unsupported gems.
"Dr Struwe told the BBC that the the plant could have evolved its remarkable seed-planting ability for several reasons."
=====
Really, evolution evolves remarkable strategies for several REASONS ??? I didn't know they were capable of reasoning
! I also thought adaptational variation was independent of need ???
"Dr Struwe explained that other plants have evolved this same ability in order to survive on cliff walls - to deposit their seeds safely into cracks - or to avoid seed predators."
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So the other plants actually thought and reasoned other particular stategies to further their heritage on a cliff wall ??? Again, I thought evolutionary variation was independent of need ???
When did evolution gain consciousness, self-awareness and the ability to think and reason using purposed goal driven strategies to force anazing success stories into being ???
YAWN!!!
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"First you said Joyce 'admitted' what he did was Intelligent Design, then you say he didn't."
=====
Astonishing. Well let's recap and number the collection of LIES you've purposely floated to deflect off topic. These lies actually prove you never read the papers cited from the Script Research Institute's own website linked above. In otherwords, you have no clue as to what the experiment actually was about other than the erotic evolutionary fable fabricated by the journalist animating and giving life to Gerald's wet dream RNA-World mythology.
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LIE #1:
"Joyce et al may have recreated the conditions, but they did not guide the actual evolution of the bacteria, did they? All they did way simply set up an experiment, just as Lenski did with his bacteria - TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THE BACTERIA UNDER CONTROLLED CIRCUMSTANCES!!"
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THERE NEVER WERE ANY LIVE BACTERIA ANYWHERE. THERE'S NO COMPARISON TO LENSKI'S EXPERIMENT.
LIE #2:
"Seriously, leaving self-replicating organisms in a dish and waiting as some outcompete others is not ID."
====
THERE WERE NO SELF-REPLICATING ORGANISMS. THERE WAS NO CONSCIOUS SELF-AWARENESS of LIFE HERE.
LIE #3:
"Leaving enzymes in a dish to do their own thing, taking a random sample and repeating is NOT ID. And this is, in fact, what Joyce did."
THEY DIDN'T DO THEIR OWN THING AS GERALD JOYCE and GANG MANIPLUATED AND FORCED THESE LIFELESS MOLECULES TO DO AS JOYCE PLEASED; NOT THE LIFELESS MOLECULES.
Here's what they actually did, right from they own fudging the truth mouths:
"The improved enzyme(the one that was laboriously engineered in a Lab) fulfilled the 'PRIMARY GOAL' of being able to undergo perpetual ..."
"The 'ULTIMATE GOAL' was to take one of the RNA enzymes already 'DEVELOPED IN THE LAB' that could perform the basic chemistry of replication . . "
And rather than an intelligently designed experiment set up to let lifeless molecules do their thing without interference from an intelligence, here are Gerald Joyce's own words of what took place with the "500 cycles of forced adaptation" -
"This is what it looks like when a computer controls conditions that push molecules to adapt in order to thrive--survival of the fittest on the smallest scale possible."
and
"The scientists provided progressively lower concentrations of the fuel at set intervals, as a way 'DIRECT' the evolution of the RNA enzymes."
and
"Each time the size of the population of molecules reached a 'PREDETERMINED LEVEL', the COMPUTER(created by an intelligence) ISOLATED 1/10 th of the population--which now contained higher numbers of successfully adapted RNA enzymes—and mixed it with a new supply of chemical fuel."
and
"We starved these enzymes, pushing(forcing) them to become better and faster at forming a bond so they could reproduce themselves," Joyce says
=====
The biggest problem here is that your defense of Gerald Joyce is not in the actual intelligently manipulating every single move of the experiment to fit Gerald Joyce's GOAL-PURPOSE&INTENT driven experiment which was forced all along arrive at Gerald Joyce's needs, but you actually defend the storyline scenario which has nothing to do with handsoff observational reality.
This isn't an example of Crick's & Watson's researching of the brilliant observable efficient running mechanisms of DNA and inventing a 'MODEL' (Double Helix) to illustrate a reality to Joe/Jane Q-Public. This is the world of Gerald Joyce's personal science fiction being debated where nothing was observed doing it's own thing as you originally lied about.
Gerald Joyce and Gang were hardly innocent bystanders or casual observers, they were actually high level managers right to the very end.
Eocenette said...
ReplyDelete"Dr Struwe told the BBC that the the plant could have evolved its remarkable seed-planting ability for several reasons."
=====
Really, evolution evolves remarkable strategies for several REASONS ??? I didn't know they were capable of reasoning! I also thought adaptational variation was independent of need ???
When did evolution gain consciousness, self-awareness and the ability to think and reason using purposed goal driven strategies to force anazing success stories into being ???
OK, it's official. You're a bigger idiot than Tedford. A phenomenon having a reason and declaring the phenomenon was the result of its own conscious reasoning are two completely different things you effeminate moron.
If a forest ranger says "there are many reasons the forest fire could have started - lightning strike, embers carried in from a campfire, careless cigarette toss - do you think that means the fire made a conscious reasoned decision to start itself?
Those hormone treatments have addled both of your already pathetic brain cells. I hope you get your operation soon.
Ah, what's the matter Thordy ??? No more original material ??? No Fundies to feed on for breakfast ???
ReplyDeleteAnother huge LOLOLOL!!!
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"I typed 'bacteria' and that was a mistake."
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Incredible the way you excuse your own blantant lies of having never actually read the paper.
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Ritchie:
"If that's want to want to hear so you can beat off to it then be my guest."
=====
Puleeeeaze, save this kind of perversion for your "Significant 'Civil Unioned' Other".
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Ritchie:
"But you are being incredibly belligerent to call this a 'lie'. It was not a deliberate act of deception. I have planily stated they were lifeless, created enzymes many, many times."
=====
A HUGE LOLOLOL
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Ritchie:
"My point was that putting SELF-REPLICATORS in a dish and seeing what they will do is not intelligent design. And this is true."
======
And the true factual evidence is???? There were no self-replicators. These things are incapable of doing anything in nature. They(the artificially created unnatural molecules) ONLY accomplish Joyce's purposely intended goal of replication with Joyce and Company's own cheating manipulative intelligent designing fingerprints from start to finish.
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Ritchie:
"Spinning this off on a tangent that I'm an evil, demonic LIAR smacks rather of desperately clutching at straws."
=====
Evil ??? Demonic ??? Dream or imagine much ??? LIAR, absolutely. Although the motivational reasoning behind the blind arguments are associated with that original LIE as referenced at Romans 1:25.
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Ritchie:
"Joyce et al. did not personally manipulate each enzyme's every replication like some marionette puppeteer."
=====
Hey Marion, you're the only puppet here. I'm sure you and Joyce will be very happy together.
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Ritchie:
"Yup. The computer controlled the environment which the enzymes were in. So what? That's not ID. That's evolution within a controlled environment."
=====
Of course you are correct. Science has proven computers evolved in a junk yard of plastics, metals, glass, magnets, voltage and various chemical soil contaminants where one day an accidental explosion took place and out popped a computer with loads of informational software infecting it.
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Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"It's still not ID. This is just introducing a selection pressure. Nothing ID about that."
and
"Once again, yes. And once again, so what? This still isn't ID."
and
"Yup. See 'selection pressure'."
=====
Yes of course Joyce's manipulating guiding fingerprints should not be considered Intelligent Design, since we all know there is nothing intelligent about Joyce or his little band of tinkering Elves. Great point Ritchie!!!
The ONLY thing you've defended here is the FABLE fabricated by Joyce after the fact and that of the information manipulating biased journalists who spin this literary failure with loads of "Personification Fallacies" DESIGNED to Illustrate a worldview and nothing more. Words/Terms which have no business describing what lifeless unintelligent particles do or don't do. Things like the molecules producing "progeny", "offspring", "breeding", "outcompeting", "creating newer species" (Species ???) etc, etc, etc and never once attributing nor acknowledging any of his cheating intelligence inside the actual fable, other than honorary mention in the introductory credits.
Definition of competition:
1. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Environmental Science) Ecology the struggle between individuals of the same or different species for food, space, light, etc., when these are inadequate to supply the needs of all
2. The simultaneous demand by two or more organisms for limited environmental resources, such as nutrients, living space, or light.
These weren't living organisms, they were lifeless artificially designed particles created and designed by an Intelligence and these particles were incapable of consciously competing for anything. Molecules by the TOE dogma's own definition DO NOT in ANY WAY EVOLVE!!! Just ask Pedant.
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Ritchie:
"Both Joyce's enzymes and Lenski's bacteria just sat it a dish being 'fed' (don't take that literally in Jocye's case!!) and replicating."
=====
There is no comparison between Lenski's bacteria and Joyce's lifeless molecules. Joyce's molecules were NOT left to their own devices to do whatever. The man's lying cheating I.D. hijacking fingerprints manipulated from start to finish. The man simply told an imaginative STORY at the very end of the game influenced by his own biased mythological RNA-FABLED worldview. He himself explains and defines his method here:
" . . . a method of 'FORCED ADAPTATION' known as in vitro evolution."
And yet ??? It still wasn't Evolution to begin with!!!
It is clearly a myth and one you find a perfect fit in justifying a lifestyle choice.
Eocene -
ReplyDelete"Incredible the way you excuse your own blantant lies of having never actually read the paper."
Thump thump thump.
"Puleeeeaze, save this kind of perversion for your "Significant 'Civil Unioned' Other"."
Thump thump thump.
"A HUGE LOLOLOL"
Thump thump thump.
"And the true factual evidence is???? There were no self-replicators."
Eocene, you're missing the point by a country mile.
Joyce's enzymes were self-replicators. They were programmed to be.
Does the fact that these enzymes were created imply ID? No. The whole point of the experiment was to see how the enzymes changed from the moment the experiment began to the moment it ended, and identify the forces that caused that change. The enzymes, when the experiment began, were their own agents. That's not to say they were alive, or conscious, or self-aware, it just means they were left to their own means. It is as if they were merely tiny robots who had been given a single command: replicate yourself!
What did they start with? enzymes which had been created to self-replicate. What did they end up with? "Super molecules... molecules that could grow faster and faster on a continually dwindling source of chemical fuel."
Joyce had not programmed these enzymes to reproduce fast and on a dwindling source of fuel. The enzymes had adapted to environmental pressures - selection pressures. That is the point. Selection pressures had demonstrably driven the enzymes to adapt. Not consciously, obviously. It's just that the ones better able to replicate were... well, better able to replicate. This, in a nut-shell, is evolution.
Let's just remember it was you who mentioned this experiment - as a demonstration of ID! The only way you could possibly equate this with ID is if your idea of ID is that God set in place the very first spark on the road to life - the very first self-replicator, and then DID NOT INTERVENE DIRECTLY IN ANY WAY with the development of that organism into the millions of forms of life we see today. Just to be clear, is that your opinion of the ID position?
"Evil ??? Demonic ??? Dream or imagine much ??? LIAR, absolutely. Although the motivational reasoning behind the blind arguments are associated with that original LIE as referenced at Romans 1:25."
And you know my motives, how exactly?
"Hey Marion, you're the only puppet here. I'm sure you and Joyce will be very happy together."
Thump thump thump
"Of course you are correct. Science has proven computers evolved in a junk yard of plastics, metals, glass, magnets, voltage and various chemical soil contaminants where one day an accidental explosion took place and out popped a computer with loads of informational software infecting it."
No-one is claiming that. Of course computers are designed and created. But so what? What is the relevance of that to this experiment? I would use designed, created equipment to measure how fast my apples are falling to the ground. That doesn't mean gravity is a non-natural force.
"Yes of course Joyce's manipulating guiding fingerprints should not be considered Intelligent Design, since we all know there is nothing intelligent about Joyce or his little band of tinkering Elves. Great point Ritchie!!!"
Thump thump thump.
You know, you really wouldn't look out of place in a gorilla enclosure at the zoo.
Eocene (cont)
ReplyDelete"These weren't living organisms, they were lifeless artificially designed particles created and designed by an Intelligence..."
That doesn't matter in the slightest.
"...and these particles were incapable of consciously competing for anything."
How do you work that out? If you program 10 robots to 'pick up an apple', but have them in a room with only 5 apples, then of course there will be competition. At least half the robots will fail at their task.
"There is no comparison between Lenski's bacteria and Joyce's lifeless molecules. Joyce's molecules were NOT left to their own devices to do whatever. The man's lying cheating I.D. hijacking fingerprints manipulated from start to finish."
You're totally wrong. The only difference between Lenski's experiment and Joyce's was that Lenski used E.Coli bacteria and Joyce used artificial enzymes. That's it. And that difference counts for absolutely squat all in terms of the forces which shape the development of their subjects.
"The man simply told an imaginative STORY at the very end of the game influenced by his own biased mythological RNA-FABLED worldview."
Do you HONESTLY think scientists can just make-up whatever hoo-ha they like? Really?
Again, in science there is a process called peer review. It is in the reviewer's interests to rip the experiment they are studying to shreds. It's their job, and it is their every interest to make a good one of it. Scientists do not give each other easy rides, because if someone points out a mistake that someone made AND someone else peer reviewed without picking up on, everyone looks a fool. And yet you think you - YOU! - can spot glaring errors that everyone else, including the experts whose very job is it to pick up on such things have missed/are hoping no-one will notice...!?
If you were a rational person with a shred of humility in your body, that alone would give your pause that you might not have added this up right.
"It is clearly a myth and one you find a perfect fit in justifying a lifestyle choice."
Seriously, what lifestyle choice? Is this yet another in your long list of gay jibes? Do you STILL think calling your opponent gay makes you look mature, clever and informed? Really? Really really? Are you sure you aren't actually 14 after all?
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"Does the fact that these enzymes were created imply ID? No!"
=====
Perfect!!! Now show us an documented example of where Gerald Joyce lucked out and those perfect and specifically engineered enzyme molecules were simply morphed using nothing more than undirected purposeless physics and chemical cocktails blended with no goal in mind. Make sure it follows the scientific method, as any of a number of people may want to follow the same procedure and arrive at the same EXACT conclusions of Gerald Joyce and the 7 Dwarfs.
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Ritchie:
"That's not to say they were alive, or conscious, or self-aware, it just means they were left to their own means. It is as if they were merely tiny robots who had been given a single command: replicate yourself!"
=====
WRONG. They were NEVER left to their own devices as Joyce calls his own experiment "FORCED ADAPTATION" with an Intelligently Design Computer Program selecting out those with desirable qualities. That had ZERO to do with NATURAL SELECTION. Joyce and company played the part of TinkerBell.
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Ritchie:
"This, in a nut-shell, is evolution."
=====
This is another flat ot LIE, since the official NeoDarwinian Dogma definition has evolution taking place after conscious life begins. Lifeless Molecules DO NOT Evolve.
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Ritchie:
"Let's just remember it was you who mentioned this experiment - as a demonstration of ID!"
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Of course. Nobody is arguing against what Joyce's experiment actually illustrated, even IF RNA-World were a truth. It takes a manipulative designer to step by step intervene, manipulate and rig an experiment to arrive at purposely intended outcomes. The argument is against what took place afterwards with the lies promoted forth in the fabrication of this being proof of the RNA-World Fable and then shouting from the rooftops, "Evolution has now been proven a fact, it's not just a theory anymore."
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"Thump thump thump."
"Thump thump thump."
"Thump thump thump."
"Thump thump thump."
"Thump thump thump."
=====
Meanwhile, back at the 'Mustang Ranch', Ritchie and . . . . "
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Ritchie:
"That doesn't matter in the slightest."
=====
Translation:
"It seems to me that I am still right"
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Ritchie:
"How do you work that out? If you program 10 robots to 'pick up an apple', but have them in a room with only 5 apples, then of course there will be competition. At least half the robots will fail at their task."
=====
Translation:
"It still seems to me that I am right"
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Ritchie:
"You're totally wrong. The only difference between Lenski's experiment and Joyce's was that Lenski used E.Coli bacteria and Joyce used artificial enzymes. That's it. And that difference counts for absolutely squat all in terms of the forces which shape the development of their subjects."
=====
Translation:
"It still seems to me that I am right"
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Ritchie:
"Do you HONESTLY think scientists can just make-up whatever hoo-ha they like? Really?"
=====
Considering the mess our natural world is presently in, the answer is an obvious YES!
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Ritchie:
"Again, in science there is a process called peer review."
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Here's the problem. Who on Earth qualify as the 'Panel of Peers' ??? What are their qualifications ??? Does qualifying to be on the Panel demand you have the politically correct ideology and worldview ??? Are they chosen because they have a great historical reputation for defending the mandated as a fact evolutionary dogma ???
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Ritchie:
"If you were a rational person with a shred of humility in your body, that alone would give your pause that you might not have added this up right."
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WOW! Massive amounts of the usual Double Standards and 'Pot Calling Kettle Black'.
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Ritchie:
"Seriously, what lifestyle choice?"
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This is exactly the VERY argument. It is about lifestyle choices no matter what the freewilled choice is or how it effects others around you. The absolute right of self-determination to be pursued as one sees fit. See Genesis chp 3. Also Romans 1:25. The subject really never has been about evolution vrs creation as it is about the right to determine what is good and what is bad. Evolution was invented to challenge other religious worldviews. The desparation of hijacking I.D. concepts and labling them as directed evolution illustrates the frantic nature of defenders behind this faith.
Erik to Olof:
ReplyDelete"Hej Olof, who is that raving and ranting maniac on the street corner?"
Olof:
"Oh, him. He's an insane American, who moved here a couple of years ago. It's one of those end-timers, always on about the end of the world, Armageddon, and that we must repent before it's too late. You know the type. Mostly harmless, although he does tend to harass handsome young men more than others."
Erik:
"Thank goodness for the internet."
Troylent Green:
ReplyDelete"Thank goodness for the internet."
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Speaking of Global Warming cures and Lizard's growing fur coats, have you seen the latest Scientific Secularist fix-it-pill idea for turning around the global climate change ???
Let's Pump More Man Made Chemicals Into Our Earth's Atmosphere To Replicate What Volcanoes Do To Us!!!
Scott said, "How is this discovery "at odds" with the explanation that the knowledge of how to build each species, as found in the genome, was created by variation and natural selection? Please be specific."
ReplyDelete--
You're asking for specifics, yet don't provide them yourself? Variation and natural selection are terms that are spouted off at 30,000 feet without much detail. Evolutionists often respond with, "we don't need to know EVERY detail". Funny, that's what you demand of alternatives to evolution. Evolutionists get touchy when asked for details. Can you imagine the CERN scientists throwing a tantrum when asked for details? Meanwhile evolutionists get that warm fuzzy feeling when Richard Dawkins gets out his BOX EYE with four parts explains the evolution of the eye.
Scott, come down from 30,000 feet and provide the details please.
Tedford the idiot said...
ReplyDeleteYou're asking for specifics, yet don't provide them yourself? Variation and natural selection are terms that are spouted off at 30,000 feet without much detail. Evolutionists often respond with, "we don't need to know EVERY detail". Funny, that's what you demand of alternatives to evolution. Evolutionists get touchy when asked for details. Can you imagine the CERN scientists throwing a tantrum when asked for details? Meanwhile evolutionists get that warm fuzzy feeling when Richard Dawkins gets out his BOX EYE with four parts explains the evolution of the eye.
Scott, come down from 30,000 feet and provide the details please.
What details do you want Tedford? Science has details about thousands of evolutionary processes. For example, here's some details on the evolutionary pathway for the YAP (Yes-associate protein) family of genes which control organ size in animals.
The Evolutionary history of YAP and the Hippo/YAP pathway
Now where are your details, any details, of how Intelligent Design Creation was done?
Eocene -
ReplyDelete"Perfect!!! Now show us an documented example of where Gerald Joyce lucked out and those perfect and specifically engineered enzyme molecules were simply morphed using nothing more than undirected purposeless physics and chemical cocktails blended with no goal in mind"
I never claimed that's what happened! If you program a robot to perform an action, you are not performing that action yourself, are you?
Likewise it was the enzymes which Joyce had created which did the replication. Not Joyce himself. Joyce did not directly, personally intervene in the replication of the enzymes.
"WRONG. They were NEVER left to their own devices as Joyce calls his own experiment "FORCED ADAPTATION" with an Intelligently Design Computer Program selecting out those with desirable qualities. That had ZERO to do with NATURAL SELECTION. Joyce and company played the part of TinkerBell."
No, the computer is adding a SELECTION PRESSURE.
"This is another flat ot LIE, since the official NeoDarwinian Dogma definition has evolution taking place after conscious life begins. Lifeless Molecules DO NOT Evolve."
Not technically true. All evolution needs to kick in is the first self-replicator. Exactly what this was and whether it was alive is actually immaterial and, to be fair, not a clearly defined distinction anyway.
ME: "If you program 10 robots to 'pick up an apple', but have them in a room with only 5 apples, then of course there will be competition. At least half the robots will fail at their task."
YOU: Translation: "It still seems to me that I am right"
You're hand-waving away what seems to me to be a perfectly valid point. In Joyce's lab, the enzymes were all programed to reproduce, but with tightly controlled levels of the microfluid being introduced, the materials necessary to actually DO so were limited. So some would lose out. Some would be better at their objective than others. Competition.
"ME: Do you HONESTLY think scientists can just make-up whatever hoo-ha they like? Really?
YOU: Considering the mess our natural world is presently in, the answer is an obvious YES!"
If something doesn't really work then it poses no great threat. There's no need to be scared of guns in a world where guns don't really work.
Science is a powerful tool, and indeed it can be devastating in irresponsible hands. But its power lies precisely in the fact that it does work! Your apparent logic that 'It can be devastating when misused, therefore it doesn't work' is profoundly poorly thought-through.
Eocene (cont)
ReplyDelete"Here's the problem. Who on Earth qualify as the 'Panel of Peers' ??? What are their qualifications ???"
They are assorted figures who are highly qualified in the fields relevant to the paper.
"Are they chosen because they have a great historical reputation for defending the mandated as a fact evolutionary dogma?"
Without evidence, refuting ToE marks someone as having no grasp of biology whatsoever. That said, nothing in science is sacred. ToE is not simply above criticism. You just have to do it SCIENTIFICALLY. If you do it unscientifically, then it marks you out as being a non-scientist.
"WOW! Massive amounts of the usual Double Standards and 'Pot Calling Kettle Black'."
Umm, how exactly? I'm not the one putting my own personal opinion above those of the experts. You are!
"This is exactly the VERY argument. It is about lifestyle choices no matter what the freewilled choice is or how it effects others around you."
Being gay isn't a lifestyle choice. It isn't a choice at all.
"The absolute right of self-determination to be pursued as one sees fit. See Genesis chp 3. Also Romans 1:25. The subject really never has been about evolution vrs creation as it is about the right to determine what is good and what is bad. Evolution was invented to challenge other religious worldviews."
Totally untrue.
ToE is a perfectly scientific theory like any other. It outlines the natural processes by which life develops, just as the theory of gravity describes the natural forces by which objects with mass interact.
It just happens to be your RELIGIOUS BELIEF (ie, one on no evidence at all) that God made life on Earth as it is (more or less) and therefore ToE MUST be WRONG!! What's more, since it poses a challenge to YOUR religious beliefs, ToE therefore is the gateway to atheism and all the terrifying spectres that conjours up in your mind.
The one possibility that you will never, ever give even a moment's serious consideration (because religious people are brain-washed not to) is that it is your religious beliefs which are wrong.
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"I never claimed that's what happened!"
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Aaaand, if that never took place, then the alternative is they were Intelligently Designed for the goal directed purpose of replicating when given the proper chemcial fuel catalyst for doing so. Very Good Ritchie!
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Ritchie:
"No, the computer is adding a SELECTION PRESSURE."
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And the computerized selection pressure(a metaphor inserted for the purpose of excusing oneself from having to explain anything in detail) was provided by the intelligence which created it to do so in the first place. In other words, the computer was programmed to carry out the wishes, goals and intended purpose of a designer. Perfect!
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Ritchie:
"All evolution needs to kick in is the first self-replicator."
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No, it's called consciousness and self-awareness of a living organism. Chemicals catalyzing in a chain reaction of patterns sticking togather is not life.
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Ritchie:
"Exactly what this was and whether it was alive is actually immaterial and, to be fair, not a clearly defined distinction anyway."
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In other words if you don't know the answer, it is therefore immaterial. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
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Ritchie:
"You're hand-waving away what seems to me to be a perfectly valid point. In Joyce's lab, the enzymes were all programed to reproduce, but with tightly controlled levels of the microfluid being introduced, the materials necessary to actually DO so were limited. So some would lose out. Some would be better at their objective than others. Competition."
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YAWN! Here it is again for the folks actually interested in what actually took place as opposed to the fable read back to us.
Stephen Meyer Responds to Stephen Fletcher's Attack Letter in the Times Literary Supplement
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Ritchie:
"Science is a powerful tool, and indeed it can be devastating in irresponsible hands."
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Yeah, sure. Science is a powerful tool. It's strictly a power and wealth creation driven animal. It should be a good tool, but more often than not it has been misused and abused by the error prone humans subject to the same imperfections that all humans have. Therefore it will most likely always be misused. Keep watching the world news
eocene barfed:
ReplyDelete"Yeah, sure. Science is a powerful tool. It's strictly a power and wealth creation driven animal."
Then why are you taking advantage of, and enjoying the benefits of, so many things that science has figured out and made available?
FYI- Definition of "Science" (from Latin: scientia meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.
ReplyDelete--
Saying "science says" or "science has figured out" is not a good use of the word... people are the ones that say and figure things out. Pencils only write as good as the people holding them.
Science is a human enterprise and therefore involves all the good and bad that humans do. Darwinism is a mind sucking vortex. Evolutionists wooly thinking, smokescreens, denials, bullying, and tautologies represent the worst of human enterprises.
Eocene -
ReplyDelete"Aaaand, if that never took place, then the alternative is they were Intelligently Designed"
No. The enzymes were created PRIOR to the experiment. From the moment the experiment began the enzymes were replicating all by themselves.
"And the computerized selection pressure(a metaphor inserted for the purpose of excusing oneself from having to explain anything in detail) was provided by the intelligence which created it to do so in the first place. In other words, the computer was programmed to carry out the wishes, goals and intended purpose of a designer."
When I drop the apples in my experiment, the sensor I set up to record the speed of the apple's fall is a 'computer was programmed to carry out the wishes, goals and intended purpose of a designer'. That doesn't mean I control gravity.
"No, it's called consciousness and self-awareness of a living organism. Chemicals catalyzing in a chain reaction of patterns sticking togather is not life."
It is not necessary that the self-replicating agents by conscious or self-aware for evolution to take place. As this experiment deftly demonstrates.
"In other words if you don't know the answer, it is therefore immaterial."
No, it's immaterial because it doesn't matter.
"Yeah, sure. Science is a powerful tool. It's strictly a power and wealth creation driven animal. It should be a good tool, but more often than not it has been misused and abused by the error prone humans subject to the same imperfections that all humans have."
Again, how can you misuse a tool that doesn't work? Science is powerful precisely because it DOES work. But you seem to be arguing "Science can be misued. Therefore it doesn't work." Can't you see this makes no sense?
Neal, playing word games won't get you anywhere, and my question still stands:
ReplyDelete"Then why are you taking advantage of, and enjoying the benefits of, so many things that science has figured out and made available?"
Nic, eocene, you, and other IDiots constantly bash scientists, evolutionists, materialists, "Darwinists", naturalists, atheists, agnostics, etc., but none of you hesitate for a second to take advantage of and enjoy the scientific discoveries and products that have been figured out and made possible and available by any those people.
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"Being gay isn't a lifestyle choice. It isn't a choice at all."
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It is indeed a choice, but recent science over the past 4 decades has exposed what the abuse and misuse of science itself has caused. Indeed it also most likely that it isn't a choice for some who've been exposed to chemicals which manipulate specific developmental information at the Fetal stage of new life growth, which screw up the wiring and genetic programming and actually create an unstoppable homosexual behavior in numerous living creatures. The researchers who for the past 4 defcades who have warned the Scientific Community against this scientific catastrophy have been demonized and vilified by the touchy feely Politically Correct gang who make this a political hot potato subject to talk about.
I've brought this up before and not one of the local Kool-Aid "Science IS Infallible" sucking pimps here will even take a few minutes to read the material or watch the documentaries I've provided. The Researchers behind the the warnings of Bisphenol-A, Nonylphenols, etc, etc, etc which are destroying the fetal development of all life from birds, to fish, to amphibians, to Humans etc from being able to reproduce are not even creationists. In fact they are evolutionists. Some species in nature are actually going extinct as a result of this power wealth hungry abusive science and this isn't a localized phenomena, it GLOBAL. Here they are again.
Our Stolen Future
The Disappearing Male
The terms created by the Researchers who observe what is happening in nature have coined new terms like Gay Seagulls. Gay Fish. Yet what happened in the year 2009 ??? Multiple Groups out there were championing how normal and natural Homosexuality is because it can be found everywhere in nature. Yet this was the very thing warned about back in the 1980s when Theo Colborn and others shouted the alarm bells. Instead of listening to them, the Science Community denomized them as heretics.
Here's a prime example of a local pimp with personal issues of it's own on championing honosexuality as a natural wonder of nature when it has NEVER historically been so before.
Zachriel (May 23, 2010):
"The human body is not designed for hypodermic needles, at all. Or riding motorcyles, with or without a helmet. However, promiscuity and homosexuality occur throughout human culture, and even in other species."
Central Park Zoo's gay penguins ignite debate
Indeed, for some it may not be a choice, but nothing more than unfortunate screwed up genetic programming brought about by the misuse and abuse of science by men and women driven by nothing more than selfishness and greed. To date, the Industries at fault refuse to acknowledge anything.
Continued....
ReplyDelete"
Ironically, it was a Lab experiment dealing with breast cancer cells in a plastic petri dish which were growing and multiplying when they shouldn't have, that got other outside researchers investigating what was causing this. Only the presence of estrogen should have caused this to happen, but to their knowledge the experiment was controlled. The cells were in contact with plastic leached nonylphenol molecules which were masking themselves as a sort of artificial estrogen hormone which encouraged the growth of these breast cancer cells. It coloured and contaiminated the research. If that's the case, then one has to wonder what other Lab experiments in any field of research have been tainted by chemical trace elements excreting from the pores of these plastic dishes because the Laboratories wanted to save money by purchasing cheap container research tools. How many other experimental data out there could be debunked as far as less than true factual or accurate results ???
There are just billions of variables to consider here aren't there.
Not Even Close:
"Nic, eocene, you, and other IDiots constantly bash scientists, . . "
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Absolutely false. Science is NOT the target as is continually and cowardly propaganded by you