If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case.
While providing a test of falsification sounds scientific, this was just another one of Darwin’s protectionist moves. For in science, theories should be tested against realistic criteria, not universal negatives. How could a scientist, who is skeptical of the notion that all of biology spontaneously arose on its own, prove that a biological structure “could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications.”
Biology is chocked full of such structures, but there is a catch. Darwin was requiring that the skeptic prove that such structures “could not possibly” have evolved. Given the evolutionist’s liberal use of imaginative just-so stories, this requirement would seem practically impossible.
Darwin was not looking for examples that show evolution to be unlikely. He did not say “did not likely” evolve. He said “could not possibly” evolve. Darwin was erecting high walls around his idea.
Nonetheless, Darwin’s defensive strategy was doomed to fail. The idea is so scientifically flawed that even its own Maginot Line could not save it. Today, the question is not is there a structure that “could not possibly” have evolved, but rather which one of the thousands and thousands of examples in biology should we pick? In recent years proteins have provided yet another army of examples where even the evolutionist’s own numbers show a twenty seven order of magnitude shortfall between expectations and reality.
What is interesting about all this is not that evolution is riddled with failures, but the denial that is universal amongst evolutionists. In fact, evolutionists not only deny there is any problem, they insist evolution is a fact, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Some wonder why the failure of Darwin’s own Maginot Line left evolution unharmed. How could evolution be the worst theory of all time yet nonetheless continue to hold onto its facthood status?
The answer is that evolution is deemed a fact because evolutionists know the world could not have been intelligently designed. The world’s evil, inefficiency and inelegance all mandate a thoughtless creative force. Like a fancy sports car with its steering wheel on backwards, this world doesn’t make sense. No designer capable of creating this world would have intended for it in the first place.
But of course intent is not a scientific quantity. The evolutionary mandate derives from secret knowledge, not public knowledge. Its foundation is gnosis, not scientia.
And so how well evolution fares in light of empirical science matters very little. That is a topic for research. It falls in the category of how evolution occurred, not if evolution occurred. No amount of empirical, public, evidence can change the private fact of evolution. Gnosis trumps scientia every time.
All of this means that one cannot argue with evolutionists from the scientific evidence. What a designer would and would not have intended cannot be learned from a scientific experiment. It does not derive from empirical findings. Rather, evolution is mandated by personal, religious beliefs that are not open to debate. Evolutionists accuse their skeptics of religious bias when they themselves are the ones who infected science with a metaphysical Trojan horse.
All of this means that evolutionary predictions and their falsifications mean very little. If a prediction or a test, such as Darwin’s proposal above, turns out to be false, it simply means that the test was ill conceived. Perhaps evolution needs to be modified, but it cannot be refuted.
As Lakatos explained, the sub hypotheses can be forfeited. They are the protective belt shielding the theoretical core. Evolution’s theoretical core is creation by natural means. The particular details don’t so much matter. Selection can be replaced by drift, gradualism can be replaced by saltationism, random mutation can be replaced by pre programmed adaptation, the evolutionary tree can be replaced by a web, even common descent can be replaced. But naturalism cannot be replaced.
So when a prediction goes bad, it is the fault of the sub hypothesis, not the theoretical core. Naturalism can never be questioned, regardless of the evidence. A good example of this came in a paper by evolutionist David Penny published last month in which Penny explained how we should understand the failure of a prediction he used to uphold evolution thirty years ago.
As I have explained, evolution predicts that different traits point to the same tree. Various evolutionary effects may cause occasional differences between the trees, but roughly speaking, if different traits are used to reconstruct the evolutionary tree, they should produce similar trees.
Thirty years ago Penny attempted to use this prediction to make evolution truly testable. In a paper published in the world’s leading science journal, Penny argued that dissimilar trees would “refute the existence of an evolutionary tree”:
Our strategy is to take different protein sequences for a common set of taxa, find all the minimal (and near minimal) evolutionary trees and then compare them. Should the probability be high that these trees are unrelated, this would indicate that the protein sequences do not contain similar evolutionary information, and hence would contradict the existence of an evolutionary tree for those taxa.
Penny used five proteins (cytochrome C, hemoglobin A, hemoglobin B, fibrinopeptide A and fibrinopeptide B) to infer the evolutionary relationships between eleven different species (rhesus monkey, sheep, horse, kangaroo, mouse, rabbit, dog, pig, human, cow, and ape). There are millions of different ways that eleven species can be arranged in an evolutionary tree. Penny used the protein comparisons between the different species to judge which of the arrangements would be more likely if they indeed were related via evolution. Penny repeated this process five times, once for each protein, and he obtained similar results. That is, the most likely evolutionary trees suggested by the five different proteins were all similar (actually there were significant differences, but as usual the test was against purely random trees). Penny concluded that “the existence of an evolutionary tree for these taxa is a falsifiable hypothesis.”
Today, thirty years later, things have changed. We now have orders of magnitude more sequence data and Penny’s prediction has been falsified many times over. There are plenty of protein and DNA sequences that do not agree, but produce incongruent evolutionary trees.
So did evolutionists reevaluate their beliefs? Did Penny conclude there is no evolutionary tree? Of course not. As Penny now writes in his new paper, he is “not rejecting the tree per se but enriching the tree concept into a network.” The new answer is horizontal gene transfer, which evolution is supposed to have created against all odds so that evolution could happen.
Evolution’s falsified predictions—and there are many, most of evolution’s predictions have turned out false—do not matter. For none of this changes the evolutionist’s certainty that the alternatives are wrong. In other words, evidence against evolution does not remedy the problems with the design hypothesis. The intent problem is no less a problem simply because biology doesn’t support evolution. Perhaps we can’t figure out how the sports car came to be, but it still has its backwards steering wheel. It must not have been intended that way.
Religion drives science, and it matters.
The joys of the Procustean bed. No "fact" is immune from being lengthened or shortened in order to fit the theory.
ReplyDeleteKind of like global warming - hot day? Global warming. Cold day? Global warming. Same old average day? Global warming. See how easy it is to do science?
And it is the Christians who hate to reason huh?
Kind of like global warming - hot day? Global warming. Cold day? Global warming. Same old average day? Global warming. See how easy it is to do science?
ReplyDeleteThe point that climate scientists are trying to make is that climate change occurs on a much longer scale than the daily weather. So it's not a matter of whatever happens on a particular day, or even weeks or months. You have to examine the global climate on decadal and longer scales.
Perhaps we can’t figure out how the sports car came to be, but it still has its backwards steering wheel. It must not have been intended that way.
ReplyDeleteI think of so-called "bad designs" in biology not at all in terms of "intentions" but rather that they demonstrate the constraints of evolutionary processes. For example, the recurrent laryngeal nerve. It's not that no designer would create such a thing, but that the path that the nerve takes makes sense if one considers a gradual evolution from fish to mammals.
Norm Olsen:
ReplyDeleteI think of so-called "bad designs" in biology not at all in terms of "intentions" but rather that they demonstrate the constraints of evolutionary processes. For example, the recurrent laryngeal nerve. It's not that no designer would create such a thing, but ...
No, if the recurrent laryngeal nerve ran just the way we wanted it to run, evolution would nonetheless be unharmed. Optimal designs, and there are many, never hurt evolution one bit.
It's all about gnosis. See:
http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/12/evolutionists-and-giraffes-recurrent.html
Norm, climate has varied since the creation of the earth and the earth has experienced warming periods even with the last few hundred years. The Global warming alarmists are like evolutionists in that they take the data out of context and believe an illusion. Let's take a "decadal" look as you suggest. Has the average global temperature increased between 1998 and 2008? No.
ReplyDeletehttp://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/pnas-201102467.pdf
Now if you go back to when the Vikings were farming Greenland, you have warming, but not caused by humans.
Warmists, like evolutionists, think science should be based on taking a foregone conclusion and forcing the data to fit. They are so convinced of their position, the means justifies the end even if the means is crooked.
Cornelius, your argument is confused. You're wheeling out two very knackered and broken drums to beat on yet again: "Evolution is unfalsifiable" and "Evolution has been falsified" as if they don't blatantly contradict each other.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between science and religion is that scientists don't revere people or books. People can have good ideas and come out with great inventions, and we can respect them for that, but no-one and no book is considered infallible.
Darwin gave us a brilliant idea. That doesn't mean he was perfect. He gave it to us in Origin of Species. But that book isn't perfect either. But scientists took that idea and used it as a framework through which to study biology, and despite your determined ignorance, the supporting evidence for it has stacked up and up.
You claim ToE has been falsified many times. But I have seen you putting forward examples of this, and you repeatedly demonstrate only your own scientific ignorance. You totally shamelessly misrepresent work (it is far too pernicious to be accidental), you quote-mine, you 'translate' the work of others (REAL scientists) to practically the point of deception. And when you are short of work to misrepresent you point merely to new discoveries and claim "Ah-HA, evolutionists didn't see that one coming - this must falsify ToE" as if scientific theories were supposed to have powers of divination.
In reality, ToE has not been falsified at all.
But putting that aside for a moment, don't you get tired of ranting the same utterly hollow and religious arguments over and over? Instead of railing against science like King Canute before a sea of evidence, why not do some positive science? Why not go out and write a paper like a real scientist? Get a grant. Perform an experiment. Publish it in a scientific journal. Doesn't it trouble you that the sum total of scientific output from the ID corner is basically chuff all? Doesn't it hit you like a haddock to the face that people's scientific productivity hits the ground like a whore's drawers the moment they turn to ID?
Isn't it time to stop the armchair commentary and the backseat theology? Prove to us you understand science - do some.
Norm, the recurrent laryngeal nerve seems to be the latest wiping boy for so called bad designs by evolutionists. With nearly ever other example having evaporated under the scrutiny of scientific research I see this one frequently.
ReplyDeleteBut, like the others, Richard Dawkins kool-aid drinkers will need to keep searching...
"The fact is that even in humans in 0.3 to 1% of the population the right recurrent laryngeal nerve is indeed shortened and the route abbreviated in connection with a retromorphosis of the forth aortic arch. ("An unusual anomaly ... is the so-called 'non-recurrent' laryngeal nerve. In this condition, which has a frequency of between 0.3 - 1%, only the right side is affected and it is always associated with an abnormal growth of the right subclavian artery from the aortic arch on the left side" - Gray's Anatomy 2005, p. 644.; see also Uludag et al. 2009; the extremely rare cases (0.004% to 0.04%) on the left side appear to be always associated with situs inversus, thus still "the right side"). Nevertheless, even in this condition its branches still innervate the upper esophagus and trachea (but to a limited extent?). Although this variation generally seems to be without severe health problems, it can have catastrophic consequences for the persons so affected: problems in deglutition (difficulties in swallowing) and respiratory difficulties (troubles in breathing) (see Rammerstorfer 2004; moreover "dysphagia (if the pharyngeal and oesophageal branches of nonrecurrent or recurrent inferior laryngeal nerve are injured)" - Yang et al, 2009)"
Also, "If mutations for such a short cut are possible and regularly appearing even in humans (not to mention some other non-shorter-route variations), - according to the law of recurrent variation (see Lönnig 2005, 2006), they must have occurred already millions of times in all mammal species and other vertebrates taken together from the Silurian (or Jurassic respectively) onwards. And this must also be true for any other (at least residually) functionally possible shorter variations of the right as well as of the left recurrent laryngeal nerve. Inference: All these 'short-cut mutations' were regularly counter-selected due to at least some disadvantageous and unfavourable effects on the phenotype of the so affected individuals (including any such mutants in the giraffes). Hence, they never had a chance to permeate and dominate a population except for the above mentioned very small minority of the (right) 'non-recurrent' laryngeal nerve, which is perhaps already accounted for by the genetic load ("The embryological nature of such a nervous anatomical variation results originally from a vascular disorder, named arteria lusoria in which the fourth right aortic arch is abnormally absorbed, being therefore unable to drag the right recurrent laryngeal nerve down when the heart descends and the neck elongates during embryonic development." Defechereux et al. 2000). "
I guess evolutionists will need to find another example. Falsifying evolutionist claims is simply a gift that just keeps giving!
Ritchie:
ReplyDeleteCornelius, your argument is confused. You're wheeling out two very knackered and broken drums to beat on yet again: "Evolution is unfalsifiable"
Whereas in reality I said that evolution *is* falsifiable (but it doesn’t matter to evolutionists).
Neal -
ReplyDeleteNo-one thinks the globe has always had the same global climate. Of course there have been warming and cooling periods - natural ones. But that doesn't mean the current one is natural too. The question is whether humans are affecting the current global climate, and the scientific consensus is that we are.
But of course then we get the people who will always pick denial over facts they don't like. People who WANT there to be a God, and so spend all their time desperately (and rather fruitlessly) trying to make room for one in science. People who don't WANT human-induced climate change to be happening, and so simply deny that too. And if anyone disapproves, well their stupid or driven by an 'agenda', even if those people are in the overwhelming majority and are made up of people whose job it is to understand the truth of such matters.
Fortunately the scientists of the world are largely mature grown-ups who face facts rather than run from them. No-one WANTS man-made climate change to be true. But it is. We can deny it and watch the globe get steadily worse (but we'll be dead soon. Who gives a damn what sort of world our grandchildren have to inherit, eh?) or we can grow up and do something about it.
Cornelius, I'll ask again.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you doing to ensure your own personal confirmation bias isn't greatly skewing the 'scientific' claims you make here?
Cornelius -
ReplyDelete"Whereas in reality I said that evolution *is* falsifiable..."
I see. Thank you for clearing that up. I will certainly reference this the next time either you or your canned applause here drag out the 'ToE is unfalsifiable' strawman. I don't imagine I'll be waiting long...
That aside you still missed the thrust of my post. Why is it that all the actual SCIENCE is being done by evolutionists? Why is it the ID crowd have been as productive as a tortoise up a tree? What does that say about the scientific viability of ToE - and of ID?
Such a brilliant post thanks Dr Hunter!
ReplyDeleteCH: How could a scientist, who is skeptical of the notion that all of biology spontaneously arose on its own, prove that a biological structure “could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications.”
ReplyDeleteIf we interpret this particular quote literally and out of context, he can't.
However, it quite unreasonable to assume that the significant changes to science since Darwin actually made this statement / prediction wouldn't effect how predictions are formed, interpreted and described.
This is why I keep going back to the point that predictions should be interpreted in the light of our best available explanations. This includes both Popper and Deutsch's explanations as to why we've only fairly recently made significant advances in the creation of knowledge. (see this comment on the pervious post)
CH: In recent years proteins have provided yet another army of examples where even the evolutionist’s own numbers show a twenty seven order of magnitude shortfall between expectations and reality.
Perhaps you write articles days in advance, but there are several relevant issues with this assumption that have yet to be addressed. Until then, this is hand waving.
CH: All of this means that one cannot argue with evolutionists from the scientific evidence.
From an earlier quote from Deutsch…
So what would refute the Darwinian theory of evolution? Evidence which, in the light of the best available explanation, implies that knowledge came into existence in a different way. For instance, if an organism was observed to undergo only (or mainly) favourable mutations, as predicted by Lamarckism or spontaneous generation, then Darwinism’s ‘random variation’ postulate would be refuted. If organisms were observed to be born with new, complex adaptations – for anything – of which there were no precursors in its parents, then the gradual-change prediction would be refuted and so would Darwinism’s mechanism of knowledge creation. If an organism was born with a complex adaptation that has survival value today, yet was not favoured by selection pressure in its ancestry (say, an ability to detect and use internet weather forecasts to decide when to hibernate), then Darwinism would again be refuted. A fundamentally new explanation would be needed.
Note that Deutsch wrote "Evidence which, in the light of the best available explanation…"
Again, this a reference to our best explanations of how things *are* when we make the observation, rather than what someone in the past predicted we should "experience" in the future. Predictions are not prophecy.
CH: What a designer would and would not have intended cannot be learned from a scientific experiment. It does not derive from empirical findings.
ReplyDeleteYou actively excluding the designer by making this claim, then complain that the designer isn't accepted as science. How is this reasonable?
CH: Rather, evolution is mandated by personal, religious beliefs that are not open to debate. Evolutionists accuse their skeptics of religious bias when they themselves are the ones who infected science with a metaphysical Trojan horse.
Still waiting on a coherent comprehensive criteria as to how one determines if a theory actually entails a theological claim and if it's the primary underlying justification for that conclusion. Until then, your objections appear arbitrary.
CH: Today, thirty years later, things have changed. We now have orders of magnitude more sequence data and Penny’s prediction has been falsified many times over.
Yes, things have changed, including our best explanations regarding how things *are*. Yet you're still interpreting his prediction as what we would experience thirty years from then. It's unclear how this is a reasonable approach to interpreting predictions, rather than naive empiricism.
So, it's not that predictions do not matter, it's that they are not prophecy. Nor do they make claims about what we will experience, but rather how things *are*.
I wrote: So, it's not that predictions do not matter, it's that they are not prophecy. Nor do they make claims about what we will experience, but rather how things *are*.
ReplyDeleteWhat do I mean by this? How is this related to the problem of induction?
For example, if for some reason we had never observed temperatures below 72 degrees, it's quite possible that our theory of water would completely fail to predict it would change from a liquid to a solid at or below 32 degrees. This wouldn't mean our theory was "false" before then, or that it was falsified by observations. It's means that scientific theories are not prophecy. They do not claim to take into account an infinite number of un-conceived explanations and possibilities that might effect what we might experience in the future.
A more formal description of this concept is Fallibilism.
From the Fallibilism entry on Wikipedia...
Unlike scepticism, fallibilism does not imply the need to abandon our knowledge - we needn't have logically conclusive justifications for what we know. Rather, it is an admission that, because empirical knowledge can be revised by further observation, any of the things we take as knowledge might possibly turn out to be false.
Ritchie said, "Fortunately the scientists of the world are largely mature grown-ups who face facts rather than run from them".
ReplyDeleteIt's difficult to see who you mean. "Hockey- Stick" Mann? "The glacers are melting" UN IPCC warmers? The scientist whose observation and article that several polar bears had drowned in the Arctic Ocean helped galvanize the global warming movement? He is on administrative leave and being investigated by the feds for "integrity issues".
At least 1,000 scientists have registered their dissent with the warmers. Are they grown-up?
“The dysfunctional nature of the climate sciences is nothing short of a scandal. Science is too important for our society to be misused in the way it has been done within the Climate Science Community.” The global warming establishment “has actively suppressed research results presented by researchers that do not comply with the dogma of the IPCC.” -- Swedish Climatologist Dr. Hans Jelbring, of the Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics Unit at Stockholm University. Is Dr Jelbring a grown-up?
What is it about evolutionists that insist on putting down the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with them about "science"? Such behavior betrays your lack of evidence.
Narcissism: the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others.
ReplyDeleteNeal -
ReplyDelete"It's difficult to see who you mean."
Difficult to see who I mean after you sneeringly dismiss important scientific bodies and authoratative agencies with a wave of your hand, you mean?
Those who endorse man-made climate change incude, but certainly are not limited to:
- The IPCC, an international scientific body specifically set up to monitor all data relevant to climate change, investigating its causes and assessing its risks.
- NASA
- MET office (UK)
- Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
- Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
- European Geosciences Union
- International Council for Science
- National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (US)
- National Research Council (US)
- Network of African Science Academies
- Royal Meteorological Society
- Geological Society of London
- National Science Academies of 32 nations
- European Academy of Sciences and Arts
- International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences
- Royal Society of New Zealand
- Royal Society of the United Kingdom
- Polish Academy of Sciences
- American Association for the Advancement of Science
- American Chemical Society
- American Physical Society
- Australian Institute of Physics
- European Physical Society
- Federation of Australian Scientific and Technological Societies
- American Geophysical Union
- European Federation of Geologists
- European Geosciences Union
- Geological Society of America
- Geological Society of Australia
- Geological Society of London
- International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
- National Association of Geoscience Teachers
- American Meteorological Society
- Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
- World Meteorological Organization
- American Quaternary Association
- International Union for Quaternary Research
- American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians
- American Institute of Biological Sciences
- American Society for Microbiology
- Australian Coral Reef Society
- Institute of Biology (UK)
- Society of American Foresters
- The Wildlife Society (international)
- American Medical Association
- American Public Health Association
- World Federation of Public Health Associations
- World Health Organization
- American Statistical Association
- International Association for Great Lakes Research
The journal Science in 2004 published the results of a survey of 928 papers on climate
change published in peer-reviewed journals between 1993 and 2003. They found that three-quarters of the papers either explicitly or implicitly accepted the view expressed in the IPCC 2001 report that human activities have had a major impact on climate change in the last 50 years, and none rejected it.
What is it about religious fundies that insist that a consensus opinion by the majority of authoratative bodies is rendered utterly negligible as long as SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, no matter how biased, under-qualified or ill-equipped with supporting evidence, disagrees?
Oh dear, narcissism sounds a very undesirable trait, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteJust think how insufferable people afflicted with it might be. They might, for example, proclaim loudly that they were the Chosen People of all the peoples of the world, that the supreme creator and arbiter of the entire universe actively cared for such lowly specs as them. So much, in fact, that he granted their requests and petty prayers - they could effectively weild the powers of an omnipotent being with a few words of supplication.
They might imagine the unfathomable vastness of the universe was created just so that they themselves might be brought about. They might imagine themselves to be the very pinnicle of creation. They might imagine they and they alone held the keys to knowledge, wisdom and morality. They might imgine they were destined to spend the rest of eternity enjoying absolute bliss with their fellows while everyone else was cast down to the eternal agony and torture which they so very richly deserve.
Yes, it sounds a very undesirable trait indeed.
Ritchie, let's just take the top two on your list:
ReplyDelete“We're not scientifically there yet. Despite what you may have heard in the media, there is nothing like a consensus of scientific opinion that this is a problem. Because there is natural variability in the weather, you cannot statistically know for another 150 years.” -- UN IPCC's Tom Tripp, a member of the UN IPCC since 2004 and listed as one of the lead authors and serves as the Director of Technical Services & Development for U.S. Magnesium.
“Any reasonable scientific analysis must conclude the basic theory wrong!!” -- NASA Scientist Dr. Leonard Weinstein who worked 35 years at the NASA Langley Research Center and finished his career there as a Senior Research Scientist. Weinstein is presently a Senior Research Fellow at the National Institute of Aerospace.
http://blogs.forbes.com/jamestaylor/2011/07/27/new-nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-in-global-warming-alarmism/
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTom Tripp is a metallurgist. He is no way represents the consensus of the IPCC.
ReplyDeleteNeal - Refer back to my comment about you seeming to think a single lone objection renders a majority opinion moot.
ReplyDeleteThis is a fallacy.
Science deals in data gathering and inductive reasoning. When is there 'sufficient' evidence to reach a conclusion? That's a matter of personal opinion. One person might accept half as much as another. For one person, there might never be enough.
Scientists are by nature a diverse bunch - and moreover, a very sceptical bunch too. So when there is a clear majority opinion, pointing out the few hold-outs doesn't really count for much.
Tom Tripp, for example, is one of 450 IPCC lead authors. According to the IPCC's 2007 Fourth Assessment Report "human actions are "very likely" the cause of global warming, meaning a 90% or greater probability." Tom Tripp is conspicuous because his opinion (apparently) runs counter to that of the IPCC. He is the exception, not the rule. The question we should be asking is not why 1 person disagrees, but why 449 IPCC lead authors DO agree.
To dismiss the views of the majority because you prefer the view of the minority is fallacious, blinkered and vain.
Ritchie, "Oh dear, narcissism sounds a very undesirable trait, doesn't it?
ReplyDelete---
YES INDEED!
--
"Just think how insufferable people afflicted with it might be."
---
YES
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"They might, for example, proclaim loudly that they were the Chosen People of all the peoples of the world, "
---
Let him who is thirsty, come! Open invitation to all! No restrictions due to age, income, education, or nationality or whatever. Membership is of everyone's own choosing. Jesus said, whosoever, will, let him come!
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"that the supreme creator and arbiter of the entire universe actively cared for such lowly specs as them. So much, in fact, that he granted their requests and petty prayers - they could effectively weild the powers of an omnipotent being with a few words of supplication. "
---
Yes, indeed. What a wonderful privilege.
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"They might imagine the unfathomable vastness of the universe was created just so that they themselves might be brought about. They might imagine themselves to be the very pinnicle of creation."
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Yes. God's love for mankind is incredible.
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"They might imagine they and they alone held the keys to knowledge, wisdom and morality. "
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No way!
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"They might imgine they were destined to spend the rest of eternity enjoying absolute bliss with their fellows while everyone else was cast down to the eternal agony and torture which they so very richly deserve."
---
No one earns God's salvation. It is a gift from God. We are all in need of a Savior. This is not a elitist program. It is with great sadness that anyone should die apart from eternal life.
Neal -
ReplyDelete"Let him who is thirsty, come! Open invitation to all! No restrictions due to age, income, education, or nationality or whatever. Membership is of everyone's own choosing. Jesus said, whosoever, will, let him come!"
Fair enough anyone might have an open invitation to join this Special Group, but isn't that all the more reason to proclaim how wonderful it is to be Christian? How much BETTER you are than non-Christians? Don't worry, it's not boastful or proud, it's just to encourage others to join! Why it's practically a public service! A moral obligation, even!
"Yes, indeed. What a wonderful privilege...
Yes. God's love for mankind is incredible."
The fact that you apparently took my satirical comments seriously troubles me deeply. Read back over my comments that you are here agreeing to and try to work out why they are, in fact, supremely arrogant and narcissistic. They fact that you just accepted them reflects these qualities back on you too, I fear...
"No way!"
Thank God we can agree on something.
"No one earns God's salvation. It is a gift from God. We are all in need of a Savior. This is not a elitist program. It is with great sadness that anyone should die apart from eternal life."
Great sadness? Who is sad?
Surely not God. If He truly desired everyone to be saved, then why not just grant everyone salvation? It would certainly be within the power of an omnipotent being. Why reserve salvation for the extremely fortunte few who were able to blindly guess the correct religion from the multitude of religions on offer? Such an arrangement is inevitably massively inefficient and ineffective at best, and at worst outright cruel.
Ritchie said, "Great sadness? Who is sad? "
ReplyDeleteI certainly am. It is not a matter of thinking I'm better. The closer one is to the presence of God, the greater the recognition of the need for a Savior. Salvation is a gift, but it is the nature of God to not force his gift.
Neal -
ReplyDelete"I certainly am."
And yet you continue to worship the being that apparently brought this situation about. You must be very conflicted when you feel sad about the things the god you worship does...? How do you resolve this, I wonder?
"Salvation is a gift, but it is the nature of God to not force his gift."
No, salvation is a reward - the prize God dangles for choosing to worship him. The fate of those who do not is agony and torture.
This is coersion, pure and simple. Threatening. Do what I want and you get good things. Refuse me and you'll pay horribly!
We might compare God to a mugger with a gun held to your back demanding your wallet, or a mafia don offering you and your little shop 'protection'. He is offering you a choice - but one option leads to good things and the other leads to terrible suffering.
Hell is a horrific punishment OF GOD'S OWN MAKING!! HE made Hell! HE decreed who goes there and why. It is not a fate God is desperately trying to save us from, like a parent anxiously trying to keep a child safe from the inevitable dangers of the world. He is like a parent who PUTS LETHAL HAZZARDS INTO HIS CHILD'S PATH. Hell is His doing. He is omnipotent. He can do what He likes. No-one goes to Hell unless He Himself wishes it.
Why did it have to be so? If God really desired to seperate his faithful worshippers from everyone else after death, why did he have to make the Other Place so horrible? Why couldn't Heaven and Hell be equally pleasant, except that God was absent from Hell? Why do those who belong to a different faith, or have no religious faith, or who never even heard about Christianity, or who for reasons of their own simply choose not to worship Him, have to endure agonising tortures forever?
If this God really does exist, then He is nothing more than a malicious bully, a tyrant who demands worship and chooses to torture those who refuse Him. This arrangement has nothing to do with love.
Here's a relevant article on scientific theories and climate control at Boing Boing...
ReplyDeleteLowercase Theories, Uppercase Theories and the Myth of Climate Control
Hell is a horrific punishment OF GOD'S OWN MAKING!!
ReplyDeleteRitchie, for a non-believer, you tend to believe some people too much. There are Christians who took the same reasoning, studied the matter some more, discovered that there's no mention of Hell in the Bible and became Christian Universalists - like me. So yea, as far as I'm concerned nobody is going to Hell.
Exactly like you said, if God wanted everyone to be saved, everyone would be saved. Well, guess what - God wants everyone to be saved :P
With that out of the way - Cornelius, great article :) If I cared for science a bit, I would be upset about its situation.
Hunter:
ReplyDeleteHow could a scientist, who is skeptical of the notion that all of biology spontaneously arose on its own, prove that a biological structure “could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications.”
That’s funny. Google “irreducible complexity,” or Michael Behe, or “specified complexity,” or William Dembski.
Dr Hunter should visit Uncommon Descent and correct those bozos.
Marcel -
ReplyDelete"There are Christians who took the same reasoning, studied the matter some more, discovered that there's no mention of Hell in the Bible and became Christian Universalists - like me. So yea, as far as I'm concerned nobody is going to Hell."
My knowledge of Christian Universalism is, I'll admet, limited. But if they preach an afterlife with no Hell, then you have to at the very least admit you are going against the grain of most Christian denominations. The idea that everyone will be united with God after death is absolutely not a central tennet of Christianity.
You say there is no mention of Hell in the Bible, but that's not quite true. There are passages about God separating the just from the wicked, and casting the wicked into a furnace of fire, and tormenting them with fire and brimstone without rest either night or day. It's true these are not as plentiful nor as explicit as some might naively assume, and I'm sure you've concucted reasons to explain them away.
Nevertheless, what Biblical passages explicitly support the idea that EVERYONE gets into Heaven? The Bible IS explicit that salvation is something you have to strive towards, a goal, which some achieve and others do not.
"Exactly like you said, if God wanted everyone to be saved, everyone would be saved. Well, guess what - God wants everyone to be saved :P"
Oh great, so there's no point in being a Christian then? We're all saved whatever we believe, whoever we worship (or not) and whatever rules we obey? I can go out and have all the depraved, debauched, indulgent fun I like, knowing that I'm headed for the same place as you when I die - paradise? Great news! So why waste our short lives on our knees? Why bother with God at all? After all, He'll just forgive us in the end anyway.
you have to at the very least admit you are going against the grain of most Christian denominations.
ReplyDeleteDude, I'm going against most people when I disagree with evolutionism. I'm a contrarian.
The idea that everyone will be united with God after death is absolutely not a central tennet of Christianity.
So I just dreamed John 3:16 or 2Peter 3:9?
There are passages about God separating the just from the wicked, and casting the wicked into a furnace of fire, and tormenting them with fire and brimstone without rest either night or day.
Actually, their shame will be everlasting, if I understand the text correctly. This describes the sacking of Jerusalem - a horrible day, but it's in the past, you don't need to worry about it.
The Bible IS explicit that salvation is something you have to strive towards, a goal, which some achieve and others do not.
You've already been corrected on this. Salvation is a gift, not something you achieve. We have no merit in it. Believing in the right thing would be something we did to merit salvation, so that's out :)
After all, He'll just forgive us in the end anyway.
Some of us don't cheat on our wives even if we know they'd forgive us - maybe we don't want to upset them. Christians (should) want to please God. If fear of hell is the only thing making people behave like human beings then yes, universalism would be a problem. Love of God should do the trick better though, in my opinion.
Marcel -
ReplyDelete"Dude, I'm going against most people when I disagree with evolutionism."
That's true. So hopefully you have excellent reason to think you are right and the majority of others are wrong...?
"So I just dreamed John 3:16 or 2Peter 3:9?"
These passages do not support the idea that everyone will come to God in the end. The John passages explicitly states salvation is conditional on believing in Jesus (the very opposite to salvation being unconditional), and the 2Peter one just says God WANTS everyone to come to Him.
"Actually, their shame will be everlasting, if I understand the text correctly. This describes the sacking of Jerusalem - a horrible day, but it's in the past, you don't need to worry about it."
Ummm, no I don't think so. Read Matthew 13:40-50. Seems pretty clearly to be taking about the end of times:
"...the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full , they drew to shore, and sat down , and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth , and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Seems pretty explictly to say the wheat shall be seperated from the chaff. No mention of the Temple of Jerusalem.
"You've already been corrected on this. Salvation is a gift, not something you achieve. We have no merit in it. Believing in the right thing would be something we did to merit salvation, so that's out :)"
You're arguing against some pretty explicit Biblical passages here:
Acts 16:30-31 - "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved"
Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 5:29 - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
"Some of us don't cheat on our wives even if we know they'd forgive us - maybe we don't want to upset them... If fear of hell is the only thing making people behave like human beings then yes, universalism would be a problem."
Whilst I do agree that true morality is not one merely coerced through threat or promise of reward, what you haven't done is point out why we should worship God at all. If we're all going to be saved, worship seems a pretty arbitrary thing to do. Why spread the word? Why preach? Why let any non-Christian religious people know they are worshipping false gods? They'll find out for themselves soon enough when they die. In short, why be a Christian?
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"You say there is no mention of Hell in the Bible, but that's not quite true."
===
Well we actually can agree on something, well sort of. The old English word Hell isn't the best choice for trying to convey the original intent of the Hebrew word 'sheol'. Though the noun 'hell came from the verb helling which was used with regards to growing root crops and storing them in a cold root cellar. Hell probably was used to describe root cellar.
The problem is more of the concept of 'Hellfire and Damnation' for which most religious people ascribe to 'hell', but the Hebrew sheol is no such place. The Hebrew word's original meaning is simply the common grave of humankind or gravedom for lack of better word. It has nothing to do with any individual grave or cemetary. It's simply a place of concealment for a dead human body which desintegrates back into the dust elements from which we are all made in the first place. It does not mean continuing on into another life. Death is always opposite of life.
The King James Version translates the word 'sheol' 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave and 6 as pit, if I'm correct. Some Catholic translations add a fourth word/term , death. But several modern day English translations simply let the Hebrew word 'sheol' remain as it is.The puzzling question is why 3 or 4 different english words for just one Hebrew word ??? The reason is that though the concept of the official doctrine of Hellfire is prefered, there is a problem with that concept being applied places where grave is clearly meant, such as the grave of faithful men in the Bible. Fortunately for religious leaders, most parishioners won't bother to do a thorough personal self investigation or examination for themselves, so it's never been questioned. Well at least prior to these educated modern times.
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Ritchie:
"There are passages about God separating the just from the wicked, and casting the wicked into a furnace of fire, and tormenting them with fire and brimstone without rest either night or day."
====
Perhaps you believe it is scriptural texts like this that prove 'Hellfire and Damnation' is actuallt taught in the Bible ???
Revelation 20:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
The John passages explicitly states salvation is conditional on believing in Jesus (the very opposite to salvation being unconditional), and the 2Peter one just says God WANTS everyone to come to Him.
ReplyDeleteYes, my mistake. John 3:16 is about salvation from the sacking of Jerusalem. Faith in Jesus was required for that (for purely practical reasons - they were supposed to get out of Jerusalem when they saw certain signs). As for God wanting everyone to come to him... haven't we just agreed that what God wants, God gets? :)
the end of times
Don't believe everything you read :P It talks about the end of the age (aion), not the end of times. There is no mention of the temple in *that* paragraph, but there's more to the Bible than just that. Plus, "some of those standing here will still be alive when these things happen" (approx. quote) should settle things quite clearly, IMO.
You're arguing against some pretty explicit Biblical passages here:
Yes; those are about being saved from the destruction of Jerusalem. One had to believe Jesus for that, which was quite difficult at the time. There is no condition put on coming to God, as can be quite easily seen from the general motif of the NT.
why we should worship God at all
Because we love him and want to please him. Also, because we want better rewards, to speak your language :) I don't expect the next life to be all meadows and flowers; I expect it to be more challenging than this one, though without the suffering. As such, it would be better to use this time as a learning experience, instead of having to go back to school afterwards.
Ultimately, though, God loves you even if you don't love him. It's just that you're handicapping yourself by refusing to take the universe as it is.
Eocene -
ReplyDeleteI'm not totally clear on what you're saying here. Those who are not saved simply cease to be? They are merely cast into a communal grave while those who worship Jesus go on to eternal paradise?
Be that as it may (and I won't labour the point) you haven't really solved the dilemna of God's coercion. Even if Hell is mere non-existance rather than torture, God is still offering a reward for belief and worship, and punishment for refusal. No matter the specifics of the reward or punishment, that is still coercion. Threatening. Bullying. Hardly appropriate behaviour for any being worthy of the adjectives 'loving', 'good' or 'just'.
Unless you take what I believe is Marcel's position and (despite the Biblical references to the contrary) claim EVERYONE will get the reward. In which case, why be a Christian?
Marcel -
ReplyDeleteYou keep refering to the sacking of Jerusalem. But it seems to me you are quite wrong. Read the passages I've pointed out in context. Take a moment to read them through, with the preceeding and following verses too. None of them mention the sacking of Jerusalem.
"As for God wanting everyone to come to him... haven't we just agreed that what God wants, God gets? :)"
No. He's omnipotent; that is not the same thing. Unless of course you want to hold the position that we humans don't really have free will and we don't actually have any choice about whether or not to worship or reject God at all...?
"Plus, "some of those standing here will still be alive when these things happen" (approx. quote) should settle things quite clearly, IMO."
Jesus is talking about his second coming and the end of the world (of which the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem will be a sign). And yet he was quite wrong. He, and the apocalypse, is nearly 2000 years late. C.S.Lewis called this "the most embarrassing verse in the Bible" and an "exhibition of error", explaining it away by saying that because Jesus was part human, he shared humanity's fallibility and could be wrong on occasion.
http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/books/articles/cslewis.htm
"Because we love him and want to please him."
Why should we BELIEVE in Him? We have no evidence for Him - no objective, rational reason to think He exists. Like every religion, Christianity involves a leap of faith (otherwise it wouldn't be religion). Loving Him and wanting to please Him presupposes we believe in Him - a belief which is not arrived at if we are being thoroughly rational. If God truly desires our love and worship, why does He conceal Himself? Why doesn't He make His presence as obvious and undeniable as the sun in the sky? Something TANGIBLE, which believers can point at and say 'Look, there He is. Want abolsute proof of God? Here it is.' Why make loving and worshipping Him involve a leap of faith? It seems entirely self-defeating, if the love and worship of the whole of mankind is something God truly does desire.
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"I'm not totally clear on what you're saying here. Those who are not saved simply cease to be? They are merely cast into a communal grave while those who worship Jesus go on to eternal paradise?"
===
Nope, not what I was saying at all. Merely pointed out the logic and reality of what happens at death as described in the bible.
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Ritchie:
" . . dilemna of God's coercion. Even if Hell is mere non-existance rather than torture, God is still offering a reward for belief and worship, and punishment for refusal. No matter the specifics of the reward or punishment, that is still coercion. Threatening. Bullying. Hardly appropriate behaviour for any being worthy of the adjectives 'loving', 'good' or 'just'.
===
Do all the governments and nations of the Earth today use coersion, threats of punishment, bullying, etc if people disobey the Laws of the Land because of not paying taxes, stealing, murdering, cheating, etc. Are they unjust and unloving because they have such laws against what most people consider wrong ???
Here's an example of some council Paul gave with regards the paying of taxes, which some Jewish Christians may have still held against Roman occupation. I'll use the amplied bible, since it deals with modern english. Also, other translations actually use the word fear.
Romans 13:3-7
Amplified Bible (AMP)
3 "For civil authorities are not a terror to [people of] good conduct, but to [those of] bad behavior. Would you have no dread of him who is in authority? Then do what is right and you will receive his approval and commendation.
4 "For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, [you should dread him and] be afraid, for he does not bear and wear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant to execute His wrath (punishment, vengeance) on the wrongdoer.
5 "Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath and escape punishment, but also as a matter of principle and for the sake of conscience.
6 "For this same reason you pay taxes, for [the civil authorities] are official servants under God, devoting themselves to attending to this very service.
7 "Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due."
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Ritchie:
"Unless you take what I believe is Marcel's position and (despite the Biblical references to the contrary) claim EVERYONE will get the reward."
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No I don't take Marcel's position. I have met many modern day Christians who've taken this stance, but it's as you say total nonsense. One told me that God must have just changed Hitler when he went to heaven. Seriously, that's what she told me.
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Ritchie:
"In which case, why be a Christian?"
===
Exactly, we're at least on the same page. But look back at Revelation 20:15 and read the previos verse 14 from King James Version.
King James Version (KJV)
14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Clearly Hell(or the grave is NOT a place eternal or place of torture and suffering. Clearly "Lake of Fire" is meant only in a symbolic sense.
CH: Today, the question is not is there a structure that “could not possibly” have evolved, but rather which one of the thousands and thousands of examples in biology should we pick? In recent years proteins have provided yet another army of examples where even the evolutionist’s own numbers show a twenty seven order of magnitude shortfall between expectations and reality.
ReplyDeleteCornelius,
If the creation of knowledge necessary for creating proteins didn't come from the process of evolution, then where did this knowledge come from?
As is the case with many theories, Darwin's theory was better understood by others that came after him. Specifically, Darwin's theory let to a chain of better questions, which has let to a theory explaining the means by which knowledge is created.
In the case of biology, this refers to the creation of knowledge a biological replicator uses to cause a range of specific environments to reproduce it. Furthermore, the theory that knowledge is created by this means in the case of biological replicators can be falsified by observations in my previous comment.
But this theory is universal in that it also reflects the process of science.
We create theories via conjecture, criticize them and then discard those with errors - which is analogous to random mutations and the process of natural selection.
In other words, the theory of evolution is a universal theory of how knowledge is created. Not a theory of what we will experience, but how things *are*.
Discoveries of HGT do not falsify evolutionary theory because they do not falsify the underlying explanation for the creation of knowledge.
So, to repeat my question, if the knowledge of how to create proteins, as part of the process of replication, didn't come from biological evolution, then where did it come from?
Perhaps an ancient, technologically advanced alien race? But this too represents the creation of knowledge via evolution, which does it falsify the theory either.
Perhaps a better question would be, what theory of knowledge creation are you appealing to?
Eocene -
ReplyDelete"Nope, not what I was saying at all. Merely pointed out the logic and reality of what happens at death as described in the bible."
But what happens BEYOND death?
"Do all the governments and nations of the Earth today use coersion, threats of punishment, bullying, etc if people disobey the Laws of the Land because of not paying taxes, stealing, murdering, cheating, etc. Are they unjust and unloving because they have such laws against what most people consider wrong ???"
No-one considers themselves to have a personal, loving relationship with their government. In our western world the govt lays down laws to protect the rights and freedoms of the citizens, but yes they CAN be coercive and bullying - just look at laws made during tyrannical regimes.
In short, the law lets you do as you please as long as you do not infringe upon others. The law is a huge contract on how precisely you may or may not interact upon others. But if it required you to sing a hymn to your President each morning, or kneel in supplication to a statue of him, whether you wanted to or not, then yes this would indeed be coersive.
"One told me that God must have just changed Hitler when he went to heaven."
Yes the question of free-will in Heaven is another little paradox. But that's a whole new can of worms.
"Clearly Hell(or the grave is NOT a place eternal or place of torture and suffering. Clearly "Lake of Fire" is meant only in a symbolic sense."
For what?
What do you think happens after death? What happens to the saved and what happens to the others? In a nutshell.
CH :
ReplyDeleteEvolution’s falsified predictions—and there are many, most of evolution’s predictions have turned out false—do not matter. For none of this changes the evolutionist’s certainty that the alternatives are wrong. In other words, evidence against evolution does not remedy the problems with the design hypothesis.
This is a little confusing, it sounds like incorrect predictions of TOE should be a
proof that the unnamed alternatives could be correct. Would the reciprocal hold true? You mention intelligent design, what false predictions of TOE does it explain better? Are both constrained by the assumption of naturalism in this comparison ? Sorry for all the questions
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"But what happens BEYOND death?"
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Okay, pay attention now. Having never been there[no pun at all intended] I cannot tell you. However, the biblical description here in this text I find will agree with probably what most atheists will agree with. Read carefully and take notice I'm deliberately using the King James Version:
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 & 10
King James Version (KJV)
5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
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Here is another interesting scripture. Sounds almost identical to what an atheist might believe, see if you agree. Notice I'm now using a modern translation called "The Bible in Common English"
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
Common English Bible (CEB)
19 "because human beings and animals share the same fate. One dies just like the other—both have the same life-breath. Humans are no better off than animals because everything is pointless."
20 "All go to the same place , all are from the dust , all return to the dust."
Frankly, there is nothing to fear from death even for an Atheist or even a pagan.
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Ritchie:
"No-one considers themselves to have a personal, loving relationship with their government. In our western world the govt lays down laws to protect the rights and freedoms of the citizens, but yes they CAN be coercive and bullying - just look at laws made during tyrannical regimes.
In short, the law lets you do as you please as long as you do not infringe upon others. The law is a huge contract on how precisely you may or may not interact upon others. But if it required you to sing a hymn to your President each morning, or kneel in supplication to a statue of him, whether you wanted to or not, then yes this would indeed be coersive."
====
Perfect! , That is all God's Laws are, as long as you don't infrnge upon the rights of others. There is alot of freedom for anyone to pursue to their heart's desire as long as the basic standards and principles are respected and that of their fellow man.
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Ritchie:
"What do you think happens after death? What happens to the saved and what happens to the others? In a nutshell."
===
In a nutshell ??? Saved as you call them receive everlasting life, those not everlesting non-existance. But that is what your average atheist believes anyway.
HOWEVER! You've already referenced a scripture which speaks of a resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous. The term righteous only means those whose know and recognize the creator and agree with his standards and principles and apply these in their lives to the best of their ability.
The unrighteous are those who through history never knew God or his laws, standards and principles and are given opportunity to live again and learn about God's laws, standards, principles and original purpose for the Earth. Their continued life at that point depends on their adherence and respect for these. Otherwise their resurrection would be eventually said to be one of judgement where they will simply go back to non-existance. These labled unrithgeous[which means ignorant of what God's Laws are] would be people from times past who never knew the God of the Bible. They would be anyone from ancient Incas to atheists, to aboriginals, etc, etc, etc. Many may include those of an apostate Christian organization who need to be corrected on correct understanding of variuos doctrines(example Hellfire).
What I think the underlying issue Ritchie referring to here is that God, Jesus and human beings do not appear to play well defined, functional roles in the supposed gift of salvation.
ReplyDeleteFor example, It's unclear how acceptance through belief, or lack there of, that Jesus supposedly died for everyone's sin - past present and future - which would also include my sins, plays a functional role in accepting the supposed gift of a blissful afterlife in heaven, or God's ability to give it.
if i've sinned, then the actions in question were mine. Yet Jesus accepted the punishment for my sins before I was even born. If God's hands are somehow tied in that I must be punished for my actions, it's unclear how my belief in some past event "frees" a omnipotent and perfectly moral being to retroactively transfer my punishment to someone else who supposedly already died of my sins, leaving me forgiven.
Note how this explanation has the same problems of myths I mentioned in the previous thread.
Jesus, God and myself are only related to a supposed outcome of eternal of heavenly bliss thorough the theological narrative itself. While I'm sure many here believe salvation can only be obtained though a belief that Jesus died for our sins, the lack of a functional role makes for an easy to vary explanation. There is no hard to vary chain of explanations.
For example, despite the fact that we supposedly born unworthy of God's presence, many think unborn children who die are not subject to punishment, but go straight to heaven. At which point the question becomes, what is the purpose of taking physical form? Is there something that unborn children are missing in heaven, which can only be achieved by an earthly life? If heaven is eternal perfect bliss, how can one be missing anything?
Again, it seems that the cast of characters are only related to the outcome via the narrative itself. Nor is there any clear functional role which allows God to give the gift of salvation to children who die before they are born, but not adults.
Furthermore there are other religions that make clearly contradictory claims about what's required to obtain salvation, which billions accept as truth. And Christian universalists like Marcel who think everyone will go to heaven. These represent concrete examples of easy variability.
In other words, the many different narratives of salvation appear to have all of the features of a bad explanation, should one actually attempt to approach it objectively.
In addition, it appears that the salvation narrative Eocene, Neal and Marcel accept hinges on the supposedly the "correct" interoperation of "knowledge" in the Bible.
For example, Eocene wrote: "Clearly Hell(or the grave is NOT a place eternal or place of torture and suffering. Clearly "Lake of Fire" is meant only in a symbolic sense."
But this ultimately represents foundationalism. Specifically, they are appealing to a particular supposed authority, rather than appealing to the quality of explanation presented by any particular salvation narrative.
For example, it's clear the Quran says non-believers will be tortured forever in hell. So, why doesn't Eocene believe that Hell exists based on the correct interoperation of the Quran? Because he rejects the Quran as an authority, but accepts the Bible.
Scott:
ReplyDelete"Note how this explanation has the same problems of myths I mentioned in the previous thread."
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And yet you are one of the greatest myth creators anyone has ever read if they've actually bothered and taken 15-30 minutes to read your passion for lengthy manuscripting. Viels of MAYA and netherworlds of ILLUSIONS come to mind.
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Scott:
"For example, Eocene wrote: "Clearly Hell(or the grave is NOT a place eternal or place of torture and suffering. Clearly "Lake of Fire" is meant only in a symbolic sense."
But this ultimately represents foundationalism. Specifically, they are appealing to a particular supposed authority, rather than appealing to the quality of explanation presented by any particular salvation narrative."
===
You appeal to numerous authorities all the time, but criticize and demonize anyone else who may do the same to explain the foundation for there belief. Yes of course. That would seem logical to most people.
My position is almost identical to what the majority of atheists may believe happens at death and I simply showed why I believe that. The huge problem you have is not that I can agree with you[which I'm sure has a measure if irritation, hence the deflection games], but belief in a Creator is totally unacceptable because you have issues with perceived[in your own mind] accountability and definitions of morality that may infringe on personal persuits in life and that's fine, but lets at least be honest about it instead of rambling off pointless mystic stories or fables of netherworld's with definition shell gamings of ideas and beliefs.
This is why a true rational, logical and a real in this world on planet Earth discussion is impossible with you. You are under no obligation to believe anything anyone else says. That's what freewill is all about. At least take comfort in the fact that in the end there is nothingness, no suffering nor torment. Just blind pointless pitiless indiffernce with no more purpose or intent.
Eocene -
ReplyDeleteSo the 'saved' are resurrected and everyone else merely ceases to exist?
Yet again we're back with exactly the same problem. God is still coercing our choice to worship him. "You'll be rewarded if you do, and punished if you do not" still holds.
"Perfect! , That is all God's Laws are, as long as you don't infrnge upon the rights of others. There is alot of freedom for anyone to pursue to their heart's desire as long as the basic standards and principles are respected and that of their fellow man."
This is not all God's laws are. We are told to believe in and worship God. That is all that matters when it comes to whether you are rewarded or punished.
Ri9tchie:
ReplyDelete"Yet again we're back with exactly the same problem. God is still coercing our choice to worship him. "You'll be rewarded if you do, and punished if you do not" still holds."
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So basically you can agree and understand the concept of any nation or governemnt developing a constitution for it's citizens which without them would be utter chaos and anarchy, but if indeed there is a creator[just bare with me here on this] who creates and gives life, he should stay out of intelligent creations affairs and allow the corrupt irresponsible world we presently live in ???
Okay!!!
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Ritchie:
"This is not all God's laws are. We are told to believe in and worship God. That is all that matters when it comes to whether you are rewarded or punished."
===
I think the problem is you are looking at things with materialist glasses. You need to dump whatever ideas and mental images you have on Earth's present religious ecclesiastical systems which for the most part have preyed on humankind and took advantage of others and look strictly at what the bible actually says. Beyond that it's more that you are doing nothing more than reassuring yourself and not so much as convincing me of anything.
Take this seriously Ritchie. There's nothing to lose but an extended life as opposed to having it end prematuely. If the later takes place, there ultimately nothing to fear since no one will be aware of it anyway.
Sheeesh, even the Demons and Satan aren't atheist.
Eocene -
ReplyDelete"So basically you can agree and understand the concept of any nation or governemnt developing a constitution for it's citizens which without them would be utter chaos and anarchy, but if indeed there is a creator[just bare with me here on this] who creates and gives life, he should stay out of intelligent creations affairs and allow the corrupt irresponsible world we presently live in ???"
You are not following my argument.
I have said nothing about God laying down laws for humans to live by.
But your eternal salvation depends only on your acceptance of Jesus - an offer which is as open to genuine refusal as the mugger with the gun in your back asking for your wallet.
"Take this seriously Ritchie. There's nothing to lose but an extended life as opposed to having it end prematuely. If the later takes place, there ultimately nothing to fear since no one will be aware of it anyway."
You assume I have not studied the Bible? I assure you I have. And I have found it to be deeply, deeply flawed. Self-contradictory, full of errors, twisted morality tales and rather primitive reasoning. The idea that people treat it as the inerrant word of God is as comical as it is absurd.
Eocene: You appeal to numerous authorities all the time, but criticize and demonize anyone else who may do the same to explain the foundation for there belief. Yes of course. That would seem logical to most people.
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm referencing explanations, which were conjectured and criticized. Were these explanations formed and criticized by people? Yes. But this doesn't mean that I'm appealing to induction or foundationalism. Nor is it clear how I'm demonizing anyone.
Eocene: My position is almost identical to what the majority of atheists may believe happens at death and I simply showed why I believe that.
And I've simply pointed out that you're reached that conclusion based on foundationalism. This holy book is authoritative, rather than some other holy book. But how do you know which holy book is authorative?
Eocene: The huge problem you have is not that I can agree with you[which I'm sure has a measure if irritation, hence the deflection games], ...
But your not agreeing with me. You're referring to what I'll supposedly experience in the future, rather than the way things *are*. You're also fundamentally disagreeing with me in how knowledge is created.
If you said that knowledge can be created by pre-selecting two possibilities (hell does or does not exist), assigning them to heads (hell exists) or tails (hell doesn't exist), then flipping a coin, you might get tails and conclude that hell doesn't exist.
We would agree, but for completely different reasons. Right?
Eocene: … but belief in a Creator is totally unacceptable because you have issues with perceived[in your own mind] accountability and definitions of morality that may infringe on personal persuits in life and that's fine…
Wrong again. First, one could formulate a narrative that a "creator did it" which could be acceptable to anyone's perceived assumptions about accountably, morality, personal pursuits, etc. You've merely created a false dichotomy. This is yet another example of how "a creator did it" is easily varied, and therefore a bad explanation.
Second, I'll direct my earlier question to you as well. Where did the information the creator used to design everything come from? What explanation are you appealing to?
Eocene: … but lets at least be honest about it instead of rambling off pointless mystic stories or fables of netherworld's with definition shell gamings of ideas and beliefs.
Again, it's unclear how we can have a reasonable discussion regarding what is or is not science without defining science, how knowledge is created, etc.
Of course, it's not even clear that you're actually interested in having a reasonable, rather than arguing about which interoperation of which holly text is correct.
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"But your eternal salvation depends only on your acceptance of Jesus - an offer which is as open to genuine refusal as the mugger with the gun in your back asking for your wallet."
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Is that not what you would expect of any country who'd allow for immigration of any foreigners on condition they would agree to the acceptance of it's laws and regulations ??? This is not rocket science. The alternative is that humans be allowed continued running of their various governments as they see fit and then continue to procede to bastardize Earth's natural world and it's resources into the ground and allow a type/version of "Soylent Green" to be it's future outcome. Seriously, are you watching the News lately ???
There is No alternative. If you're not happy with that then that's your choice. You still have freewill and if the alternative strikes you as miserable, then so be it.
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Ritchie:
"You assume I have not studied the Bible? I assure you I have. And I have found it to be deeply, deeply flawed. Self-contradictory, full of errors, twisted morality tales and rather primitive reasoning."
====
Then you must be completely familiar with the legal and moral issue of universal sovereignty for which the actions of a self promoting intellectual got the failure ball rolling from the start ???
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Ritchie:
"The idea that people treat it as the inerrant word of God is as comical as it is absurd."
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Seriously have you looked at the world news ??? Have you observed the continual degredation of our planets ecosystems, the collaspe of the finacial systems, the idiocy of politics on ALL ideological fronts ??? The world you support is hardly a poster child success story.
Eocene -
ReplyDelete"Is that not what you would expect of any country who'd allow for immigration of any foreigners on condition they would agree to the acceptance of it's laws and regulations ?"
Do I expect a country to be able bully and domineer immigrants? No I do not.
"Then you must be completely familiar with the legal and moral issue of universal sovereignty for which the actions of a self promoting intellectual got the failure ball rolling from the start"
Everything that has ever gone wrong in the world EVER can be traced back to being the fault of universal sovereignty???
Ummm, how to put this...
"Seriously have you looked at the world news ??? Have you observed the continual degredation of our planets ecosystems, the collaspe of the finacial systems, the idiocy of politics on ALL ideological fronts ??? The world you support is hardly a poster child success story."
We've been here before. I do not think the world is perfect, but I do not agree that it is a smouldering powderkeg of disaster that you seem think it is. Whatever disasters befall us today have been befalling us for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and the standard of living for the average person has done nothing but rise.
Is the world a perfect place? Of course not. But WE need to do something about it! We humans. Because there is no God that will do it for us. We need to do it to safeguard a future for our grandchildren - that they might have a pleasant life on Earth, because that is the ONLY life we can be certain they will have. We need to cherish our lives and this world we share. And it is message which comes from atheism!
Ritchie:
ReplyDelete"Do I expect a country to be able bully and domineer immigrants? No I do not."
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Ecclesiastes 8:9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 "All this I have seen and applied my [a]mind to every deed that has been done under the sun wherein a man has exercised authority over another man to his hurt."
So you don't have problem with human ideologies bullying and domineering, you just resent the idea of a creator setting limits and establishing these permanetly for the benefit of those who do want a peaceful planet. The present mess is A-Okay I guess. Understood.
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Ritchie:
"Everything that has ever gone wrong in the world EVER can be traced back to being the fault of universal sovereignty???"
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On the contrary, the problem is all the 1000s+ failed sovereignty experiments that have been allowed to prove their case. It all started here.
Genesis 3:4-6 Common English Bible
“You won’t die! 5 God knows that on the day you eat from it, you will see clearly and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 The woman saw that the tree was beautiful with delicious food and that the tree would provide wisdom, . ."
The above info was of far more importance than these usual creation vrs evolution debates and was actual the purpose for it's being written.
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Ritchie:
"I do not agree that it is a smouldering powderkeg of disaster that you seem think it is."
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GMOs, Depletion of natural resources, ever continuing use of chemicals for profit without admitting responsiblity, numerous conflicts without reason, etc, etc, etc
" Whatever disasters befall us today have been befalling us for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and the standard of living for the average person has done nothing but rise."
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2 Peter 3:4
The Message (MSG)
3-4 "First off, you need to know that in the last days, mockers are going to have a heyday. Reducing everything to the level of their puny feelings,
they'll mock, "So what's happened to the promise of his Coming? Our ancestors are dead and buried, and everything's going on just as it has from the first day of creation. Nothing's changed."
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Ritchie:
"Is the world a perfect place? Of course not. But WE need to do something about it! We humans. Because there is no God that will do it for us. We need to do it to safeguard a future for our grandchildren - that they might have a pleasant life on Earth, because that is the ONLY life we can be certain they will have. We need to cherish our lives and this world we share. And it is message which comes from atheism!"
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The problem is this world[it's religions, governments, big Biz, irresponsible science and yes atheism) ALL have a lousy track record and NOTHING in all their history indicates they will change their tune any time soon.
Revelation 11:18
Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 "And the heathen (the nations) raged, but Your wrath (retribution, indignation) came, the time when the dead will be judged and Your servants the prophets and saints rewarded--and those who revere (fear) Your name, both low and high and small and great--and [the time] for destroying the corrupters of the earth."
velikovskys:
ReplyDeleteThis is a little confusing, it sounds like incorrect predictions of TOE should be a
proof that the unnamed alternatives could be correct. Would the reciprocal hold true? You mention intelligent design, what false predictions of TOE does it explain better? Are both constrained by the assumption of naturalism in this comparison ? Sorry for all the questions.
There is plenty of evidence that shows evolution is unlikely (impossible by any reasonable standard). But our photocells are still backwards, our limbs are based on the pentadactyl pattern, predation is rampant, the same genetic mutations show up in different, cousin, species, and tons of pollen are wasted every year. Evolution must be true, though all the direct evidence shows it can’t be true. It’s gnosis versus scientia.
Eocene -
ReplyDelete"So you don't have problem with human ideologies bullying and domineering..."
No, that's completely the opposite of what I'm saying. Are you even reading my posts?
"...you just resent the idea of a creator setting limits and establishing these permanetly for the benefit of those who do want a peaceful planet."
Yet again, in the blind hope that you might actually pay attention this time: its not that I have a problem with God proscribing laws of conduct. But the one and only choice to save your soul is whether or not to accept Jesus as saviour. And that is a coerced choice, not a free one. This is threatening, bullying, and it has nothing at all to do with love.
"GMOs, Depletion of natural resources, ever continuing use of chemicals for profit without admitting responsiblity, numerous conflicts without reason, etc, etc, etc"
And what is the solution? HUMAN INTERVENTION!!! We HUMANS need to get off our backsides and sort these problems, because if we spend all our time on our knees praying for our absentee landlord to fix these problems for us then absolutely nothing will get solved. Humans are capable of making quite a mess, yes, but we are equally capable of fixing them.
The fallacy is to give humans beings all the blame for the bad things, and God all the praise whenever anything goes right.
"The problem is this world[it's religions, governments, big Biz, irresponsible science and yes atheism) ALL have a lousy track record and NOTHING in all their history indicates they will change their tune any time soon."
A lousy track record at what, exactly? The only tangible advancements human beings have made in the last few hundred years are ALL thanks to science, naturalism and godless rationalism.
Christianity has been around fro two thousand years (its parent religion, Judaism, a thousand more) and in that time it's achieved basically chuff all. Christians were staring gormlessly at the world around them saying 'Wow, God made it all by magic. Isn't it amazing?" thousands of years ago, and they're doing exactly the same thing today.
"Read the passages I've pointed out in context."
ReplyDeleteOk.
Acts 16:30-31
Physical salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem. If they were talking about a salvation that is gifted once one believes, it wouldn't involve his household.
Mark 16:15-18
The end of 17 - speaking in languages - was a sign for the Jews, to force them to accept that non-Jews were now part of the same body. This is again about proclaiming to Jews, and ended at the destruction of Jerusalem.
John 5:29
They were all going to be resurrected, but some of them were going to be judged. John 5:25 even tells us this was going to happen in a short while.
"Unless of course you want to hold the position that we humans don't really have free will and we don't actually have any choice about whether or not to worship or reject God at all...?"
Not in the long run. "You are going to die" is not correctly countered by "I am still alive". The only choice humans have is how long it will take them to become Christians. God wants us all to become Christians; it's going to happen; all you can do is cause yourself a lot of pain in the process.
"Jesus is talking about his second coming and the end of the world (of which the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem will be a sign). And yet he was quite wrong. He, and the apocalypse, is nearly 2000 years late. C.S.Lewis called this "the most embarrassing verse in the Bible"..."
Yea. There is no "end of the world" in the Bible (the word used is "aion" in every instance, which means "age", or "covenant"). I will submit that C.S.Lewis was the wrong one, as much as I like the guy :P Just in case I didn't make this clear, everything you believe is about the end of the world is actually about the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new one. We're past all that. However, Christians - just like Jews 2000 years ago - are still looking for a physical fulfillment of prophecies, even though Jesus was very explicit that they (and we) should be looking for a spiritual one.
"Why should we BELIEVE in Him?"
Huh? The question doesn't make any sense. We start from that position. I don't start from an atheist position, that would be dumb.
(continued...)
(continued)
ReplyDelete"We have no evidence for Him - no objective, rational reason to think He exists."
I have no objective, rational reason to think that I exist, that the world exists, that you exist and so on. Reason is not the ultimate arbiter, will is.
"Like every religion, Christianity involves a leap of faith"
Yes, but every world view requires that. You need a leap of faith to believe in your senses too. You need it to believe in your reason. The foundation of all belief systems is faith.
I put my faith in Christianity, not in atheism. Atheism is a stupid religion.
"... a belief which is not arrived at if we are being thoroughly rational."
Huh? I don't arrive at anything, I *start* from this. You're looking at this the wrong way. :P By the way, let me know the reasoning you used to determine that there are no gods anywhere... I'm really curious. (An acquaintance of mine was fond of saying "atheism is stupid; I have three gods on my nightstand".)
"Why doesn't He make His presence as obvious and undeniable as the sun in the sky?"
I have no idea what you're talking about. His presence *is* as obvious as the Sun in the sky - more so. You just refuse to accept it.
"Something TANGIBLE, which believers can point at and say 'Look, there He is. Want abolsute proof of God? Here it is.'"
But we keep saying that, and you refuse to accept it. There is literally nothing that you would not reject, no matter how complicated the explanation. If I show you God, you will say "that is not God, it's a rock". You will ask the rock to perform miracles. If I point out that the human body is a miracle, you will invent evolutionism to counter it. If I point out that evolutionism is braindead, you will make up just-so stories to patch it up.
That direction is a dead end.
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ReplyDeleteNeal: "Yes. God's love for mankind is incredible.
ReplyDeleteYes, we should be all incredibly grateful that God, who made us (with critical reasoning faculties), then condemned our far distance ancestors for wanting to have knowledge and then laid the blame on every human being since, then completely wiped out all life on the planet except for a select hand-picked few, then come up with a rescue plan that is so mired in historical obscurity we can never possibly know if it's true but by all historical standards appears not to be, and has refused to reveal "Himself" in any real tangible way ever since (sorry, not exactly impressed by the "witness" of the church, especially the child-abusing variety), but for those who do not accept this plan (or sincerely cannot see any actual evidence that such a plan exists, or happen to have grown up in a different religion), are condemned to burn for all ETERNITY in an unmitigated hell of unimaginable pain and suffering.
Sorry, forgive me if I don't share your enthusiasm that this is "good news" or "incredible love", but rather pandering to a sick deity playing a sick cosmological game. I'd rather not play along thank you very much. But if you are so insecure that you need something outside of yourself to make you feel special and valued, more the pity for you.
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ReplyDeleteMarcel: I have no objective, rational reason to think that I exist, that the world exists, that you exist and so on. Reason is not the ultimate arbiter, will is.
ReplyDeleteJust because you may not be aware of any reasons, doesn't mean they do not exist. You just need to look for them.
Marcel: Yes, but every world view requires that. You need a leap of faith to believe in your senses too. You need it to believe in your reason. The foundation of all belief systems is faith.
Which is also false. Your knowledge of other forms of epistemology, or lack there of, doesn't mean they do not exist. In fact, what you're referring to is a forms of foundationalism, which is common in many religions. It's also clearly implied when you wrote…
Marcel: Huh? I don't arrive at anything, I *start* from this.
The rest of your comment is justified from your foundation.
For example, science doesn't assume to receive special messages from an all knowing being with perfect foreknowledge of the future. Nor does science assume to receive special communications from some all powerful being with the means to bring about his will, despite any obstacle.
Where do you put divine revelation on the traditional hierarchy of deduction, induction and philosophy?
Furthermore, I do not use "faith" to discern between realism and solipsism. Nor do I do not believe my senses are perfectly accrete representations of reality. Rather, I tentatively accept that realism is the best explanation for what I observe.
For example, do you have a better explanation as to why objects appear to follow laws of physics, rather than merely appealing to a possibly that we cannot rule out that the do with 100% certainty?
There are objective ways to differentiate between these two scenarios, whether you're aware of them or not.
Marcel: I have no idea what you're talking about. His presence *is* as obvious as the Sun in the sky - more so. You just refuse to accept it.
This appears to be more foundationlism at work.
If you're not with God you're against him. In this age, there is a cosmic battle raging between Good and Evil, in which everyone take sides - whether they admit it or even realize it. Even rocks know that God exists, etc.
Furthermore, if God's existence is so obvious then why are there so many different interpretations of him in this thread alone?
On one end of the spectrum, we have Calvinists that claim God would create sentient beings for the explicit purpose of tormenting them forever. On the other end, we have universalists, such as yourself, who claim that God will save everyone. How could the nature of the God of Calvinism be remotely similar to the God of universalism, given these extremes? How could this difference go noticed should anyone actually have a personal relationship with him and his existence is so obvous?
Of course, as a foundationlist, it's unlikely you actually have a good explication for this discrepancy. Rather, you'll simply assert it's true because it conforms to your particular interpretation of the particular holy text you believe represents the true word of God.
Kartrev said, "Yes, we should be all incredibly grateful that God, who made us (with critical reasoning faculties), then condemned our far distance ancestors for wanting to have knowledge"
ReplyDelete---
No. God was/is not against us gaining knowledge. Just the opposite. He wants us to get knowledge and wisdom. He even devoted a whole book of the Bible to encourage us to get it (Proverbs). The problem with Adam was his rebellion and pride against a simple requirement of God.
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K "and then laid the blame on every human being since,"
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No. We are not guilty of the their rebellion. Each is guilty of their own. That can be easily taken care of through God's provision, but sometimes we make it way to hard.
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K "then completely wiped out all life on the planet except for a select hand-picked few, then come up with a rescue plan that is so mired in historical obscurity we can never possibly know if it's true but by all historical standards appears not to be,"
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Noah? The earth was filled with murder and violence for a very long time. Ironically, when people ask, why would God allow evil in the world, they are upset when he does something about it! Judgment in the Bible needs to be carefully looked at in its context, the length of God's warning and patience.
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K "and has refused to reveal "Himself" in any real tangible way ever since (sorry, not exactly impressed by the "witness" of the church, especially the child-abusing variety),"
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He will and does reveal himself to everyone that is open and truly desires Him. The Holy Spirit is very real, as hundreds of millions of people from every nation can testify. If I should say different then I would be denying the reality of what I have personally experienced and seen many others experience.
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K " but for those who do not accept this plan"
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Should God force his plan then? Would those that hate God want to be with Him in eternity? What would your standard be of who should be in/out?
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K "(or sincerely cannot see any actual evidence that such a plan exists,"
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Those that seek God's plan seriously will find it.
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K "or happen to have grown up in a different religion),"
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I did, but wanted more than religion but a genuine experience with God. We are in the time of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will fill anyone who thrists for God. Everyone I know that has experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit says its awesome.
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K "are condemned to burn for all ETERNITY in an unmitigated hell of unimaginable pain and suffering. "
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If I'm wrong, then I have nothing to lose. If you're wrong, you've got a big problem.
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K "Sorry, forgive me if I don't share your enthusiasm that this is "good news" or "incredible love", but rather pandering to a sick deity playing a sick cosmological game. "
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Did you have a bad experience in a church or something like that? This is no game and experiencing the peace of God is a wonderful thing.
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"I'd rather not play along thank you very much. But if you are so insecure that you need something outside of yourself to make you feel special and valued, more the pity for you. "
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The great scientist Blaise Pascal said it best, “There is a God shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus”