Monday, January 24, 2011

The Enduring Warfare Thesis Theses

Though historians tell us that the warfare thesis—the idea that the relationship between science and religion has been mostly one of conflict—is discredited, there seems to be a great many who have not yet learned of its demise. Not only is the warfare thesis alive and well in popular culture, it is also promoted by those who probably should know better. In fact in the origins debate each side has its own version. Why is the warfare thesis so enduring? One reason is that, like any good lie, there is some truth to it. Probably a better reason is its rhetorical power. But perhaps the main reason is that we need it—our religion demands it.

The warfare thesis is usually identified with a nineteenth century evolutionary movement that cast evolution skepticism as religiously driven. Men such as Darwin confidant Thomas Huxley, chemistry professor John Draper and Cornell University cofounder Andrew White promoted the warfare thesis as a general trend in the relationship between religion and science.

A popular prooftext is the Galileo Affair. But the seventeenth century debate about geocentrism versus heliocentrism, involving Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church, was hardly obvious. Subtleties in both the science and religion make simple stereotypes difficult to come by. Rather than serving as supporting evidence, the Galileo Affair is one of many problems with the warfare thesis.

Of course there are people who oppose strong scientific findings on religious grounds. Geocentrism still has its proponents. But the relationship between science and religion has generally been far more complex than one of simple obstructionism and conflict.

What the warfare thesis did provide, nonetheless, was powerful evolutionary rhetoric. This is exemplified no better than in Jerome Lawrence’s and Robert Lee’s Inherit the Wind. I once debated an evolutionist professor directly following the staging of this fictionalized account of the 1925 Scopes Monkey trial. It was like arguing against a war after a propaganda film. I made some powerful scientific points but they were met with empty stares while the professor’s metaphysical mandates for evolution received approving nods all around.

It was yet another example of the complexity of the relationship between science and religion. I, though billed as the “science skeptic,” made scientific arguments whereas the professor, though billed as the “science defender,” made religious arguments.

Historians note that religion has provided ideas for science. Did not Darwin learn about scarce resources from the cleric Thomas Malthus? But evolutionary thought does not merely draw on a few religious ideas for inspiration. Evolution rests on a religious foundation and mandate that dates back long before Darwin and remains crucial today.

In evolutionary thought, the relationship between science and religion is better modeled according to the centuries old adage: Theology is queen of the sciences. This view, of course, badly damages evolution’s claim to be a scientific fact and hence the warfare thesis. How better to handle a liability than to assign it to the opposition? Evolutionists need the warfare thesis, their religion demands it.

The other warfare thesis

But evolutionists are not the only ones who have a warfare thesis. Evolution’s skeptics also have one. While evolutionists blame the skeptics for being religious, the skeptics blame evolutionists for not being religious. Consider the seventeenth century Anglican cleric Thomas Burnet who was accused of atheism by Richard Bentley. Burnet was widely read and had lasting influence. He presented a variety of evidences and arguments that god would only use natural laws and processes to create the world. One may agree or disagree with his ideas, but Burnet certainly was no atheist.

A century later the equally religious James Hutton endured the atheist accusation, and after Darwin it became common for skeptics to equate evolution with atheism or naturalism. Most recently Albert Mohler writes:

The debate over Darwinism rages on, with almost every week bringing a new salvo in the great controversy. The reason for this is simple and straightforward – naturalistic evolution is the great intellectual rival to Christianity in the Western world. It is the creation myth of the secular elites and their intellectual weapon of choice in public debate.

In some sense, this has been true ever since Darwin.  …

Darwin’s central defenders today oppose even the idea known as “Intelligent Design.” Their worldview is that of a sterile box filled only with naturalistic precepts.

From the beginning of this conflict, there have been those who have attempted some form of accommodation with Darwinism. In its most common form, this amounts to some version of “theistic evolution” – the idea that the evolutionary process is guided by God in order to accomplish His divine purposes.

But evolutionary thought does not stem from naturalistic precepts. True, evolutionists insist on strict secondary causation in their explanation of origins, but the motivation and justification for this dogma is religious. And just as the evolutionary warfare thesis holds scientific concerns to be inconsequential compared to the supposed religious motivations, so too this warfare thesis holds religious arguments to be inconsequential compared to the supposed atheism or materialism. Such religious arguments are, according to this warfare thesis, nothing but mere accommodationism.

As before, there is much truth to this thesis. Certainly evolution has fueled atheism and materialism. And the growing atheism, in turn, promotes evolution. But evolution also fuels theism. Process theology, for instance, has strong influences from evolution. This is hardly surprising given the religious thought that mandated evolution in the first place. Any atheism to be found is parasitic on the underlying theism. Far from an attempt at accommodation, the theism is the driving force.

Consider, for example, the case of eighteenth century religious skeptic, David Hume. The influential Scottish philosopher promoted evolutionary thought and Darwin was well versed in Hume’s arguments which occasionally even show up in Origins, albeit with the usual Darwinian touch of subtlety.

If ever there was an opportunity to trace the path of atheism’s or naturalism’s influence it would be here. But what we find is exactly the opposite. Hume’s (and Darwin’s) arguments were mostly theological and occasionally philosophical, but never from atheism. Indeed, while Hume was a great rhetoritician and creative in his own right, many of his arguments can be seen in earlier theists.

It is not a large step to move from Malebranche’s and Leibniz’s naturalistic solutions to the problem of evil to Hume’s argument against a divine design of a world so filled with misery. And like any good student of debate, Hume could with equal skill marshal the opposing arguments. Arnauld’s rejection of such theodicies by appeal to the mysteries of the divine can be seen in Hume’s anthropomorphic warning. We must not think we can anywise conceive the perfections of god, so the design inference must be rejected. And Hume’s arguments against miracles came after decades of debate amongst theists.

Hume is by no means an isolated example. Today, for instance, Richard Dawkins argues god would never have designed the blind spot in our retina, and PZ Myers believes god would not have created this universe. And more important than the atheists are the theists who initiated and promoted the many metaphysical arguments that mandate evolution. For centuries they have insisted god would work strictly through secondary causes and be undetectable. This is the foundation of evolutionary thought. It is anything but atheistic.

But while this warfare thesis may not be accurate, it is powerful rhetoric. How better to construct an enemy than to blame it on the secularists or atheists? As with the evolutionist’s warfare thesis, this one is an enduring theme.

And by blaming evolution on the atheists one can avoid the difficult metaphysical and theological issues evolutionists raise. What about Burnet’s and Kant’s greater god argument, and what about Leibniz’s problem of evil? And what about those fossils and design similarities? There is no need to address these evolutionary questions if it can all be dismissed as a secularist agenda. But it isn’t.

In the origins debate each side has its own warfare thesis, and these opposing theses serve many purposes. Unfortunately these theses are misconceptions at best, and self-serving religiously driven fictions at worst.

195 comments:

  1. Semi OT:

    Study: Rising Religious Tide in China Overwhelms Atheist Doctrine
    Excerpt: One of the last great efforts at state-sponsored atheism is a failure.
    And not just any kind of failure. China has enforced its anti-religion policy through decades of repression, coercion and persecution, but the lack of success is spectacular, according to a major new study.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-briggs/study-rising-religious-ti_b_811665.html

    The unmitigated horror visited upon man, by state sponsored atheism, would be hard to exaggerate,,,

    Chairman MAO: Genocide Master
    “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books.
    I’m now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….”
    http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/

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  2. Hunter:

    Historians note that religion has provided ideas for science. Did not Darwin learn about scarce resources from the cleric Thomas Malthus?

    How does the fact that Malthus was a cleric make his economic and demographic ideas religious? From what theological sources did Malthus derive those ideas?

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  3. Cornelius Hunter: Rather than serving as supporting evidence, the Galileo Affair is one of many problems with the warfare thesis.

    Galileo, old and nearly blind, was threatened by the Inquisiton, and "pronounced by the Holy Office to be vehemently suspected of heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center and moves". It would be difficult to find a more obvious example of the conflict between science and religion.

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  4. "was threatened by the Inquisiton,"

    Threatened in a roman "Villa" at the expenses of the Pontifician States while he was studyng a publishing his books.

    "vehemently suspected of heresy," and condemned to pray once a day, pray finaly made by his daughter a nun.

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  5. The Catholic church listened to geocentric based scientists and bought into it long before Galileo. This was not a Bible issue. Galileo believed in the Bible. The Catholic church had put tradition above scripture. During this time it opposed the distribution of Bibles more powerfully than even a devote atheist. The Catholic opposition to Galileo was mild compared to its opposition of those who preached from the Bible and not from the Catholic traditions.

    Many came out of the Catholic church because it was just flat in error about lots of things... mostly the Bible. This gave birth to the Protestant Reformation.

    As CH said, this wasn't a simple religion vs science issue. Geocentric scientists also opposed Galileo and they reinforced the Catholic tradition that they created.

    It's more like bad science influencing religion and then bad science and religion joining together to oppose good science.

    It would be a huge blunder for Christians to be influenced by the bad science of evolution and then join forces and oppose good science. Devote evolutionists today are very much like the traditionalists of Galileo's time. Evolutionists are being dragged to the edge by the information revolution and they are attempting to straightjacket and suffocate dissent from their traditions.

    In this regard, many of the evolutionits on this blog share more with the 16 century Catholic church than I do.

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  6. You are incredibly sick Cornelius. But that's your job I guess.

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  7. Blas: Threatened in a roman "Villa" at the expenses of the Pontifician States while he was studyng a publishing his books.

    Galileo, old and nearly blind, was at least threatened with torture, as per the depositions. It was not a trivial matter, but a capital crime. The penalty for heresy was death by burning.

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  8. Neal,

    This gave birth to the Protestant Reformation.

    And of course Martin Luther had no geocentric views, and was a strong supporter of Copernicus. Right?

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  9. Under threat of conviction for heresy, Galileo signed the following recantation:

    "I, Galileo, son of the late Vincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, arraigned personally before this tribunal, and kneeling before you, Most Eminent and Reverend Lord Cardinals, Inquisitors-General against heretical depravity throughout the entire Christian commonwealth, having before my eyes and touching with my hands, the Holy Gospels, swear that I have always believed, do believe, and by God's help will in the future believe, all that is held, preached, and taught by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. But whereas -- after an injunction had been judicially intimated to me by this Holy Office, to the effect that I must altogether abandon the false opinion that the sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center of the world, and moves, and that I must not hold, defend, or teach in any way whatsoever, verbally or in writing, the said false doctrine, and after it had been notified to me that the said doctrine was contrary to Holy Scripture -- I wrote and printed a book in which I discuss this new doctrine already condemned, and adduce arguments of great cogency in its favor, without presenting any solution of these, and for this reason I have been pronounced by the Holy Office to be vehemently suspected of heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center and moves:

    Therefore, desiring to remove from the minds of your Eminences, and of all faithful Christians, this vehement suspicion, justly conceived against me, with sincere heart and unfeigned faith I abjure, curse, and detest the aforesaid errors and heresies, and generally every other error, heresy, and sect whatsoever contrary to the said Holy Church, and I swear that in the future I will never again say or assert, verbally or in writing, anything that might furnish occasion for a similar suspicion regarding me; but that should I know any heretic, or person suspected of heresy, I will denounce him to this Holy Office, or to the Inquisitor or Ordinary of the place where I may be. Further, I swear and promise to fulfill and observe in their integrity all penances that have been, or that shall be, imposed upon me by this Holy Office. And, in the event of my contravening, (which God forbid) any of these my promises and oaths, I submit myself to all the pains and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. So help me God, and these His Holy Gospels, which I touch with my hands.

    I, the said Galileo Galilei, have abjured, sworn, promised, and bound myself as above; and in witness of the truth thereof I have with my own hand subscribed the present document of my abjuration, and recited it word for word at Rome, in the Convent of Minerva, this twenty-second day of June, 1633.

    I, Galileo Galilei, have abjured as above with my own hand."

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  10. Neal,

    Evolutionists are being dragged to the edge by the information revolution and they are attempting to straightjacket and suffocate dissent from their traditions.

    You are bound to win Neal. But this is because the misinformation about evolution is much easier to produce and digest as if it were true than it is to get a proper education and understand real science. You would have to work and think carefully in order to understand evolution and see that it is, actually, science. It is much easier to lie about evolution, than to verify facts, read scientific articles, and properly understand them. Entropy is on your side. Real scientific understanding requires work. Misinformation is almost effortless. Thus, misinformation will prevail. That is the way of the Universe.

    I feel sorry that it will not be truth that prevails, but it has to be good news to you that your misinformation will. Just as astrology and other pseudosciences are here to stay. Very same reasons.

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  11. I see nothing about atheism in your citation of Mohler. While your main point may be true for some theists, (they blame any friction between science and religion on atheists) it is not true for most that I've read, and certainly is not true in Mohler's quote.

    Mohler's point is that naturalistic presuppositions are always forced on the results of scientific study, creating a "sterile box" of naturalism. And that even theists find ways to accommodate this worldview. He says, nothing of atheism.

    This removes much of the force behind your second point. While I won't concede that the point is as vast among theists as you make it seem, it has some merit.

    Theist positions are harmed by these "warfare theses" because the culture rewards the seeming "objectivity" of science, over the admitted proselytization of religion. But the objectivity is an illusion because the results of science are forced to support the naturalist's "religious presuppositions" (Mohler's sterile box).

    The battle isn't between science and religion. The battle is for science, between two religious positions. The second being naturalism/materialism not atheism.

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  12. I understand that Copernicus was a Catholic Clergyman. And some historians feel that the Vatican was motivated primarily by politics in its persecution of Galileo. Other Historians feel that the Pope was insulted by what was an obvious caricature of him in Galileo's book.

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  13. rpvicars:

    ===
    I see nothing about atheism in your citation of Mohler.
    ===

    Mohler characterizes evolutionists as having a worldview the is filled only with naturalistic precepts. He characterizes religion as not playing a significant role, but rather merely as an attempt to accomodate evolution.


    ===
    Mohler's point is that naturalistic presuppositions are always forced on the results of scientific study, creating a "sterile box" of naturalism. And that even theists find ways to accommodate this worldview.
    ===

    Right, that is an erroneous characterization of evolution. Until and unless opposing sides of a debate actually reckon with what the other side is claiming, then how can there be common ground and progress? In this case, this mischaracterization of evolution is quite damaging.


    ===
    This removes much of the force behind your second point. While I won't concede that the point is as vast among theists as you make it seem, it has some merit.
    ===

    What evolution skeptics do you think accurately characterize evolutionary thought?

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  14. Cornelius,

    "What evolution skeptics do you think accurately characterize evolutionary thought?"

    You of course.
    .

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  15. rpvicars:

    "I see nothing about atheism in your citation of Mohler."

    Thank you, I've fixed the OP.

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  16. "Galileo, old and nearly blind, was at least threatened with torture, as per the depositions. It was not a trivial matter, but a capital crime. The penalty for heresy was death by burning. "

    I do not find any source about his blindness, maybe your image of this poor old man come from the fact that he was seek when brougth to Rome for thr trial, but he lived very well for others 10 years after that travel. He stayed in different "ville" of Rome and then in Siena and Florence with servants,receiving the visits of his cardinals friends working at his last two books. The major threat was to receive a fist from his former personal friend Pope Urban VIII because make him foul in the book subject to the trial. He bargained his major accusation admiting his minor, and he was found guilty by 7 of the judges, three of the others voted for the dismiss

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  17. Cornelius Hunter

    It is really not clear to me what you are saying about atheist biologists like Coyne or PZ Myers what they are really believing or what their metaphysical presumptions are, when they say God would not have designed such and such. Do you think they actually believe in God? Isn't this just a if-then reasoning for purpose of argument (if God existed then he would do so and so, because it makes more sense)? Shouldn't for an atheist the prime reason to believe in the ToE or to reject Creationism / ID be that it does not require God?

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  18. second opinion:

    ===
    It is really not clear to me what you are saying about atheist biologists like Coyne or PZ Myers what they are really believing or what their metaphysical presumptions are, when they say God would not have designed such and such. Do you think they actually believe in God? Isn't this just a if-then reasoning for purpose of argument (if God existed then he would do so and so, because it makes more sense)?
    ===

    Good question. For atheists such as Dawkins, Coyne, Myers, etc., I take their statements of atheism at face value. I assume they are atheists because that is what they say. But that is inconsequential. When Dawkins argues that god or a designer, capable of creating the universe, would not have created our retina with a blind spot, or Myers argues that god would not have created this universe, or Coyne makes one of the many evolutionary claims about what a god or a designer would and would not do they are making non scientific, metaphysical, claims.

    These claims go back centuries and in modern times were issued mainly by Christians. But in any case, they are metaphysical claims. Does this make sense to you?

    In other words, if I say god would not create a blind spot, that is a religious claim, entirely exclusive of what I believe about god's existence. If Dawkins is an atheist, that doesn't mean that his belief that god or a designer would not create a blind spot is somehow not metaphysical.

    Dawkins, Coyne, Myers and the rest can (and do) claim they are not making religious or metaphysical claims all they want. That is simply not true. In fact it is *obviously* not true. In one moment they say god wouldn't make this universe, and in the next they say they are free of metaphysics. The claim is prima facie ludicrous.

    Similarly, one does not have a free pass on the excuse that one is "testing" the alternative. Of course evolutionists are testing the alternative. That is what evolutionary thought is about. If I say evolution is a fact because creation is false because god would never have made this universe, that doesn't mean I've somehow escaped metaphysics. Quite the opposite, I am indebted to my metaphysics. The conclusion hinges on the claim that god would never have made this universe, and that is a metaphysical claim which is leading me to turn science upside down and make a scientifically absurd conclusion.

    You might wonder why evolutionists make such obviously fallacious and foolish statements, such as that they are free of metaphysics. It is because they do not consider their premises to be metaphysical. To the rationalist, like the axioms of geometry, their premises are so self-evident that they are in no need of defense. There can be no doubt.

    As Whitehead observed, our most crucial assumptions "appear so obvious that people do not know what they are assuming because no other way of putting things has ever occurred to them.” Evolution is a fascinating example of how people think and reason.

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  19. Cornelius,

    You are just twisting words around. Nobody thinks that evolution is true because a god or a designer would not do this or that. Evolution is a fact because what we observe shows it to be a fact. No need for wondering nor for denying what a designer or a god would or would not do. Whether those guys make a metaphysical claim or not does not change the evidences, and the evidences say evolution happens and has happened, and we are relatives of many other living species, if not of all, in the planet.

    You also need to clarify what you mean by metaphysical, because the nature of being and of the world is too wide a concept. Under such a concept, you don't even have a case. Everybody has assumptions about the nature of being and of the world. Science has fundamental metaphysics/philosophy, of course. But that does not mean that those fundamentals are religions. But I bet you use this word (metaphysics) to hide the concept you really want to use lest we have an easier target to debunk. So, what do you truly mean Cornelius?

    Misguided religion drives your pseudoscience and rants, and it matters.

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  20. Cornelius Hunter

    Thank you for your answer, and it is an interesting OP by the way. I don't dispute that "God would not have designed that" is a metaphysical statement, but an atheist who by definition does not believe in God can not rationally claim to know what God would do or not do. Thus I can only conclude that Coyne and the others do not really believe their own metaphysics.

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  21. Negative Entropy:

    ===
    You are just twisting words around. Nobody thinks that evolution is true because a god or a designer would not do this or that. Evolution is a fact because what we observe shows it to be a fact. No need for wondering nor for denying what a designer or a god would or would not do.
    ===

    Can you explain how "what we observe shows it [evolution] to be a fact?" For example:


    ===
    Whether those guys make a metaphysical claim or not does not change the evidences, and the evidences say evolution happens and has happened, and we are relatives of many other living species, if not of all, in the planet.
    ===

    can you explain how the evidence proves we are relatives, via common descent, of many other living species?

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  22. Wow Pedant, how did you manage to post that brick? Is Blogger finally behaving? I'll give it a try.

    All following quotations from Cornelius.

    ====
    Though historians tell us that the warfare thesis—the idea that the relationship between science and religion has been mostly one of conflict—is discredited
    ====

    Um, perhaps you just didn't mean to actually explain that, but I couldn't find anywhere in this post why the "warfare thesis" is discredited.

    ====
    This is hardly surprising given the religious thought that mandated evolution in the first place. Any atheism to be found is parasitic on the underlying theism.
    ====

    OK. You think evolution is a religious position, but why a theistic one? Where's the god?

    ====
    Today, for instance, Richard Dawkins argues god would never have designed the blind spot in our retina, and PZ Myers believes god would not have created this universe.
    ====

    Most of the time, they are wrong. For most of religions, there is simply no way to know if "god" would have done "this" rather than "that", because everything about "him" is wishy-washy. And that is the reason why it's futile to argue for the existence of gods from the world is.

    Now Dawkins and Myers position may hold for some particular cases in which the god is very specifically characterised. This will not happen in the ID world.

    ====
    Dawkins, Coyne, Myers and the rest can (and do) claim they are not making religious or metaphysical claims all they want. That is simply not true. In fact it is *obviously* not true. In one moment they say god wouldn't make this universe, and in the next they say they are free of metaphysics. The claim is prima facie ludicrous.
    ====

    The scenario of Dawkins, Coyne and Myers only is tenable when a particular theology provides enough detail to enable empirical testing. Let me make an analogy: suppose a particular theology clearly states that god would put no star on the sky that is not apt for the inhabitation of mankind. Then a Dawkins would rightfully say that that god would have not made this universe. That has metaphysical consequences (the hypothesis is of metaphysical origin) but the reasoning is not metaphysical. It is logical judgement informed by scientific evidence. This can happen because many religions are in fact a complicated threading of metaphysical and non-metaphysical claims. It is the same for the eye design argument.

    ITOH, atheism (1), defined as the denial of the existence of gods actually is a metaphysical claim. I don't know if Dawkins and Myers would agree about that, but I think they should. Atheism (2), defined as the lack of belief in gods, is not metaphysical claim. It's a non-claim. The eye design argument can only inform one's decision to hold (atheism 1, theism) or not to hold (atheism 2) a particular metaphysical claim.

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  23. Blas,

    Galileo really was blind during the final years of his life. Check the Wikipedia article, with two refs. backing it.

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  24. Cornelius,

    I would be happy to share a few of these evidences, which you surely already know. But I have to insist that you first clearly define what you mean by metaphysical. I would also ask you not to miss the point that no matter how "metaphysical" these guys get in their claims, that does not makes evidence magically disappear.

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  25. Galileo suffered a number of eye ailments over his lifetime, including progressive cataracts. However, glaucoma is suspected for his total loss of sight late in life.

    Watson, The enigma of Galileo's eyesight: some novel observations on Galileo Galilei's vision and his progression to blindness, Surv Ophthalmology 2009.

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  26. CH wrote:

    Rather than serving as supporting evidence, the Galileo Affair is one of many problems with the warfare thesis.

    I'd suggest the incident between Galileo and the Inquisition does reflect evidence of the primary conflict between religion and science and we can still see this conflict occurring today. Specifically, this conflict is over the criteria for reality.

    This is not to say Galileo and the Church disagreed about the existence of reality. Both were realists in that each assumed an external reality was reflected in the observations of moving celestial bodies. However, Galileo differed in how he perceived the relationship between this physical reality and human ideas, observation and reason. Specifically, he believed that the universe could be understood in terms of universal, mathematically formulated laws, and that this understanding was accessible to human beings if applied systematically though testing.

    To quote Galileo, "the Book of Nature is written in mathematical symbols". This would be an important fact about reality itself and have important implications.

    For example, If his method was indeed reliable, then wherever applicable its conclusions had to be preferable to those obtained by any other method, including common sense, intuition, incredulity and even religious doctrine and revelation.

    I'm suggesting it was this property of reality, rather than heliocentric theory itself, which the church found dangerous.

    And it's this property of reality that is still the point of conflict today.

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  27. I'd also not some rather interesting parallels with Evolutionary theory, our current understanding of biology and Cornelius's position here on his blog.

    For example, the Inquisition took no explicit position on the controversy, just as Cornelius supposedly takes no explicit position on evolution. Nor did the Inquisition forbid viewing heliocentric theory as a mathematical possibility or even using it to make predictions about the motions of the planets. After all, God could have used a near infinite number of ways to bring about the night sky

    So, when the church denied the reliability of scientific knowledge in the case of heliocentric theory, it was focused on it's ability to provide explanations, rather than make successful predictions.

    Furthermore, at the time, there were no observations that overwhelmingly supported heliocentric theory over geocentric theory. One could one could always argue Galileo's was being arrogant or even dogmatic himself. Galileo's version of heliocentric theory assumed the planets moved in circles, rather than ellipses.

    Sound familiar?

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  28. "Furthermore, at the time, there were no observations that overwhelmingly supported heliocentric theory over geocentric theory. "
    --------------------------------

    Except perhaps the phases of Venus.

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  29. Cornelius Hunter said...

    Negative Entropy:

    ===
    You are just twisting words around. Nobody thinks that evolution is true because a god or a designer would not do this or that. Evolution is a fact because what we observe shows it to be a fact. No need for wondering nor for denying what a designer or a god would or would not do.
    ===

    Can you explain how "what we observe shows it [evolution] to be a fact?" For example:


    As we've only explained about a hundred times, it's because the evidence that evolution occurred over deep time is so overwhelming that its standing in the scientific community is that of fact. And you already know where to find the evidence CH, you're just being willfully dishonest again. Read any college level textbook on genetics for a summary.

    Negative Entropy:
    ===
    Whether those guys make a metaphysical claim or not does not change the evidences, and the evidences say evolution happens and has happened, and we are relatives of many other living species, if not of all, in the planet.
    ===

    can you explain how the evidence proves we are relatives, via common descent, of many other living species?


    He did't write proves CH, he wrote the evidence says, which it does. Why did you dishonestly switch his words?

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  30. Scott: One could one could always argue Galileo's was being arrogant or even dogmatic himself.

    That's right, because it's always best to burn stubborn old men. What was the charge again?

    "vehemently suspected of heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center and moves"

    Petrushka: Except perhaps the phases of Venus.

    A system consistent with observation can be devised with any point being the center, even Europa, for instance. (Just ask a Europan.) However, once Galileo saw the moons of Jupiter, the phases of Venus and mountains on the Moon, it was quite obvious what was going on. The Sun, by far the largest object in the Solar System, was the center.

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  31. Negative Entropy:

    ===
    I would be happy to share a few of these evidences, which you surely already know. But I have to insist that you first clearly define what you mean by metaphysical.
    ===

    I'm not using the term "metaphysical" in any special sense. In modern science the ground rules are to make some basic assumptions such as uniformity and parsimony. They are OK. Evolutionists also argue that only naturalistic explanations can be allowed in science. I have no problem with that, but I trust it is obvious that one cannot therefore conclude that only naturalistic explanations are real. That would also be a metaphysical claim.

    I trust it is also obvious that personal religious beliefs are "metaphysical." If you believe god likes two-headed unicorns, and because you haven't found any on earth, therefore you predict they will be found on some other planet, then I'd say that is metaphysical.

    $$$
    I would also ask you not to miss the point that no matter how "metaphysical" these guys get in their claims, that does not makes evidence magically disappear.
    $$$

    Agreed. I'm not the one here who is using the warfare thesis to ignore inconvenient evidence. My goal in investigating the evidence is to prove evolution, not disprove it.

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  32. Scott:

    ===
    So, when the church denied the reliability of scientific knowledge in the case of heliocentric theory
    ===

    The church denied no such thing, as the science was not settled. You are presenting whig history. I'm not defending the actions of the church here, but it is not simply a case of it denying the reliability of scientific knowledge.

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  33. Negative Entrophy,

    Evidence for common descent of all life is merely subjective in nature. You have no real evidence and this is why the majority of people in the world resist the grand claims that evolutionists make.

    I have looked for the evidence for over 30 years. Still waiting. Like a poorly perserved crime scene, evolutions interpret the data according to their world view. Even bad theories can offer up some support. Will you offer up more than rhetoric?

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  34. Thorton:

    ===
    He did't write proves CH, he wrote the evidence says, which it does. Why did you dishonestly switch his words?
    ===

    I'm not the one who is dishonestly switching words. He said evolution is a fact because what we observe shows it to be a fact. Evolutionists make astonishingly high claims. It is a fact, it is compelling, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it would be perverse to doubt it, it is as certain as gravity--no, more certain, it would be irrational to deny it is a fact, and so on, and so forth. There is seemingly no limit to their claims. But when a skeptic asks for the details suddenly the backpedaling begins.

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  35. Scott: Furthermore, at the time, there were no observations that overwhelmingly supported heliocentric theory over geocentric theory.

    Pertruska :Except perhaps the phases of Venus.

    Right.

    However, his observation only collaborates heliocentric theory in the context of particular explanation being correct, in reality (the planets move in ellipses). Again, when the church denied the reliability of scientific knowledge, it denied it's ability to provide explanations, rather than make successful predictions.

    So, due to the conflict, this observation was irrelevant in their eyes. But it's a good point, which I'll elaborate on later.

    Scott: One could one could always argue [Galileo] was being arrogant or even dogmatic himself.

    Zachriel:That's right, because it's always best to burn stubborn old men. What was the charge again?

    The Inquisition didn't explicitly take a position on their own, which gives appearance of neutrality. It's from this appearance that someone could try to argue dogmatism or arrogance.

    However, this appearance was merely superficial. The church did present an implicit theory of their own by simultaneously accepting heliocentric theory as a means to predict the nights sky and forcing Galileo to deny that heliocentric was true, in realty.

    We know the church accepted heliocentric theory as a means of prediction because Galileo's book Dialogue of the Two Chief World Systems, which compared the heliocentric theory with the official geocentric theory, had been cleared for printing by the Church censors. In fact, The Pope had even reluctantly approved of Galileo's writing on the subject before it was published.

    As a site note, a misleading document was produced at Galileo's trial, which claimed he had been explicitly forbidden to discuss the issue at all.

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  37. CH: The church denied no such thing, as the science was not settled.

    You failed to quote the rest of my sentence, which qualified what was denied.

    I wrote: So, when the church denied the reliability of scientific knowledge in the case of heliocentric theory, it was focused on it's ability to provide explanations, rather than make successful predictions.>

    CH: You are presenting whig history.

    Please see my previous comment. History shows an distinction was made.

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  38. I wrote: However, this appearance was merely superficial. The church did present an implicit theory of their own by simultaneously accepting heliocentric theory as a means to predict the nights sky and forcing Galileo to deny that heliocentric was true, in realty.

    To elaborate, the implicit theory Galileo was force to endorse was essentially as follows: the earth is in, in realty, at rest and the Sun and planets are moving around it a complex manner; however the paths in which they travel are defined in a complex way which, when viewed from the surface of the earth, is also consistent with the sun being at rest and the earth and planets being in motion.

    We can call this The Inquisition's implicit theory of planetary motion.

    However, if this theory were true, we'd still expect heliocentric theory to make accurate predictions of astronomical observations made from the perspective of the earth's surface, even though it would be false, in reality. As such, it would appear that any observations that support heliocentric theory would support the Inquisition's theory as well.

    Furthermore, as Pertruska noted, observations of the phases of Venus appeared to supported heliocentric theory. However, one could extend The Inquisition's implicit theory by positing even more complex motions, governed by different laws of physics observed here on earth. These laws could be different in precisely the right way to remain consistent with the earth appearing to be in motion.

    In hindsight, all of this complexity seems contrived to us now. However, the church could have argued it seemed absurd at the time, or that it contradicts common-sense and scripture. Why accept a theory were the planets *and* the earth move when we have a theory that works without it.

    But does The Inquisition's implicit theory really work without adding the complication of heliocentric theory?

    If you asked why someone why a particular planet backtracked across the sky in a particular path based on the The Inquisition's implicit theory, what would be their response? They would consistently reply, "because that's how it would look if heliocentric theory were true." Essentially, we have a cosmology (The Inquisition's implicit theory) that can be only understood in terms of a different cosmology (heliocentric theory) which it faithfully mimics.

    Notice that the Inquisition's implicit theory fails to actually solve the problem it claims to solve. It doesn't explain planetary motion without introducing the complication of heliocentric theory. As such, we can say the The Inquisition's implied theory is a convoluted elaboration of heliocentric theory. Had the Inquisition taken the very theory they forced Galileo to accept as a serious expiation of reality, they would have realized this, even then.

    Also note that we reached this conclusion not by appealing to modern cosmology, but by taking The Inquisition's implied theory seriously as an explanation of observed phenomena, on it's own terms, in reality. We've ruled it out not based on experimental testing, but based on the fact that it offers no explanation of it's own. It's a bad explanation.

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  39. The warfare thesis is highly distorted, often times circular reasoning is invoked as a result. For example, Roman Catholicism during the middle ages was against doctrines outside its own and put religious and Christian people to death who refused to convert or take the mass. Would evolutionist accuse Roman Catholicism of being anti-religion? Not all religions are right about things.

    Also, scientists disagree with other scientists, would evolutionists accuse them of being anti-science? Of course not! Not all scientists are right about things. In other words, if one disagrees with a "theory" or "hypothesis" it doesn't necessarily mean the person is anti-science. It's the same with religion, if a clergyman disagrees with a particular 'theory' it doesn't mean he's anti-science.

    The warfare thesis is really about promoting a 'theory' (evolution) to religious status which makes war against other viewpoints even non-religious ones but focuses a lot on making war with Christianity and other religious of the world because of certain government laws that would favor them!

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  40. Neal, apart from the fact that you are contradicting yourself because earlier you claimed even ipods were obeying common descent, common descent is not subjective but an outcome of rigorous mathematical analysis. And if we take everything we know about human intelligent design into account the chances of that design producing the appearance of common descent we see in nature are virtually zero.

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  41. second opinion:
    ...common descent is not subjective but an outcome of rigorous mathematical analysis.

    How do you analyze common descent mathemaically??

    ...and can you post a link to the analysis?
    It would be VERY interresting to see!!

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  42. Stephen C. Meyer Explains Why Either I.D. Is Science... or Darwinism Is Not
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyxwt_0NGbA

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  43. For the reading pleasure of dalahimself:

    A formal test of the theory of universal common ancestry

    Douglas L. Theobald
    Nature 465, 219–222 (13 May 2010) doi:10.1038/nature09014

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  44. Scott: Furthermore, as Pertruska noted, observations of the phases of Venus appeared to supported heliocentric theory.

    Not necessarily. The change in apparent size of Venus, along with its phases, shows that Venus revolves around the Sun, but the Earth could still be stationary with the Sun-Venus system revolving around the Earth. Any point in space can be taken as the center. When, you realize that, then you also realize that there is only one reasonable center of the Universe, Zachriel, er, rather, the Sun.

    Newtonian Mechanics puts the question to rest by providing a comprehensive theory concerning center of gravity.

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  45. The change in apparent size of Venus, along with its phases, shows that Venus revolves around the Sun, but the Earth could still be stationary with the Sun-Venus system revolving around the Earth.
    -----------------------

    I believe that was a common interpretation.
    http://www.hao.ucar.edu/education/img/tychonian.gif

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  47. Hi Neal,

    Evidence for common descent of all life is merely subjective in nature.

    No, it's not.

    You have no real evidence and this is why the majority of people in the world resist the grand claims that evolutionists make.

    No, most of those people reject evolution on the basis of misinformation. (A few honest ones have said that the theory is fine, but they reject it on the basis of their religion.)

    I have looked for the evidence for over 30 years.

    All creationists say this. Can you show me your understanding of what evolution is? We can take it from there.

    Still waiting. Like a poorly perserved crime scene, evolutions interpret the data according to their world view.

    I know I don't. I started reading Darwin's big book expecting to find chimps changing into humans in a zoo, you know, both the classic creationist cartoons, and the more elaborate cartoons. None of that was there to be found. Darwin's book is a masterpiece of intellectual pursuit. Darwin started almost each chapter with a reason why evolution would not be true, then showed the data, and the data would support the opposite. After realizing that I held cartoons of evolution in my head, I still read creationist, thinking at least some of their arguments would be real, but in the end I found that evolution was truly a beautiful and elegant scientific theory. Anyway, then while studying I have found more and more support for the theory. Sure we don't know how everything evolved, but evolution is undeniable. No subjective interpretation at all.

    Even bad theories can offer up some support. Will you offer up more than rhetoric?

    Sure. Let us start by hearing what you understand about it.

    Best and have a great week (couple of very busy days ahead, but I shall try to answer if you write back.)

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  48. Cornelius,

    I'm not the one who is dishonestly switching words. He said evolution is a fact because what we observe shows it to be a fact.

    I have not switched words at all Cornelius.

    Evolutionists make astonishingly high claims. It is a fact, it is compelling, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it would be perverse to doubt it, it is as certain as gravity--no, more certain, it would be irrational to deny it is a fact, and so on, and so forth.

    Not beyond the shadow of a doubt, but beyond reasonable doubt. There is a difference.

    There is seemingly no limit to their claims. But when a skeptic asks for the details suddenly the backpedaling begins.

    What backpedaling Cornelius? You ignored a question, so I asked again. As for the evidence, let us see how my conversation with Neal develops. Be patient.

    -----

    Agreed. I'm not the one here who is using the warfare thesis to ignore inconvenient evidence.

    What inconvenient evidence? Like your "failed" "predictions of evolution" that never were predictions of evolution?

    My goal in investigating the evidence is to prove evolution, not disprove it.

    Right. And I won the Nobel price in physics.

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  49. Investigation of any poorly preserved crime scene requires the formulation of hypotheses and the search for evidence the confirms or disconfirms the hypotheses.

    I've never heard of a serious criminal investigation that included the hypothesis that ghosts or spirits committed the crime. I suppose Father Brown might have done so. (Just kidding)

    The best explanation will be that which lacks disconfirming evidence and which is consistent with known physical laws and mechanisms. As Sherlock might add: "however improbable."

    The only cogent argument I've heard against evolution is that sequences coding for functional proteins are too sparse to support incremental change in small steps.

    If, by small steps, we exclude everything but point mutations, perhaps this is a reasonable stance, but we have no reason to exclude other modes of change.

    At any rate, recent research indicates that minimally functional coding sequences are not rare among random sequences. This seems not to have been anticipated by ID proponents.

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  50. Pedant:
    A formal test of the theory of universal common ancestry

    And how is the theory of "universal common ancestry" (UCA) tested in this paper?
    In the abstract we can read that:
    "I test UCA by applying model selection theory to molecular phylogenies, focusing on a set of ubiquitously conserved proteins that are proposed to be orthologous."

    Testing for UCA by proposing that the proteins are orthologous (ie. are homologous due to common descent) is pretty much the same as testing humans and apes for common descent by proposing that their similarities are due to a common ancestor.

    The question is how do you know that similarities are due to common descent?



    Also, from one of the papers which referenced regarding selection theory, Testing the Hypothesis of Common Ancestry (http://philosophy.wisc.edu/sober/elliot.pdf):

    "It is worth pausing to consider the possibility that there may be no way to find out whether the Hypothesis of Common Ancestry is true."

    And as they write in their conclusion:

    "The hypothesis of common ancestry is central to contemporary evolutionary theory. However, a valid methodology for testing that hypothesis that allows one to look at suites of characters has not, until now, been available."

    And yet, again, this testing needs certain premises which have to be taken as true.
    But making a premise by "proposing" what you want to prove doesn't tell you anything, really.

    How would you prove that certain traits can only be similar if they have a common descent?
    THAT'S the question.

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  51. The question is how do you know that similarities are due to common descent?
    _____________________________

    You never *know* in the sense of having God's vision, but you can exclude competing possibilities.

    If you include magical intervention as a possibility, you can accept any historical scenario.

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  52. Negative Entrophy, said, "Sure we don't know how everything evolved, but evolution is undeniable... Let us start by hearing what you understand about it."

    Darwin's "big book" was a masterpiece of rhetoric that was able to take advantage of what some people wanted to believe and rationalize it. He put the onus on the skeptics to show why complex things could not have evolved. How he got away with that superfical level of explanation is an interesting study in human psychology. He disparages black people and compares them to gorillas in his big book. It is a complete shame on humanity that his big book is regarded as some kind of scientific breakthrough.

    It is a fact that there are severe limits to complex adaptions that require multiple genetic changes before any benefit exists. Natural selection is not the mechanism that is capable of such change. The theory of evolution (i.e. universal common descent) breaks down when you go beyond superfical observations. It's a beautiful mirage to those who want to believe that way.

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  54. He put the onus on the skeptics to show why complex things could not have evolved.
    ______________________

    Having demonstrated with examples of animal and plant breeding, that large changes can come about incrementally, the onus belongs with those who assert it can't happen.

    Fossil evidence of the evolution of the mammalian middle ear confirms that complex systems can evolve incrementally.

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  57. Hey Neal,

    Could you please just tell me what you do understand about evolution first? If Darwin's big book wanted to take advantage of what some people wanted to believe I wonder how it convinced me despite I was reading it with the whole intention of laughing at it. Seems like you did not read it. Did you or are you repeating what you have heard from creationist quacks? Because if those are your resources to looking for the evidence for over 30 years, then I am not surprised that you have not found it.

    So, again, pretty please, what is your understanding of evolution? Did you at least get to understand Darwin's evidences? I mean the facts that inspired him about it? Where do we start?

    (About to travel now, but will check when possible.)

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  58. The question is how do you know that similarities are due to common descent?

    Petrushka:You never *know* in the sense of having God's vision, but you can exclude competing possibilities.

    How dou you exclude the possibility of similarities existing without common descent?
    Do you have a "scientific method" or do you base your conclusions on "intuition"?

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  59. Negative Entropy: Hey Neal, Could you please just tell me what you do understand about evolution first?

    Negative Entropy, it would be MUCH easier if you told Neal what evidence has convinced you that random mutations and natural selection can account for complex lifeforms, rather than Neal starting to explain what he knows about evolution.

    Point Neal to the evidence which has convinced you, and you can discuss it from there. Its alot easier like that, I would think...

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  60. How dou you exclude the possibility of similarities existing without common descent?
    -----------------------------------
    Describe a "possibility" that does not involve direct creation.

    If you allow magic, no possibility can be excluded.

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  61. One can always postulate that an invisible designer makes large changes in populations through direct intervention.

    But then one might ask why the designer doesn't behave like human genetic engineers, and do lateral transfers from widely unrelated species -- plants to animals, for example. Why do all the similarities and differences fit a nested hierarchy.

    If humans disappeared for a million years, it would be possible to find evidence for genetic engineering done by humans, because there would be artifacts in genomes not fitting the hierarchy expected from descent.

    So if there is a meddling designer, he doesn't behave like human designers.

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  62. I wrote: Furthermore, as Pertruska noted, observations of the phases of Venus appeared to supported heliocentric theory.

    Zachriel: Not necessarily.

    Right. I should have been more clear. It collaborated elliptical heliocentric theory, which we now know is correct, but observations can collaborate more than one theory.

    My point was that The Inquisition's implied theory could have implied some even more complex state of affairs to account for the phases of Venus, while still being wrong.

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  63. Negative Entrophy said, "So, again, pretty please, what is your understanding of evolution?"

    dalahimself said, "Point Neal to the evidence which has convinced you, and you can discuss it from there. Its alot easier like that, I would think... "

    I agree, it would be a much more direct approach. My understanding of evolution comes from what evolutionists have written in articles, books and websites, as well as correspondence. I can repeat back what you believe, but I don't agree. For every curious example of supposed evolution (mammalian middle ear) many strong contradictory examples can be found: avian lung, avian feathers, bacterial flagella, Trilobite eye, ad infinitum.

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  64. I'm curious how you interpret these as contradicting evolution. Lack of intermediates in fossils hundreds of millions of years old does not contradict evolution. (Missing evidence neither contradicts nor supports a theory. It's just missing evidence. Erasing fingerprints does not negate the history of a crime.)

    A single series like the mammalian middle ear, however, does contradict the claim that complex structures cannot arise incrementally.

    Just as the dozens of variant versions of flagella and cilia contradict the claim that the flagellum is irreducible. And contradict the claim that sub-components of the flagellum are not functional without the whole.

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  65. I wrote: Furthermore, as Pertruska noted, observations of the phases of Venus appeared to supported heliocentric theory.

    Zachriel: Newtonian Mechanics puts the question to rest by providing a comprehensive theory concerning center of gravity.


    Did it?

    For example, empirical observations alone could never rule out a theory that the earth is surrounded by a giant planetarium which presents a simulation of a heliocentric solar system. Outside this planetarium, there could be anything you like, or even nothing at all. One could even account for modern day observations with the theory that this planetarium further simulates the universe by redirecting radar and laser observations, capturing space probes and sending back simulated telemetry and returning astronauts with fake samples, altered memories, etc. This might sound absurd, but it can't be ruled out because the earth moving sounded absurd at the time. Do we feel the earth moving?

    It's thought that Galileo delayed publicly advocated his heliocentric theory by years, not out of fear or The Inquisition but out of fear of ridicule. It's also thought that Darwin delayed presenting his theory of natural selection and common decent for similar reasons.

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  66. not out of fear or The Inquisition but out of fear of ridicule. It's also thought that Darwin delayed presenting his theory of natural selection and common decent for similar reasons.
    -------------------------------------------

    I suppose being shown the instruments would not induce fear in a man like Galileo.
    ;>)

    Darwin's thought processes are reflected in his correspondence, which is so voluminous that not all of it has been made available, but not for lack of effort.

    He was not afraid of ridicule, but he was concerned that he might have overlooked something or failed to respond to some obvious problem. Everyone in the biology community knew what he was up to, and many people critiqued his ideas along the way.

    As a result, there are few big questions that he did not address.

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  67. Scott: For example, empirical observations alone could never rule out a theory that the earth is surrounded by a giant planetarium which presents a simulation of a heliocentric solar system.

    Of course, you can propose any manner of extraneous entities. It's angels pushing planets to look just like gravity.

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  68. I wrote: To quote Galileo, "the Book of Nature is written in mathematical symbols". This would be an important fact about reality itself and have important implications.

    As I mentioned earlier, both Galileo and The Inquisition were realists. However, The Inquisition's implied theory (see earlier comment) has something in common with solipsism. Both draw an arbitrary boundary where human reason supposedly has no access. In this case, problem solving could not be a path to understanding motions in the night sky.

    In the case of solipsists, this boundary surounds their brains (or possibly their immaterial soul.) But in the case of The Inquisition's implied theory, this boundary surrounded the entire earth.

    However, regardless of where one draws this boundary, we can regard them variants of solipsism. They all consider scientific rationality and problem solving to be inapplicable outside that boundary. It might be useful for making predictions, but it cannot actually explain anything.

    It's also shares similarities with solipsism since it objects to problem solving as a means to gain knowledge without deriving conclusions based on an ultimate source of justification. Inside the boundary, problem solving is accepted, but for regions deemed outside this boundary, they look elsewhere. In the case of religion, divine relation often plays that role. In the case of Solipsists, only the direct experience of their own thoughts are trusted. To quote Rene Descarte's classic argument, "I think, therefore I exist".

    So, again, I think the incident between Galileo and the Inquisition does reflect evidence of the primary conflict between religion and science: religion draws an arbitrary boundary in which scientific reasoning has no access.

    However, Galileo differed in how he perceived the relationship between this physical reality and human ideas, observation and reason. That we, as human beings, can actually know about reality is an important fact about reality itself.

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  69. Cornelius Hunter said...

    Thorton:

    ===
    He did't write proves CH, he wrote the evidence says, which it does. Why did you dishonestly switch his words?
    ===

    I'm not the one who is dishonestly switching words. He said evolution is a fact because what we observe shows it to be a fact. Evolutionists make astonishingly high claims. It is a fact, it is compelling, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it would be perverse to doubt it, it is as certain as gravity--no, more certain, it would be irrational to deny it is a fact, and so on, and so forth. There is seemingly no limit to their claims. But when a skeptic asks for the details suddenly the backpedaling begins.


    LOL! Not only did you dishonestly change his words, you got caught and busted. Just like you try and redefine the term 'fact' to mean "whatever I, Cornelius Hunter, personally accept".

    I wonder sometimes if you honestly believe anyone finds your childish rhetorical games clever or persuasive. Anyone besides your handful of scientifically illiterate IDC sycophants that is.

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  70. A quite interesting research on the Galileo Galilei Affair:

    http://www.galilean-library.org/site/index.php/page/index.html/_/essays/history/the-galileo-affair-part-1-introduction-r65

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  71. Petrushka,

    There were a number of reasons which effected the final publication date. However, I'd suggest that Darwin was motivated to be more thorough in his research because his conclusions could have been perceived by some as being absurd.

    Even now, Cornelius makes the this claim.

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  72. Darwin was motivated to be more thorough in his research because his conclusions could have been perceived by some as being absurd.
    ------------------------------
    That doesn't contradict what I said, but Darwin didn't have to guess about the reaction. He had a vast correspondence with everyone whose opinion mattered to him. He countered every objection brought to the subject.

    Some thought him wrong, but no one with knowledge of his work thought it absurd.

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  73. Petrushka said, "I'm curious how you interpret these as contradicting evolution. Lack of intermediates in fossils hundreds of millions of years old does not contradict evolution. (Missing evidence neither contradicts nor supports a theory. It's just missing evidence. Erasing fingerprints does not negate the history of a crime.)

    Missing OR never existed? You see, you make the assumption that it is just missing... have you considered that it hasn't been found because it never existed?

    The mammalian ear evolution claim by evolutionists is one of their proudest arguments. It is telling in itself that this argument is among the best that evolutionists can muster. Their claim is not a slam dunk win. The ear is a precision organ. What about the organ of Corti that is essential for mammal hearing but is not found in a single reptile? Was the origin of this organ a saltation event?

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  74. Dr Hunter explains metaphysics:

    I'm not using the term "metaphysical" in any special sense. In modern science the ground rules are to make some basic assumptions such as uniformity and parsimony. They are OK.

    That's good metaphysics.

    Evolutionists also argue that only naturalistic explanations can be allowed in science. I have no problem with that, but...

    That's barely acceptable metaphysics.

    ... I trust it is obvious that one cannot therefore conclude that only naturalistic explanations are real. That would also be a metaphysical claim.

    Bad metaphysics.

    I trust it is also obvious that personal religious beliefs are "metaphysical." If you believe god likes two-headed unicorns, and because you haven't found any on earth, therefore you predict they will be found on some other planet, then I'd say that is metaphysical.

    I'd say that's insanity.

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  75. Tedford:

    What about the organ of Corti that is essential for mammal hearing but is not found in a single reptile? Was the origin of this organ a saltation event?

    And what about nipples that are essential for mammalian reproduction, but can't be found (after exhaustive search) in reptiles? Another saltation event?

    And what about...?

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  76. Missing OR never existed? You see, you make the assumption that it is just missing...
    ____________________


    It's a pretty good assumption. Consider that when you look for intermediate amphibians in likely places, you find them. You need intermediates between birds and reptiles, you find them.

    The difference between intermediates found and those not found is in the conditions that allow preservation.

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  77. Tedford the idiot said...

    Petrushka said, "I'm curious how you interpret these as contradicting evolution. Lack of intermediates in fossils hundreds of millions of years old does not contradict evolution. (Missing evidence neither contradicts nor supports a theory. It's just missing evidence. Erasing fingerprints does not negate the history of a crime.)

    Missing OR never existed? You see, you make the assumption that it is just missing... have you considered that it hasn't been found because it never existed?


    Let me get your 'logic' straight Tedford:

    Lots of transitional fossil sequences are know to modern science, but because not every last one has been found that somehow means the ones that have been found don't exist.

    Is that about it?

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  78. "What about the organ of Corti that is essential for mammal hearing but is not found in a single reptile? Was the origin of this organ a saltation event?"

    It will always be possible to argue from ignorance but it would be much better if you had positive arguments for an alternative explanation instead.

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  79. Hunder,

    "Evolution rests on a religious foundation and mandate that dates back long before Darwin and remains crucial today."

    Which religious ground is that specifically?

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  80. Hunter,

    "When Dawkins argues that god or a designer, capable of creating the universe, would not have created our retina with a blind spot, or Myers argues that god would not have created this universe, or Coyne makes one of the many evolutionary claims about what a god or a designer would and would not do they are making non scientific, metaphysical, claims.

    These claims go back centuries and in modern times were issued mainly by Christians. But in any case, they are metaphysical claims. Does this make sense to you?"

    It does make sense to me. If somebody does make such claims then this is metaphysical.

    However, it is not metaphysical if somebody says something like:

    According to our scientific evidence it possible that the retina evolved via evolutionary mechanisms.

    Can you see the difference?

    I never had a scientific primary research paper about evolution in my hands that had the word "God" in it. Can you please give me the references for those papers. I would realy love to read them.

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  81. Negative Entropy,

    Cornelius Hunter seems to suffer under evolutionvobia and his job seems to be to spread it all over the world.

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  82. Petruskia: That doesn't contradict what I said,

    I wasn't trying to contradict what you said. I was trying to clarify what I said.

    but Darwin didn't have to guess about the reaction. He had a vast correspondence with everyone whose opinion mattered to him. He countered every objection brought to the subject.

    I'm not suggesting Darwin's theory was actually absurd then or now. Nor was my comment limited to contemporaries that Darwin had correspondence or to whose opinion mattered to him. I'm suggesting that Darwin was conscious of and concerned about public reception of his theory.

    For example, it was only 12 years after Origin of Species that Darwin directly referenced human beings. I don't think this necessarily represented uncertainty on the part of Darwin, but that he was waiting for what he felt was the right time to present it.

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  83. he was waiting for what he felt was the right time to present it.
    ---------------------

    I think he had lots of reason, including one put forth by Gould: He was doing his barnacle book. This was his *dues*, his PhD thesis, his demonstration that he was a serious scientist and not a crank with a crank theory.

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  84. Pedant wrote:

    Dr Hunter explains metaphysics: That's good metaphysics. […] That's barely acceptable metaphysics. […] Bad metaphysics. […] I'd say that's insanity.

    So, rather than drawing a boundary around his soul or the earth, Dr Hunter has drawn a boundary at biological complexity. And he presents it under the guise of metaphysics.

    For example, Cornelius has repeatedly chastised those who compare evolution with gravity. Of course, he has never come clean as to if he's referring to gravitational theory or the phenomena that the theory encompasses.

    However, I'd suggest this is because Cornelius thinks this phenomena, among others, fall inside the sphere where scientific rationality and problem solving is applicable. However, biological complexity falls outside this sphere. It might have have value in the context of viruses or cancer cells that become resistant to treatments, but it cant really explain biological complexity.

    So, despite being a realist, in a strict sense of the word, it appears that his skepticism of evolutionary theory represents a variant of solipsism.

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  85. emil:

    ===
    "Evolution rests on a religious foundation and mandate that dates back long before Darwin and remains crucial today."

    Which religious ground is that specifically?
    ===

    Great question. I summarize this in Chapter 2 of my book Science's Blind Spot, and I discuss it in my other books. I also discuss it in this blog and a bit at www.DarwinsPredictions.com.

    There is no single religious tradition or thinker behind evolutionary thought. It is rather a common tendency in religious thought, that can be found across a spectrum of traditions.

    Within the modern science era, a convenient starting point is with Nicolas Malebranche, a 17th c. Roman Catholic. But it would be misleading to think Roman Catholicism was significant in building evolution's metaphysical foundation. In fact Malebranche's writings were rejected by Rome.

    More significant were the Anglicans, and on the continent the Lutherans. So the blame lies mainly with the protestants. Of course today there is widespread support across the spectrum.

    If you want to trace back the ideas before modern science, you can certainly find them in antiquity. The Epicureans and Lucretius are a good place to start.

    As for the specific theological and philosophical ideas at play, this takes the discussion into theology, philosophy and the history of thought in these areas. It is a lengthy explanation and for most audiences requires some primer material. Again, there is Chapter 2 of Science's Blind Spot, though that is only the briefest of introductions.

    Also, I have made an attempt at a graphical representation which you can see here:

    http://www.darwinspredictions.com/Figure15.jpg

    It is a great question and for those interested in pursuing it further there is much reward waiting. It is one of those studies where your history teacher's lament "if you don't know your history then you'll just repeat the same mistakes" really comes true. It is interesting that many people today are not very familiar with the study of theology, the history of the church, and so forth, and they in fact often make the same sophmoric religious claims (while imagining they are free of religious influence).

    There seem to be consistent tendencies in our religious thinking, and they show up repeatedly, over the centuries, in the literature. It by no means began with Darwin or the Victorians. You can see very much the same claims made in today's evolutionists and in 17th c. thinkers.

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  86. Cornelius,

    "I made some powerful scientific points but they were met with empty stares while the professor’s metaphysical mandates for evolution received approving nods all around."

    That is typical of a secular societies. All secular societies are dying societies. St Paul explains it well in Romans. However his quote in 2 Thes. 2:9-12 explains the blank stares:

    "The coming of the lawlessness is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned."

    Faith leads to understanding. Apostasy leads to death. Those who are perishing, secular evolutionists, are incapable of understanding the truth. I know some Christians believe in evolution, but you have to look at the big picture, i.e. what the whole society believes.
    .

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  87. Hunter,

    When Darwin came up with the idea that organisms evolved he only had very limited recourses to prove or disprove his idea simply because, nobody knew about the existence of DNA, RNA, and all this.

    So, when I speak of modern science in terms of evolution it doesn’t start in the 17th century. It starts in 1953 when Watson and Crick published their discovery about the DNA.

    Only from there on it was possible to study genetic relationships between organisms. With this, only from there on it was actually possible to proove/disproove the ideas Darwin had.

    It just happened to be that Darwin’s idea turned out to be quite correct. Up to then, nobody could really tell if Darwin was right or wrong.

    Founded on this historical background, my scientific standpoint is that everything that happened before 1953 in terms of evolution can’t be part of the current discussion about the correctness, incorrectness, validity, invalidity, and motivation behind the modern scientific theory of evolution.

    There are certainly people who (want to) drag the old historical (religious) baggage into modern science for whatever reason.

    However, I don’t think it would be smart to use old evolution stuff (everything before 1953) in the discussion about the validity, invalidity, and motivation of modern scientific views of evolution (everything after 1953).

    We should certainly learn from mistakes made in the past, but I think we should not accuse modern science of whatever just because an old idea happens to turn out to be scientifically pretty reasonable.

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  88. When I asked the question which religious motivation is behind evolution then I meant which relitious motivation is behind the modern view of the scientific evolution theory (everything after 1953) which is about that we came across the surprising discovery, made possible by Watson and Crick) that organisms are genetically related with one another.

    I think we should be careful that we don't mix up history (everything before 1953) with modern science (everything after 1953).

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  89. Charles said, ""What about the organ of Corti that is essential for mammal hearing but is not found in a single reptile? Was the origin of this organ a saltation event?"

    It will always be possible to argue from ignorance but it would be much better if you had positive arguments for an alternative explanation instead. "


    It is the evolutionists that make the grand claim of repile-mammal evolution based heavily on the ear/jaw comparisons. Remember, this was offered up by evolutionists as evidence for evolution. Like Darwin, evolutionists feel like the onus is on others to show that it couldn't happen. Then when we do, they brush it off with empty rhetoric.

    How evolutionists get away with glossing over huge details is absolutely amazing.

    I'm just asking you guys to follow the ear/jaw evolution explanation through. Lots of bad theories have some explanatory power. So what about the organ of Corti... a saltation event?

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  90. Neal:

    "Like Darwin, evolutionists feel like the onus is on others to show that it couldn't happen."

    That's where you got it wrong. No one have to show that it couldn't happen. You have to explain how you think it happened, and why it is a better explanation than evolution. The burden of explaining how it happened is on both side!

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  92. So what about the organ of Corti... a saltation event?
    --------------------

    What particular stage in the fossil sequence shapes your question? Be specific.

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  93. Charles, are evolutionists secretly waiting for that something better because they know their theory is half-baked?

    Anyways, it would seem that if a hypothesis about the jaw/ear evolution puts forth an explanation as evidence they should follow it through completely. If I wanted a complete explanation of String theory I wouldn't accept its proponents pushing me for a better alternative when they discovery contradictory data. Evolutionists are the ones that are always claiming the scientific high ground and dismissing Design as nonsense from IDiots. That only leaves evolutionists on the playing ground. So follow through with the jaw/ear evolutionary explanation. Was the organ of Corti a saltation event?

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  94. emil, on the contrary, the more dna and rna is understood the more of a pandora's box is opened up for Darwinism. Genetic sequencing is undoing the "tree of life". It is busting up the selection criteria that formed the tidy nested hierarchies of biological classification.

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  95. Cornelius,

    I'll ask you the question directly.

    When you suggest that evolutionists are misrepresenting science by comparing evolution to gravity, exactly what are you referring to?

    A. Empirical observations of phenomena we attribute to gravity
    B. Gravitational theory, which explains those observations.

    This is not a difficult question. Nor is it irrelevant as you've clearly made this claim several times. Yet you've continued to avoid this issue.

    Perhaps your silence on this issue indicates you do not make a distinction between the two?

    However, empirical observations alone are insufficient to suggest that gravity will continue effect phenomena in a uniform way. Instead, it is gravitationally theory which provides an explanation to why phenomena would effected in a uniform way.

    Without it, all you can say is empirical observations we attribute to gravity will continue to in a uniform way in the future because empirical observations were uniform in the past.

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  96. Neal:
    "Charles, are evolutionists secretly waiting for that something better because they know their theory is half-baked?"

    Science works that way, every theory can be pushed away if sufficient evidence accumulate in favor of an alternative. And no, pointing at gap in knowledge is not a valid argument, neither is your own incredulity.

    "Evolutionists are the ones that are always claiming the scientific high ground and dismissing Design as nonsense from IDiots."

    Design is dismissing itself by presenting a false dichotomy between evolution and design. It's focusing it's energy on trying to disprove evolution hoping to win by default.

    You could always try to prove me wrong by explaining what we can learn about the organ of Corti from a design perspective, and how it is a better explanation than evolution...

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  97. Neal:
    ====
    You have no real evidence and this is why the majority of people in the world resist the grand claims that evolutionists make.
    ====

    Please show your data, AFAIK evolution denial only flourishes in nations with a high proportion of religious fundamentalism. Take a look to the public acceptance of evolution in Europe: Miller et al 2005 (Science). I can't link here but you can easily find it online for free. I don't know real statistics for other countries, but I can assure you that in South America, if you tell people on the street that evolution is false, you will get laughed over 70% of the time.

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  98. Charles, so your admitting the obvious, that the theory of evolution is half-baked?

    Anyways, have you read Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer? If you are interested in a positive explanation of Design regarding origins this would be an excellent resource.

    Design is not hoping to win by default. The bottom line is that evolutionists have failed to provide a sufficient mechanism to support its grand claim. A bad theory should get hammered.

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  100. emil:

    ===
    So, when I speak of modern science in terms of evolution it doesn’t start in the 17th century. It starts in 1953 when Watson and Crick published their discovery about the DNA.

    Only from there on it was possible to study genetic relationships between organisms. With this, only from there on it was actually possible to proove/disproove the ideas Darwin had.

    It just happened to be that Darwin’s idea turned out to be quite correct. Up to then, nobody could really tell if Darwin was right or wrong.
    ===

    Evolutionary truth claims did not begin in 1953.

    ===
    Darwin’s idea turned out to be quite correct.
    ===

    I didn't know that. Can you explain how evolution was proved?

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  101. Cornelius Hunter

    It is a bit OT but I realized that in

    http://www.darwinspredictions.com/Figure15.jpg

    you bravely – at least to me - list “testability“ as one of these unwarranted metaphysical claims. I assume you mean by that, that other explanations are rejected because they are not testable or at least are said to be not testable and that is taken as a justification for the ToE. Could you elucidate that point? I should admit that I consider testability as one of the key elements of (natural) science.

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