Wednesday, July 4, 2012

Evolutionists Are Now Saying That Evolution Created an Optimized Evolutionary Process

Evolutionists have always liked our immune system for its apparent Darwinian process of generating randomized antibodies and, through a feedback-selection process, amplifying those antibodies that successfully bind to the pathogens. Is it not an example of natural selection acting on random mutations—a proof-of-concept of Darwinian evolution before our very eyes? Such conclusions are another sign of the religious dogma that drives science. In fact our immune system not only operates in an infinitesimally smaller design space than would evolution, it performs its experiments astronomically faster than evolution ever could. Furthermore our immune system comes with a built-in, complex, feedback system that performs the selection. In other words, the selection is not natural as it is supposed to be in evolution. Also, there is that bugaboo that if evolution is true then it must have created our immune system. It would be yet another example of a hyper complex process that is somehow created by evolution, and is then enlisted as evidence for, or an example of, evolution itself. Not only that, but evolution would have created, as research continues to reveal, not only a hyper complex process but one that optimizes the production of those important antibodies.

Every calculus student knows that a mathematical description of a process can be optimized by finding the derivative and equating it with zero. But finding the derivative can be difficult, such as when the mathematical description includes integrals. This type of problem, known as the calculus of variations, is important in many engineering problems.

It also applies to our immune system. About ten years ago researchers used Pontryagin’s maximum principle—an important concept in engineering control theory involving the calculus of variations—to predict how our immune system works.

Our B cells produce antibodies but their division is more complicated than normal cell division. Rather than dividing to produce two identical daughter cells, B cell division is usually asymmetric as it produces two slightly different types of daughter cells. One of the daughter cells proceeds to produce antibodies but the other continues to adjust the antibody design. This approach optimizes the production of successful antibodies to fight off infections. Here is how one writer summarized this design:

Compared with symmetric division, in asymmetric division there is a tenfold increase in the number of antibodies produced. In addition, the cell that stays behind in the germinal center stores information regarding a successful antibody it has produced, and the optimization process thus concludes more quickly. "This kind of time-saving in antibody production can be a real life-saver in the case of a dangerous infection," explains Michael Meyer-Hermann.

This is another example of a hyper complex design that evolution’s random mutations must have luckily produced so that evolution’s natural selection could choose it and then evolution could proceed. It is difficult to overstate the absurdity of this howler. This is what happens when religious dogma drives science.

1. A few related notes, Darwinists did a 'literature bluff' on the immune system, in the Dover trial, trying to claim it supported Darwinism:

"A Masterful Feat of Courtroom Deception": Immunologist Donald Ewert on Dover Trial - audio
http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-20T15_01_03-08_00

In this following podcast, Casey Luskin interviews microbiologist and immunologist Donald Ewert about his previous work as associate editor for the journal Development and Comparitive Immunology, where he realized that the papers published were comparative studies that had nothing to do with evolution at all.

What Does Evolution Have to Do With Immunology? Not Much - April 2011 - podcast
http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2011-04-06T11_39_03-07_00

Falk’s fallacy - Feb. 2010
Excerpt: This (the immune system) is one of the most amazing processes ever described.,,, Whatever may be said about it, it is a highly regulated, specified, directed and choreographed process. It is obviously the product of overwhelmingly brilliant design,,,
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/falks-falacy/

Response to Kathryn Applegate - Caroline Crocker PhD.- cell biologist and immunologist - October 2010
Excerpt: Diversity of antibodies generated by B cells is due to deliberate, cell-engineered changes in the DNA sequence, not random mutations. In fact, I have never before heard the process whereby functional antibodies are formed (before they encounter antigen) described as mutation. And it is well-known that the appearance of functionality as a result of a mistake-mutation is extremely rare. Of course, after encountering antigen the hypervariable regions of the antibody DNA do undergo somatic hypermutation, but again this is in particular places and is controlled by enzymes.,,,

Generation of Antibody Diversity is Unlike Darwinian Evolution - microbiologist Don Ewert - November 2010
Excerpt: The evidence from decades of research reveals a complex network of highly regulated processes of gene expression that leave very little to chance, but permit the generation of receptor diversity without damaging the function of the immunoglobulin protein or doing damage to other sites in the genome.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/response_to_edward_max_on_talk040661.html

Of related note: Immunity bacteria are shown to be species specific (Regardless of the surprising result, Darwinists still insist evolution did it.)

Our Microbes, Ourselves: Billions of Bacteria Within, Essential for Immune Function, Are Ours Alone - ScienceDaily (June 21, 2012)
Excerpt: Chung repeated the experiment, only this time populating a third group of mice with microbes common to rats. This new group showed the same immune system deficiency as the humanized mice. "I was very surprised to see that," Chung said. "Naturally, I would have expected more of a half-way response."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120621130643.htm

2. It also applies to our immune system. About ten years ago researchers used Pontryagin’s maximum principle—an important concept in engineering control theory involving the calculus of variations—to predict how our immune system works.

Wow, a method used by engineers. Then it must have been designed, right?

Pontryagin’s maximum principle is an nice and elegant way to get analytical solutions, in this case a simple periodic function, but it's actually much easier to use numerical genetic algorithms as an optimization tool because you don't need to understand much math.

Natural selection is good at local optimization. Globally, not so much.

3. Of course it's an optimization process, Cornelius. And there's no reason why optimization processes shouldn't be nested.

4. And did you know that a spherical droplet minimizes the surface area at a constant volume of the liquid? OMG, that requires calculus of variations! How do the molecules of the liquid solve a complex mathematical problem that involves functional derivatives? One answer: Design.

1. oleg:

And did you know that a spherical droplet minimizes the surface area at a constant volume of the liquid? OMG, that requires calculus of variations!

Human immune system compared with drop of water. That's evolution for you.

2. Missed the point by a mile, Cornelius!

In both examples, we have an optimization problem that requires a great effort to solve (calculus of variation, functional derivatives, the whole enchilada). Yet nobody is surprised that molecules manage to "solve" this difficult mathematical problem. You know why? 'Cause molecules don't use variational calculus to do that. And neither did the immune system.

So I am not impressed by your references to calculus of variations.

3. Dr. Hunter states: "Human immune system compared with drop of water. That's evolution for you."

oleg retorts: "Yet nobody is surprised that molecules manage to "solve" this difficult mathematical problem. You know why? 'Cause molecules don't use variational calculus to do that. And neither did the immune system."

oleg perhaps you should look closer at a drop of water before you base your argument on the 'non-design' of water!

When we look at water, the most common substance on earth and in our bodies, we find many odd characteristics which clearly appear to be designed. These oddities are absolutely essential for life on earth. Some simple life can exist without the direct energy of sunlight, some simple life can exist without oxygen; but no life can exist without water. Water is called a universal solvent because it has the unique ability to dissolve a far wider range of substances than any other solvent. This 'universal solvent' ability of water is essential for the cells of living organisms to process the wide range of substances necessary for life. Another oddity is water expands as it becomes ice, by an increase of about 9% in volume. Thus, water floats when it becomes a solid instead of sinking. This is an exceedingly rare ability. Yet if it were not for this fact, lakes and oceans would freeze from the bottom up. The earth would be a frozen wasteland, and human life would not be possible. Water also has the unusual ability to pull itself into very fine tubes and small spaces, defying gravity. This is called capillary action. This action is essential for the breakup of mineral bearing rocks into soil. Water pulls itself into tiny spaces on the surface of a rock and freezes; it expands and breaks the rock into tinier pieces, thus producing soil. Capillary action is also essential for the movement of water through soil to the roots of plants. It is also essential for the movement of water from the roots to the tops of the plants, even to the tops of the mighty redwood trees,,,

Towering Giants Of Teleological Beauty - October 2010
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/towering-giants-of-teleological-beauty/

4. ,,,Capillary action is also essential for the circulation of the blood in our very own capillary blood vessels. Water's melting and boiling point are not where common sense would indicate they should be when we look at its molecular weight. The three sister compounds of water all behave as would be predicted by their molecular weight. Oddly, water just happens to have melting and boiling points that are of optimal biological utility. The other properties of water we measure, like its specific slipperiness (viscosity) and its ability to absorb and release more heat than any other natural substance, have to be as they are in order for life to be possible on earth. Even the oceans have to be the size they are in order to stabilize the temperature of the earth so human life may be possible. On and on through each characteristic we can possibly measure water with, it turns out to be required to be almost exactly as it is or complex life on this earth could not exist. No other liquid in the universe comes anywhere near matching water in its fitness for life (Denton: Nature's Destiny).

Here is a more complete list of the anomalous life enabling properties of water:

Anomalous life enabling properties of water
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/anmlies.html

Water's remarkable capabilities - December 2010 - Peer Reviewed
Excerpt: All these traits are contained in a simple molecule of only three atoms. One of the most difficult tasks for an engineer is to design for multiple criteria at once. ... Satisfying all these criteria in one simple design is an engineering marvel. Also, the design process goes very deep since many characteristics would necessarily be changed if one were to alter fundamental physical properties such as the strong nuclear force or the size of the electron.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/pro-intelligent_design_peer_re042211.html

Water's quantum weirdness makes life possible - October 2011
Excerpt: WATER'S life-giving properties exist on a knife-edge. It turns out that life as we know it relies on a fortuitous, but incredibly delicate, balance of quantum forces.,,, They found that the hydrogen-oxygen bonds were slightly longer than the deuterium-oxygen ones, which is what you would expect if quantum uncertainty was affecting water’s structure. “No one has ever really measured that before,” says Benmore.
We are used to the idea that the cosmos’s physical constants are fine-tuned for life. Now it seems water’s quantum forces can be added to this “just right” list.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.900-waters-quantum-weirdness-makes-life-possible.html

5. ba77, the spherical shape is assumed by a droplet of any liquid, not just water.

6. oleg you state, "the spherical shape is assumed by a droplet of any liquid, not just water."

And you know that 'spherical shapes' for drops of liquid are not designed how exactly???? Every universal constant that governs the fundamental atomic forces within drops of liquid, to ultimately give drops of liquid their spherical shape, are finely-tuned to a extreme degree.,, Thus once again you simply have no basis for your claim that the spherical shape is not designed!!!

Fine-Tuning For Life In The Universe
http://www.reasons.org/fine-tuning-life-universe

Evidence for the Fine Tuning of the Universe
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html

7. ba77: Every universal constant that governs the fundamental atomic forces within drops of liquid, to ultimately give drops of liquid their spherical shape, are finely-tuned to a extreme degree

That's laughable, ba77. There is no need to fine-tune interactions. As long as the energy of a molecule inside the liquid is lower than the energy of a molecule on its surface, energy minimization will require minimization of the surface area (at constant volume). Hence a spherical shape. That's why it is a universal effect. No fine-tuning.

8. "That's laughable, ba77"

Really???

Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322.)

If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 )

If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons. (Leslie, 1988, p. 299.)
http://www.discovery.org/a/91

Etc.. etc..

Oleg you simply have no basis for your claim that the basic spherical shape of drops of liquid are the result of a random accident, since if any of the fundamental forces of the universe differed even slightly then the drops of liquid would nor even exist in the first place (spherical or otherwise).,,, You have deluded yourself to think the shape is unintended when all you have done in reality is merely listed some of the superficial reasons why drops of liquid take on a spherical shape.,,, Whether on purpose or on accident you have IMO, at the end of the day, robbed yourself of the sense of wonder that is essential for true scientific discovery and understanding!

“There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle.”
Albert Einstein

9. ba77, you are barking up the wrong tree. Liquids don't require life!

10. But they require fine tuning to even exist. Go figure!

11. oleg:

Missed the point by a mile, Cornelius!

Actually I didn't miss it at all.

5. Off topic: ENV just put up a interview with Casey Luskin related to the recent book that he, Axe and Gauger, just wrote:

Science & Human Origins: Interview with Casey Luskin - podcast
http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2012-07-04T09_43_01-07_00

6. Did you know that you can use calculus of variations to show that the shortest path between to points in the plane is a straight line? How could animals possibly solve such a problem? Their brains must have been designed.

7. Oleg states:

"that requires calculus of variations! How do the molecules of the liquid solve a complex mathematical problem that involves functional derivatives? One answer: Design."

Troy states:

"Did you know that you can use calculus of variations to show that the shortest path between to points in the plane is a straight line? How could animals possibly solve such a problem? Their brains must have been designed."

Though stated with a mocking tone, the fact is that since mathematical order is found throughout nature, from the largest scale to the smallest scale, is in fact a VERY strong indication of the design in the universe:

Notes:

Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe.
Galileo Galilei

The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner
Excerpt: The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning.

Calvin and Hobbes - cartoon - The Mathematical Atheist
http://s3.hubimg.com/u/270622_f520.jpg

The Underlying Mathematical Foundation Of The Universe -Walter Bradley - video
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491491

How the Recent Discoveries Support a Designed Universe - Dr. Walter L. Bradley - paper

On discovering the laws of planetary motion, Johann Kepler declared:

‘O God, I am thinking your thoughts after you!’
http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/introductory_articles/bcs104.html

"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. … This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called “Lord God” παντοκρατωρ [pantokratòr], or “Universal Ruler”… The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect."
Sir Isaac Newton - Quoted from what many consider the greatest science masterpiece of all time, his book "Principia"

How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought which is independent of experience, is so admirably appropriate to the objects of reality? Is human reason, then, without experience, merely by taking thought, able to fathom the properties of real things?
— Albert Einstein

“… if nature is really structured with a mathematical language and mathematics invented by man can manage to understand it, this demonstrates something extraordinary. The objective structure of the universe and the intellectual structure of the human being coincide.” – Pope Benedict XVI

etc.. etc.. etc..

1. Jesus must be proud of you for spamming another post! That's one extra virgin for you in heaven.

2. Troy you seem to have a a pretty big religious 'chip on your shoulder' for "Jesus". Did you have a bad experience with a fundamentalists religion growing up??? If so I'm sorry to hear about it. I know a Catholic man who had a very rough time with 'religion' because of a pedophile priest he encountered as he grew up. But he has worked through it and has become a very strong 'spiritual' Christian with a strong 'personal relationship' with God despite his traumatic experience growing up. Well regardless of whatever caused you to be so hostile towards "Jesus", the fact is that a VERY strong case can be made, from empirical evidence itself, that Christ actually rose from the dead:

Notes:

THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010
Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians

Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video
http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821

Mathematicians and physicists seem to have forgotten the lesson of incompleteness born out by Godel for they are currently trying to 'unify' the mathematical equations of Quantum Mechanics with the equations of General Relativity into a 'theory of everything' without considering that God is necessary to bring 'completeness' to logic. Needless to say they are running into severe difficulties in achieving unification. Yet, when one allows God into math, as Godel indicated must ultimately be done to keep math from being 'incomplete', then a very credible, empirically backed, reconciliation between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into a 'Theory of Everything' readily becomes apparent for us!

The God of the Mathematicians - Goldman
Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” - Kurt Gödel - (Gödel is considered by many to be the greatest mathematician of the 20th century)
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians

General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin - updated video
http://vimeo.com/34084462

Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics

Further note:

It is also interesting to note that 'higher dimensional' mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated;

The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss & Riemann – video
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/

3D to 4D shift - Carl Sagan - video with notes
Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity.

3. Apparently batspit77 is the only one left on duty to defend Creationist stupidity against attacks by the intelligent, educated segment of the population.

But never fear! Armed with his trusty {ctrl}C and [ctrl}V keys he'll fight off those sciency types with massive doses of batspit77 C&Ped blithering drivel!

4. And, incredibly, light minimizes the time of travel when it gets from point A to point B. That applies to light in the vacuum or in a medium or any combination thereof, with multiple mirrors or lenses in the way!

Just how does a beam of photons solve this terribly complex problem? Who taught them the calculus of variation? God, of course.

5. oleg you state:

"Did you know that you can use calculus of variations to show that the shortest path between two points in the plane is a straight line?"

And oleg, exactly why should a 'straight line' even exist as a rational concept in your mind if materialism was true. i.e. Exactly which material basis does the straight line and other geometrical principles come from? Children are born with this 'natural' ability!

Geometric Principles Appear Universal in Our Minds - May 2011
Excerpt: Villagers belonging to an Amazonian group called the Mundurucú intuitively grasp abstract geometric principles despite having no formal math education,,, Mundurucú adults and 7- to 13-year-olds demonstrate as firm an understanding of the properties of points, lines and surfaces as adults and school-age children in the United States and France,,,
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/05/universal-geometry/

Moreover oleg, why is this abstract concept of a flat, immaterial, 'straight line' found to govern material reality if materialism were actually true???

Did the Universe Hyperinflate? – Hugh Ross – April 2010
Excerpt: Perfect geometric flatness is where the space-time surface of the universe exhibits zero curvature (see figure 3). Two meaningful measurements of the universe’s curvature parameter, ½k, exist. Analysis of the 5-year database from WMAP establishes that -0.0170 < ½k < 0.0068.4 Weak gravitational lensing of distant quasars by intervening galaxies places -0.031 < ½k < 0.009.5 Both measurements confirm the universe indeed manifests zero or very close to zero geometric curvature,,,
http://www.reasons.org/did-universe-hyperinflate

As well oleg why does the Cosmic Background Radiation form a sphere instead of some other random geometric shape as would be expected in a 'randomly generated' universe?

Picture of CMBR
https://webspace.utexas.edu/reyesr/SolarSystem/cmbr.jpg

The Known Universe by AMNH – video

Proverbs 8:26-27
While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,,,

oleg exactly what rational reason is there for any of this if atheistic materialism were true? There simply is no rational reason for us to find that 'abstract' geometric concepts govern material reality if materialism were true! There simply is no reason, per materialism, to expect to find as such!

Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, and let us reason together,",,,

Music:

The Great Day (from The Story featuring Michael W. Smith and Darlene Zschech)
http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=WL6WPPNX

8. Yeah, just too bad that no contemporary writers bothered to report the Jesus zombie and all the other zombies that roamed Jerusalem according the babble. They must have overlooked that bizarre spectacle.

1. Troy, this is what Jesus tells you:

“You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins.” John 8:23-24

2. Troy, this is what Jesus tells you:

“You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins.” John 8:23-24

Is that what Jesus tells me, or is it what "John" wants me to believe the alleged Jesus tells me? At any rate, it's blackmail, isn't it? Believe in me or else. What kind of sociopath would say a thing like that? If that's your idea of a loving god, then I would suggest you carefully re-examine that idea.

3. "At any rate, it's blackmail, isn't it?"

No, it's a death row pardon for whoever will accept it!

G.O.S.P.E.L. Poetry Slam; To The Point
http://vimeo.com/20960385

4. No, it's a death row pardon for whoever will accept it!

Such a wonderful loving god. First it sends you to death row, then it pardons you on the condition that you worship it.

9. Dr Hunter I posted your article on FB and Caroline Evenbly Crocker, who I believe was in the movie 'Expelled', responded, "As an immunology PhD, I wrote about something like this a couple years ago. See here:"

10. Hunter,

Either your blog's comment database has been hacked or you are deliberately deleting multiple sequential comments without warning. Several comments by Thorton and myself disappeared from your recent post tiled, "Evolution Professor: Special-Creation “Effectively Eliminated”".

What's even stranger is that they disappeared temporarily for a short while, reappeared long enough for me to reply to a comment by Thorton and then they vanished permanently. What gives?

What's really annoying is that I was whipping Thorton's behind.

1. Flagellation interruptus

11. it is a absurdity to imagine evolution creating the immune system and this needed as a tool of evolution to continue.
surely in our time evolutionary biology will fall over.
It just is silly in its claims and impossible.