Sunday, April 15, 2012

Professor Scot McKnight Just Cited Dennis Venema (Approvingly)

One would think that after almost four hundred years Christians would finally give up on their evolutionary mandate. Malebranche, Burnet, Leibniz and the other early naturalists at least did not have all the scientific details. But today there is no such excuse. Now we know in incredible detail that the theological mandate against special divine action really is as unjustified as it has always seemed.

But this week Scot McKnight, recognized authority on the New Testament and professor in Religious Studies at North Park University, reminds us why evolution remains alive and well. McKnight discusses the recent meeting in New York City of leading Christians and the need to promote evolutionary thought. McKnight cites Dennis Venema’s evolutionary apologetics as an example of what is needed.

In one example Venema repeats the scientifically bogus, theological argument for human-chimpanzee common ancestry based on the human chromosome #2. You can read more about the problems with this evidence here, here and here.

The bottom line is that the human chromosome #2 evidence allowed evolution to dodge a bullet. It is a gross misrepresentation of science to claim this as evidence for common ancestry any more than any other similarity. We share similar a body plan with the chimp also. So what? A similarity does not demonstrate an evolutionary relationship.

But as always the “So what” in evolutionary thought comes from theology, not science. As Venema concludes:

What makes shared synteny for humans and chimpanzees challenging from an anti-common descent viewpoint is that there is no good biological reason to find the same genes in the same order in unrelated organisms, and every good reason to expect very different gene orders. … In summary, should God have wished to avoid the appearance of common ancestry between humans and chimpanzees, there seem to have been many gene orders and chromosome structures available to Him to use for either species. … While this pattern makes perfect sense in light of common ancestry and acts as an important independent test of phylogenies, it continues to puzzle those who attempt to explain life apart from evolution.

When Venema explains that “there is no good biological reason to find the same genes in the same order in unrelated organisms” he is commenting on creation. It is a religious argument, not a scientific argument. An argument that McKnight has precisely the right expertise to dissect.

Amidst all of the scientific jargon lies religion at the steering wheel. It all sounds so technical, but like the rudder of a ship, religion is firmly in control. Which reminds us of those prescient words from the brother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.

See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

James’ words about the tongue reminds us of religion. It brings about many good things, but it also brings about lies.

I have no idea if the human and chimp genomes share a common naturalistic origin, but I do know religion when I see it. The evolutionary argument, as reiterated here by Venema, is about God, not science. Evolution is not a scientific finding, it is a religious lie. Perhaps we evolved, perhaps we didn’t, but the science indicates the latter.

Religion drives science, and it matters.

19 comments:

  1. Good for Dennis. For a Christian he's refreshingly honest (reminds me of Todd Wood in that respect), and deserves some support from his fellow Christians. The honest ones anyway.

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    1. Norm: Why are religious claims in science "refreshingly honest"?

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    2. Cornelius Hunter

      Norm: Why are religious claims in science "refreshingly honest"?


      Cornelius: Why do you beat up and rob helpless old ladies?

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    3. Bonobo face, why do you beat up and rob helpless old Christian ladies?

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  2. CH: When Venema explains that “there is no good biological reason to find the same genes in the same order in unrelated organisms” he is commenting on creation. It is a religious argument, not a scientific argument. An argument that McKnight has precisely the right expertise to dissect.

    Religious people use to think thunder represented God's anger. Does this mean that any theory about metrology somehow becomes a religious argument? Is there some statue of limitations by which a theory of metrology isn't a religious argument because no main stream religion has claimed thunder represents God's anger in the last 50 years or so?

    If some religious group decides to claim quantum mechanics is directly caused by their preferred supernatural being, would this suddenly mean the MWI of quantum mechanics would become a religious argument?

    If not, why?

    In other words, your argument suggests that science is somehow held hostage by religious claims regarding any phenomena. But this falls apart under criticism.

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  3. Cornelius Hunter

    When Venema explains that “there is no good biological reason to find the same genes in the same order in unrelated organisms” he is commenting on creation. It is a religious argument, not a scientific argument. An argument that McKnight has precisely the right expertise to dissect.

    Amidst all of the scientific jargon lies religion at the steering wheel. It all sounds so technical, but like the rudder of a ship, religion is firmly in control.


    LOL! Preach it Brother C! I do believe you'd tell us gravity is a religious theory if the DI paid you a bit more.

    James’ words about the tongue reminds us of religion. It brings about many good things, but it also brings about lies.

    Pretty much the only true statement in the whole OP.

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    1. Bonobo face:

      Pretty much the only true statement in the whole OP.

      LOL. It does not surprise me that you would like it seeing that you're a self-righteous, holier-than-thou preacher, just like James. Not all Christians accept James's preaching, BTW. I know I don't. His epistle was not included in the New Testament until very late in Church history.

      By the way, how's your dirt worshiping religion treating you these days, bonobo face? Making any money? Or do you do it for free?

      ahahaha... AHAHAHA... ahahaha...

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  4. Hunter, I was with you until you quoted James. I also find it hard to accept your claim that "have no idea if the human and chimp genomes share a common naturalistic origin" but that's a topic for another day. I want to say something about James.

    James was never chosen as an apostle by Jesus. He took over the early church in Jerusalem and preached circumcision. Not even Peter could stop him. This is the same church that sent spies to the gentile churches in Asia led by the apostle Paul. Jame's spies would join the gentile Christians in the urinals to see if they were circumcised. Imagine that. This made Paul furious and he let them know it in no uncertain terms. He accused them of spying on their liberties. Check it out. It's in the New Testament.

    So I have zero respect for James. The man was a puritanical preacher who believed and preached that we are saved by our good works and not by our faith in the sacrifice of our savior. Christians should not give his words so much importance. Just my opinion, of course. You are free to believe in whatever your heart tells you.

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  5. A common error: similarity = sameness. A case of hasty conclusion? Dicto simpliciter

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  6. I'm curios CH. Above you make the following statement about your beliefs:

    CH: "I have no idea if the human and chimp genomes share a common naturalistic origin, but I do know religion when I see it."

    But back in January when I asked you the question point blank

    T: "Cornelius, do you accept that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor?"

    you replied

    CH: "Do I accept that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor? Of course not, I’m not a lying fool. I don’t turn science upside down to satisfy some silly religion"

    Assuming you're not lying in your new statement in this OP, what evidence made you change your mind?

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    1. There you go again. I keep explaining that evolution is a form of extreme rationalism. Such rationalists eschew uncertainty and do not do well with theory evaluation and acknowledging there are things we just don't know. Certainty was crucial for Descartes. Ironically, such rationalists end up with absurdity, which they insist is true. A fascinating dynamic.

      So evolutionists cannot distinguish between (i) not accepting something and (ii) rejecting it. They cannot understand not taking a side. They ask me if I accept evolution. Of course not. I take the scientific evidence seriously, and from that perspective evolution is unlikely.

      But evolutionists cannot understand that. What that translates to, in their way of thinking, is that you are on the other side. You must be rejecting evolution. You must have ulterior, religious motives, just like they do.

      They cannot understand that one can "not accept" a low probability theory, yet at the same time realize that theory could well be true. It would be shocking, but surprises happen in science.

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    2. Cornelius Hunter

      There you go again. I keep explaining that evolution is a form of extreme rationalism.


      You mean you keep making the baseless assertion. But we understand.

      So evolutionists cannot distinguish between (i) not accepting something and (ii) rejecting it.

      I understand perfectly CH. In this OP when you said "I have no idea" you were not accepting or rejecting common ancestry. When you said "Of course not, I’m not a lying fool." you were emphatically rejecting common ancestry.

      I'd just like to know why you changed your position from certainty to uncertainty. Unless you're not being honest with us.

      But evolutionists cannot understand that.

      We understand that some people take money to lie about science. Sadly we see examples of that all too often.

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    3. Bonobo face:
      I'd just like to know why you changed your position from certainty to uncertainty.

      Bonobo face has a serious reading comprehension problem. But then again, so do all dirt worshipers, er, I mean evolutionists. LOL.

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  7. Lots of good points in this thread.
    Indeed its all about God would do this or not do that.
    this is what they would try to persuade people about.
    Yet the greatest natualist , Solomon, who ever lived not only examined nature but examined the ape.
    in his writings he stresses man is the top part of creation yet within creation or rather the equation of nature.
    We simply were given the best bodies for beings made in the image of God.
    What other type of body would be better?
    The ape form is the best one for us.
    it could only be we would be in nature as nature is.
    All nature has two eyes, legs, ears etc.
    God would not make us separate from the common program just to prove us separate.
    We have the ape body yet Adam and Eve were created from dust.
    I expect total sameness with apes and not much different from mice.
    Its not a hint or clue to look like apes and conclude a common origin.
    It could only be that way if we are a part of nature but unrelated to nature in our moral and intellectual God like image.
    its all just lines of reasoning for people to be persuaded we are apes cause we have the same body.
    Genesis explains our origin.

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    1. I like what you wrote. Let me add that, if we look like apes, so do the gods (the elohim) who created us in their image. Personally, I'm proud to look like an ape. Apes are extremely complex animals. We're just better, much better. As king David once wrote, we are gods.

      But then again, it is not really us who look like apes but the apes who look like us. Why? Because the model on which humans were patterned preceded the apes.

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  8. From last two posts it looks like I was created in 4 days, I'm a god, better than chimp. Cool.

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    1. And James was kind of a wanker,even if he was Jesus's brother.

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  9. Louis Savain.
    No my point was that nature is unrelated to God in looks.
    Only our bodies are in the image of common design in nature.
    Our being is in the image of god which is unrelated to nature in its biology.

    The apes don't look like us but rather all biology looks the same with minor differences. Its from the same rack.
    We all have eyes, ears, butt, arms and in our bodies the basic same machine.
    its simply a single computer program with detail differences for important reasons.
    We simply look like apes because they are the best bodies for a intelligent being to use.
    What else? It could only be this way.
    In fact evolution has gotten away with a line of reasoning about the unlikelyness of us looking like apes if we were created special.
    In reality it could only be that way.
    Its impossible for our God image to have a biological reality.
    God is spirit and so are we.

    Creationists(YEC) also need to understand this and stop looking for differences between us and apes.
    its all in vain.
    We have the ape body lock, stock, and bannana.

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