Krauss, a theoretical physicist and head of The Origins Project at Arizona State University, is not the first evolutionist to defy the age-old wisdom that something does not come from nothing. World-famous physicist Stephen Hawking popularized the idea in a recent book he co-authored entitled The Grand Design.
Krauss and Hawking use gravitational theory and quantum mechanics to argue that, in fact, such spontaneous creation is all but inevitable. Their narratives appeal to graduate-level physics which most people do not understand, but the basic idea of a strictly naturalistic creation story goes back centuries.
The intellectual necessity of naturalism
In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, with the rise of modern science and the Enlightenment, the urge for strict naturalism was promoted by various Christian traditions. Both in England and on the continent, Christians were refining a range of theological views that required science to describe the world’s origins strictly in terms of natural law. The dozen or so views that emerged fell into two broad categories. One category dealt with the divine attributes while the other dealt with epistemology and man’s knowledge. For short, we may refer to them as the “greater god mandate” and the “intellectual necessity” for naturalism.
In each category a foundational theological view supported various specific arguments for naturalism. One argument from the intellectual necessity view, which became more clear in the eighteenth century, was that special divine action (or primary causation) interfered with scientific progress, or even made science impossible.
As Baden Powell had insisted, all of science depends on the principles of uniformitarianism. Darwin’s confidant J. D. Hooker was more direct. Though he found special creation and evolution at an empirical standoff, neither theory with a clear advantage, he opted for the latter for its “great organizing potential.” It was not that evolutionary theories were “the truest,” he wrote to William H. Harvey in 1859, “but because they do give you room to reason and reflect at present, and hopes for the future, whereas the old stick-in-the-mud doctrines … are all used up. They are so many stops to further inquiry; if they are admitted as truths, why there is an end of the whole matter, and it is no use hoping ever to get any rational explanation of origin or dispersion of species—so I hate them.”
A law-like origins of the world, on the other hand, supported the accrual of knowledge. Darwin enunciated this view when he explained that acceptance of his theory of evolution was less important than the rejection of special divine action:
Whether the naturalist believes in the views given by Lamarck, by Geoffroy St. Hilaire, by the author of the ‘Vestiges,’ by Mr. Wallace or by myself, signifies extremely little in comparison with the admission that species have descended from other species, and have not been created immutable: for he who admits this as a great truth has a wide field open to him for further inquiry.
The rejection of special divine action was equated with scientific progress. Here Darwin extrapolated his metaphysical argument to arrive at the ultimate proof against creation. His main point, that no creator ever would have intended for this world, was now protected against counter arguments because such counter arguments would be unscientific.
Darwin repeatedly used metaphysical arguments against creation to prop up evolution, but now he declared that counter arguments would be out-of-bounds since they were unscientific. Darwin correctly observed that creation and its supporting arguments hinge on one’s concept of God, but he conveniently forgot that arguments against creation equally hinge on one’s concept of God. For Darwin, it was fair game to argue against creation but not for it. Thus, evolution was the correct scientific conclusion. In fact, what good science required was a naturalistic explanation, regardless of what particular explanation was used.
Since Darwin this theological argument has gained strength. For Niles Eldredge, the key responsibility of science—to predict—becomes impossible when a capricious Creator is entertained:
But the Creator obviously could have fashioned each species in any way imaginable. There is no basis for us to make predictions about what we should find when we study animals and plants if we accept the basic creationist position. … the creator could have fashioned each organ system or physiological process (such as digestion) in whatever fashion the Creator pleased.
In his text Paul Moody explains that without strict naturalism one does not have an explanation at all:
it amounts to saying, ‘Things are this way because they are this way.’ Furthermore, it removes the subject from scientific inquiry. One can do no more than speculate as to why the Creator chose to follow one pattern in creating diverse animals rather than to use differing patterns.
Likewise Tim Berra warns that we must not be led astray by the apparent design in biological systems, for it “is not the sudden brainstorm of a creator, but an expression of the operation of impersonal natural laws, of water seeking its level. An appeal to a supernatural explanation is unscientific and unnecessary—and certain to stifle intellectual curiosity and leave important questions unasked and unanswered. ” In fact, “Creationism has no explanatory powers, no application for future investigation, no way to advance knowledge, no way to lead to new discoveries. As far as science is concerned, creationism is a sterile concept.”
Lawrence Krauss and the intellectual necessity
And so it is not surprising to hear Lawrence Krauss, at the 3:14 mark in the above lecture, rehearse the same, centuries-old, intellectual necessity theology in support of his conviction that something, in fact the entire universe, just happened to spontaneously arise from nothing:
I am going to a talk about our modern picture of cosmology and how it has changed our view of the universe—the past and the future, and in some sense how that picture is clearly remarkable. And far more remarkable than the fairly tales that are made up in most religious situations.
But the key point is mystery. That is one of the things that makes science so special I think. It is that scientists love mysteries. They love not knowing. That’s a key part of science. The excitement of learning about the universe. And that again is so different than the sterile aspect of religion where the excitement is apparently knowing everything, although clearly knowing nothing.
There you have it. Without naturalism there is not only no excitement, there is no knowledge. We are left “apparently knowing everything” but “clearly knowing nothing.” Given this truth, then of course, we must have evolution.
Everything came from nothing and if you don’t agree, then you know nothing. Religion drives science, and it matters.
So now theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss is an evolutionist.
ReplyDeleteAnd Cornelius Hunter is an empiricist.
Not to be pedantic, Pedant, but Krauss is not just an evolutionist, but in the words of Cornelius, he's an "evolution professor". It appears that in Cornelius' world, if you're an evolutionist and a professor - in whatever field of study - then you are automatically an evolution professor.
ReplyDeleteI have to say Krauss is one of the more stupid atheists around. Krauss is the idiot who also said
ReplyDeleteAs my friend, Steve Weinberg, who’s a physicist and notably anti-religious, has said, “Science does not make it impossible to believe in God. It just makes it possible to not believe in God.”.
This reveals what is at the root of Krauss' interest in science. He is not after truth but rather an excuse for him to be an atheist.
Cornelius,
ReplyDeleteKrauss: ...where the excitement is apparently knowing everything...
Cornelius: Without naturalism there is not only no excitement,...
I thought I'd just add this to the growing list of evidence for my claim that Cornelius can't read.
Isn't it funny how atheists ignore known scientific principles, such as first cause/cause and effect and the law of biogenesis simply because they contradict their beliefs?
ReplyDeleteTBlog -
ReplyDeleteThis reveals what is at the root of Krauss' interest in science. He is not after truth but rather an excuse for him to be an atheist.
An excuse to be an atheist? Why on Earth would anyone need an excuse to not believe in something? Do you have an excuse to not believe in unicorns or Santa?
Nat Vel -
Isn't it funny how atheists ignore known scientific principles, such as first cause/cause and effect and the law of biogenesis simply because they contradict their beliefs?
None of these are contradicted by atheism. No science principles contradict atheism.
I actually quite enjoyed the OP - mostly, I think, because Cornelius spent much of the time quoting others who were talking complete sense.
ReplyDeleteA law-like origins of the world, on the other hand, supported the accrual of knowledge.
Yes, that is quite right. A naturalistic worldview allows the acquisition of scientific knowledge, while a worldview which allows for the supernatural does not. I am genuinely impressed that you recognise this point at all, though its deeper implications obviously haven't quite hit home yet.
Here Darwin extrapolated his metaphysical argument to arrive at the ultimate proof against creation.
No. No-one was trying to disprove creation. The point was already made - to perform science we must assume a naturalistic world.
And this point did not begin with Darwin, so I don't know why you are trying to attribute it to him.
His main point, that no creator ever would have intended for this world...
No, that was NOT his point. His point was that we have to ASSUME a naturalistic world in order to scientifically investigate it. You just quoted him saying exactly that. How can you so totally misunderstand a passage you yourself have quoted?
There you have it. Without naturalism there is not only no excitement, there is no knowledge. We are left “apparently knowing everything” but “clearly knowing nothing.”
You sound offended. Like he has insulted you. You have indeed given his words a twist - that isn't QUITE what he's saying, but the root point is there, and you haven't at all refuted it. The increase in knowledge of our world is only possible by assuming naturalism. That is perfectly true. You have done nothing to show otherwise.
Given this truth, then of course, we must have evolution.
Non-sequitur. This is a physicist talking about the origin of the universe. Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with this.
tardological blog said:
ReplyDelete"He is not after truth but rather an excuse for him to be an atheist."
The thing is, there's no "truth" in your fairy tale beliefs.
irrational velour said:
"Isn't it funny how atheists ignore known scientific principles, such as first cause/cause and effect...."
Ya know, you're right. From now on all atheists should adopt the belief and assert that a pink unicorn named Fifi was the first cause.
How exactly do these 'great' physicists explain where these laws (quantum mechanics and gravity) were before the universe existed? Correct me if I'm wrong but are not physical laws simply a way to describe the way the universe operates, so if there is no universe, logically there are no laws so how can they have any part in the creation of the universe of which they are a part?
ReplyDeleteWell then, who or what created "God"?
ReplyDeleteGod didn't need a Creator. He is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. He has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a 'fairy tale'
ReplyDeletegigabomber -
ReplyDeleteHow exactly do these 'great' physicists explain where these laws (quantum mechanics and gravity) were before the universe existed?
Well for one thing, we cannot be certain that the concept of 'before the Big Bang' makes any sense at all. Some theories postulate that time itself (at least as we know it) came into being with the Big Bang, so there was no 'before' it. Asking what existed before the beginning of time is like asking what is north of the north pole.
Others merely assert the laws of physics are merely brute facts. The whole concept of asking where they 'came from' is a bizarre one. Laws of physics are not crafted, they are not activated - they are simply a way of describing how physical objects interact.
Rather like Hawkins conjecturing that the Prime Mover might be a principle or law.... an abstract concept!
DeleteNot too swift outside of their chosen 'turf' some of these people. But where else can they go, while physics keeps building up its wall of paradoxes, imponderable by definition.
A pound to a pinch of snuff, the weirdness of quantum physics, physics at all extremes, signifies they have reached the interface of matter and spirit.
Melinda said...
ReplyDeleteGod didn't need a Creator. He is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. He has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a 'fairy tale'
Evidence please.
Melinda -
ReplyDeleteGod didn't need a Creator. He is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. He has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a 'fairy tale'
No, that is not an objective, verifiable fact. It is merely dogma. Claims without evidence. Stories with no footing in reality. You might find 'fairy stories' perjorative, but it seems pretty apt.
Not at all. You secular 'fundies' live by fairy tales. And die the death by them intellectually. We can live with your expiring curses.
Delete"God didn't need a Creator. He is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. He has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a 'fairy tale'"
ReplyDeleteFifi the pink unicorn didn't need a Creator. She is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. She has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a fairy tale. Praise Fifi.
Melinda said...
ReplyDeleteGod didn't need a Creator. He is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. He has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a 'fairy tale'
If God is a necessary being, "entire and whole and perfect" having no need of or dependency on anything outside itself, then why did it bother to create the Universe at all?
Religion drives science out of the classroom, and it matters.
"...why did it bother to create the Universe at all? "
ReplyDeleteHe was bored of Fifi, that's why.
Ian, why did you bother to post on this blog? Don't you have a life outside this blog?
ReplyDeleteSo you have no answer either. It's okay you admit you don't know.
DeleteReligion drives science out of the classroom, and it matters.
Mel said,
ReplyDeleteGod didn't need a Creator. He is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. He has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a 'fairy tale'
The most sensible conclusion! Arguing nothing comes from something is ludicrous since it never happens. Time was created with the universe, so anything outside the universe is not in our time, so outside our rules of cause and effect. An infinite number of universes is not an answer either. Where did they come from, some infinite universe creating process without intelligence? Sound ridiculous to me.
It's no wonder most people reject atheism, it is just to implausible.
.
Neal -
ReplyDeleteIan, why did you bother to post on this blog? Don't you have a life outside this blog?
Wow, that was quite rude and unnecessary, wasn't it, Neal? Especially from someone who is a regular poster here too...
Peter -
The most sensible conclusion!
Not really. No more sensible than 'A magic unicorn did it'.
Time was created with the universe, so anything outside the universe is not in our time...
In which case there was no 'before' the Big Bang. There was never a time when the universe did not exist, from which it suddenly came into being.
Sound ridiculous to me.
Argument from incredulity. What you find ridiculous is besides the point. What matters is evidence.
It's no wonder most people reject atheism, it is just to implausible.
Oh, the irony of someone claiming atheism to be implausible when they are advocating the least plausible proposition there is - a being who is infinite in every way. There literally cannot be a less likely, and therefore less plausible, being.
tedford spewed:
ReplyDelete"Ian, why did you bother to post on this blog? Don't you have a life outside this blog?"
Look who's talking.
`
peter asked without thinking:
ReplyDelete"Where did they come from, some infinite universe creating process without intelligence?"
Where did "intelligence" (your chosen imaginary god) come from?
Neal Tedford: "Ian, why did you bother to post on this blog? Don't you have a life outside this blog?"
ReplyDelete...says the man who has several thousand posts on said blog.
Neal, your lack of self-awareness never ceases to amaze.
Derick, good to have you back.
ReplyDeleteMy reply to Ian was a veiled answer to why need of/dependency is not a valid argument. Most people post here out of interest or entertainment.
Do you know what a strawman argument is?
Neal,
ReplyDeleteAny chance of some evidence that a million people turned Christian within a generation of the "resurrection", like you claimed on another thread?
You wouldn't want us to think you're a fantasist, do you?
troy,
ReplyDeleteA million people in the Roman empire by the end of the first century. This is not including other parts of the world. 25,000 or more had been executed by then also.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=320929
Neal
ReplyDeleteMy reply to Ian was a veiled answer to why need of/dependency is not a valid argument. Most people post here out of interest or entertainment
So God created us for entertainment purposes?
Neal -
ReplyDeleteA million people in the Roman empire by the end of the first century. This is not including other parts of the world. 25,000 or more had been executed by then also.
Well colour me surprised. That does sound like a lot.
Unfortunately the point that a belief is not verified by the sheer number of people who believe it (or how quickly an idea catches on) still stands.
An excuse to be an atheist? Why on Earth would anyone need an excuse to not believe in something? Do you have an excuse to not believe in unicorns or Santa?
ReplyDeleteRitchie, Hawks said you are illiterate. “It(science) just makes it possible to not believe in God.”
By the way do you know how stupid you sound when you say that you can’t tell the difference between not believing in God from not believing in unicorns? I know it might play well with you idiotic atheist friends but it just shows that you are completely ignorant to the depth of the subject. It makes you sound even more stupid than someone who says that Homo sapiens evolved from chimpanzees.
Human beings in cultures around the world have described over 2,500 different Gods in the last 3000+ years. Each culture claims their Gods are the only true ones.
DeleteHow do you decide which God(s) to believe in?
tardological blog threw some poo:
Delete"By the way do you know how stupid you sound when you say that you can’t tell the difference between not believing in God from not believing in unicorns? I know it might play well with you idiotic atheist friends but it just shows that you are completely ignorant to the depth of the subject. It makes you sound even more stupid than someone who says that Homo sapiens evolved from chimpanzees."
There's no more evidence for your chosen imaginary god than there is for unicorns. Both have no evidence.
The "depth of the subject"? You've got to be joking. Religious beliefs are as shallow as anything can be. They're just made up nonsense.
I see that you brought up the arrogant and mistaken 'I ain't no filthy ape!' boast. Actually, you and all other humans have a long ancestry that includes not only apes but a whole bunch of other critters.
TBlog -
Deletedo you know how stupid you sound when you say that you can’t tell the difference between not believing in God from not believing in unicorns?
They are both beliefs in totally unevidenced mythological beings. The only pertinent difference is that a lot of people really do take the idea of God seriously. But that doesn't make it any more likely to be true.
I know it might play well with you idiotic atheist friends but it just shows that you are completely ignorant to the depth of the subject.
Unless this 'depth' involves tangible, objective supporting evidence then everything else is just wishy-washy fantacism.
It makes you sound even more stupid than someone who says that Homo sapiens evolved from chimpanzees.
Homo sapiens evolved from a chimpanzees? Goodness, now that really would be a stupid thing to say. What a ridiculous notion. Laughable.
Homo sapiens and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor.
God didn't need a Creator. He is not bound by the rules of the universe or the limits of our minds. He has always been and always will be. That's truth and not a 'fairy tale'
ReplyDeleteExactly...that's why He's GOD. He is eternal and outside time and space, thus the laws of physics do not apply to Him. Only God could be the first cause because He is UNcaused.
Evidence please. What about the other 2,499 Gods that humans have worshiped / written about? How do you know it was your particular God that was the UNcaused one?
DeleteHow do you know Odin or Vishnu didn't create your God?
Thorton,
DeleteThe evidence we see in science that points to the origin of the Universe, the fine tuning of the Universe, the extreme complexity of life, etc. are all confirmatory of the truth claims made in scripture. Some even say that the scriptures have other scientific truths in them which are also confirmed by science (for example, time had a beginning, the Universe is expanding, etc).
But I agree with you that someone could take this scientific evidence and argue that another god created the Universe (or an advanced alien race for that matter).
In testing the truth claims of Christianity it is helpful to look at evidence in other spheres. For example, the evidence of the resurrection, historical evidence, archaeological evidence, sociological evidence, prophetic evidence etc. Quite frankly, it is possible to prove that Christianity is true from any of these other spheres all by themselves.
As one tiny example of evidence that corroborates the truth claims of Christianity, look up the Pilate Stone.
wgbutler -
DeleteI think you are greatly mistaken. I don't think you can build even a probable case for Christianity in any of the above fields. The archaeological evidence flatly contradicts many critical Biblical events, while the evidence for Jesus much better fits the pattern of a mythical figure. The Pilate Stone, for example, can support only that there was a Roman goveneror called Pontius Pilate. That is really precious little to go on.
Ritchie,
DeleteThe archaeological evidence flatly contradicts many critical Biblical events
And which archaeological evidence is that? You just kind of made a bald assertion without providing any evidence to back it up.
I'm aware that there have been broad assumptions in the past that certain Biblical stories weren't true because archeological evidence hadn't been found yet to support the Biblical narrative. In fact, atheistic scholars denied that Pontius Pilate existed for a long time (before the Pilate stone was found).
Usually it goes something like this. Atheist scholar X denies that Biblical story Y is accurate because no archaeological has been found to corroborate the biblical story. Then we find archeological evidence. Atheist X then wipes the egg off his face and stops claiming that Biblical story Y is inaccurate and moves on to criticize Biblical story Z.
while the evidence for Jesus much better fits the pattern of a mythical figure.
Now I know that you either really have no idea what you are talking about, or have such an anti-Christian bias that you are completely unwilling to be persuaded by very strong evidence. No serious scholar of New Testament history denies the historical existence of Jesus.
In fact, Bart Ehrman, who is NO friend of Christianity and has written several books trying to discredit it, plainly agrees that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure who existed. Observe this discussion on youtube where he appears on an atheistic radio program:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUQMJR2BP1w&feature=related
wgbutler777 said...
DeleteRitchie: "The archaeological evidence flatly contradicts many critical Biblical events"
And which archaeological evidence is that? You just kind of made a bald assertion without providing any evidence to back it up.
Archaeology flatly contradicts the global Noah's Flood story for one. There are well documented Neolithic sites like Jiahu, China in areas that show continuous habitation going back over 9000 years.
There are similar continuously occupied neolithic sites in the Middle East, like Catal Hoyuk in Turkey.
Apparently people in China and Turkey lived right through the Flood without even noticing.
wgbutler777 -
DeleteAnd which archaeological evidence is that?
1) As Thornton says, Noah's Flood.
2) No evidence for Jewish captivity within Egypt. In fact, as it turns out, Such work as building pyramids and raising monuments was done gladly by Egyptians themselves out of national pride, not the result of oppressed slave labour.
3) The exodus. The idea that Egypt could suffer such a chain of disasters and remain on its feet is laughable, and yet all dating of the exodus puts it during the very height of Egypt's empirical power.
4) There was certainly no Blitzkrieg lightening military campaign against the nations of Canaan, as supposedly led by Joshua.
Usually it goes something like this. Atheist scholar X denies that Biblical story Y is accurate because no archaeological has been found to corroborate the biblical story. Then we find archeological evidence. Atheist X then wipes the egg off his face and stops claiming that Biblical story Y is inaccurate and moves on to criticize Biblical story Z.
No, what usually happens is that Christian scholar A finds evidence which supports Biblical fact B, and concludes that therefore facts C-Z are all true too.
No-one ever claimed the Bible is TOTAL fiction. Its stories are myth and legend. This means it is indeed bound to include real people and places. But as for some of its more outlandish claims - such as the flood, exodus of Campaign of Joshua, those events ARE flatly contradicted by archaeology.
Now I know that you either really have no idea what you are talking about, or have such an anti-Christian bias that you are completely unwilling to be persuaded by very strong evidence.
Wrong on both accounts. There IS no strong evidence. There is not one single historical document (and I am excluding the gospels here) which supports the idea of an historical Jesus which was written by anyone who was alive during Jesus' lifetime. This alone is enormously suspicious. All we have are a slow trickle of exceedingly weak references dating, at the earliest, decades after Jesus' alleged death. This is not strong evidence. This is very, very poor evidence.
Yes we have the gospels, but these have their own problems. They are anonymous, don't even claim to be written by eye-witnesses, and the synoptic problem proves they are not independent accounts.
In fact, Bart Ehrman, who is NO friend of Christianity and has written several books trying to discredit it, plainly agrees that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure who existed.
No, he agrees Jesus MIGHT have been real. And on the basis of what evidence? All we really have is a heap of Pauline mythology, and people trying to decide whether it was more likely that this mythology stands on its own, or was projected onto a real (and undoubtedly entirely human) person.
Either way, Christianity rests upon the MYTHOLOGY being real. It is not enough that Jesus might have been a real, entirely human, person. Christianity absolutely necessitates the most outlandish, most magical, and therefore most unlikely, claims about him being true.
DeleteArchaeology flatly contradicts the global Noah's Flood story for one. There are well documented Neolithic sites like Jiahu, China in areas that show continuous habitation going back over 9000 years.
There are similar continuously occupied neolithic sites in the Middle East, like Catal Hoyuk in Turkey.
Apparently people in China and Turkey lived right through the Flood without even noticing.
Thorton,
The archeological evidence you cited would only contradict the flood account if you wanted to insist that the great flood must have happened within the past 7000 years and/or that that those structures were inhabited at the time of the flood.
It is possible that those structures were built and then were later abandoned during the time of the flood. Or it is possible that the human race is much older than 7000 years and the great flood happened tens of thousands of years ago. Hebrew scholars like Kenneth Kitchen believe that the human race is much older than 7000 years and the biblical geneologies only record the notable human beings after Adam.
Furthermore, there is OVERWHELMING evidence of a worldwide flood that had devastating consequences on the human race. How do we know this? We can look at flood legends around the world, including in civilizations which had no exposure to Judeo-Christian theology and compare their flood legends with the flood account written in the scriptures.
For example, in Hawaiian mythology there wsa a man named Nu'u who built an ark with which he escaped a Great Flood. He landed his vessel on top of Mauna Kea on the Big Island. Nu'u mistakenly attributed his safety to the moon, and made sacrifices to it. Kane, the creator god, descended to earth on a rainbow, explained Nu'u's mistake. Missionaries to Hawaii in the 19th century considered him analogous to Noah of the Bible.
In Chinese mythology there is a deity called "Nuwa" who went up to Heaven and stopped a great flood. Chinese mythology also claims that Nuwa created the world in seven days. BTW, the Chinese also have characters in their alphabet that have an eerie similarity to stories in Genesis:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1998/03/06/chinese-characters-and-genesis
Chaldean legends have a person named "Noa" lived with his three sons "Sem" "Japet" and "Chem" and their wives, and foresaw a great flood and built an ark. All of humanity was wiped out except for Noa and his family and their boat landed on a great mountain.
I could list these all day long but I think you get the idea. What are the odds that all of these disparate cultures and civilizations around the world, most of home had no contact whatsoever with Judeo-Christian theology, would come up with strikingly similar stories of a worldwide event by random chance?
Insteaed it is far more likely that something happened in the ancient history of
humanity that matches what is recorded in the bible.
wgbutler777 said...
DeleteThe archeological evidence you cited would only contradict the flood account if you wanted to insist that the great flood must have happened within the past 7000 years and/or that that those structures were inhabited at the time of the flood.
It is possible that those structures were built and then were later abandoned during the time of the flood.
No, it is not possible. Both the archeological and geologic evidence show those areas have never been under water, let alone a raging global Flood.
Or it is possible that the human race is much older than 7000 years and the great flood happened tens of thousands of years ago.
Humans are much older than 7K years. Modern humans arose approx. 100K years ago. There is no evidence of any kind in any time frame that indicates a global covering Flood that killed all life except for what was on a wooden boat.
For example, there are geologic formations like the Chief Mountain overthrust that would be impossible to form without hundreds of millions of years of plate tectonics and erosion. It is impossible to form in a one time Flood.
There is evidence from other sciences too. If all life was reduce to 2 or 7 pairs (or 4 for humans) only tens of thousands of years ago, then we'd see evidence of a severe genetic bottleneck in all species. But we don't.
Furthermore, there is OVERWHELMING evidence of a worldwide flood that had devastating consequences on the human race. How do we know this? We can look at flood legends around the world, including in civilizations which had no exposure to Judeo-Christian theology and compare their flood legends with the flood account written in the scriptures.
There are flood legends from many cultures because most human cultures developed in flood prone areas - coastal plains of flat river valleys. Maybe you can explain why we have so many significantly different flood stories when they all supposedly came from the same eight people on the Ark?
Then there's the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record. I like the way the clams and deciduous trees outran the velociraptors to higher ground, so that's why those fossils are always found in younger, topmost strata.
The topic of a literal Noah's Flood is not worthy of a scientific discussion. Even 5 year old children can understand the evidence that the Earth was totally destroyed and almost all life killed only tens of thousands of years ago.
Ritchie,
Delete1) As Thornton says, Noah's Flood.
I addressed this in my reply to Thorton.
2) No evidence for Jewish captivity within Egypt.
This is completely untrue. There is plenty of archeological evidence that corroborates the Biblical narrative of the Israelites and Egyptians.
One notable example is the Merneptah Stele which records the Egyptian king Merneptah boasting that he laid waste to Canaanite nations, including Israel. The Egyptian word he uses for "Israel" implies that there was no king of Israel at the time, which would put his accomplishments during the time of the judges. The discovery of this stele forced scholars to concede that the ancient Israelites lived in Canaan much earlier than they had previously been stating.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a015.html
Here is a good site which discusses much of the evidence for the Biblical narrative regarding Israel and Egypt:
http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm
It is very important that you don't fall into the trap of assuming that absence of evidence means evidence of absence. That is the same mistake that atheistic scholars have made time after time (such as with Pontius Pilate) only to end up with egg on their face.
4) There was certainly no Blitzkrieg lightening military campaign against the nations of Canaan, as supposedly led by Joshua.
Are you familiar with the archeological research on the city of Jericho? A British archeologist examined the site in the 1950s and found that the city had been destroyed following an unusual earthquake which allowed one small portion of the wall to remain standing while everyone else the wall fell. The city was then completely destroyed by fire. All of this matches the Biblical narrative perfectly.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/05/did-the-israelites-conquer-jericho-a-new-look-at-the-archaeological-evidence.aspx
No, he agrees Jesus MIGHT have been real.
Did you even listen to the Youtube link I posted? He said that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than for any other 1st century person! He was unequivocal. If your not willing to accept a man's own words about what he believes then either a) you didn't listen to the link I posted, or b) you are so strongly emotionally attached to the idea of Jesus being a mythical figure that you must have put your fingers in your ears and sang "la la la" while Bart Ehrman was talking!
Thorton,
DeleteThere is no evidence of any kind in any time frame that indicates a global covering Flood that killed all life except for what was on a wooden boat
Nevertheless, its entire possible that a cataclysmic flood occurred which wiped out most of humanity (which is what I personally believe).
For example, its possible that the most of humanity was in a particular region of the world. Let's say a large comet struck the Indian Ocean, and caused massive floods all over Asia, Africa, and Middle East. The flood would have been worldwide in the sense that most of humanity was wiped out but would not necessarily have destroyed all life on Earth. Before this happened, God warned Noah to build an ark in order to survive and stock it with lots of animals and seed so that he would have plenty of food to re-establish civilization and reseed life in that part of the Earth.
There are flood legends from many cultures because most human cultures developed in flood prone areas
These aren't just random flood stories. They bear striking similarity to one another, including in the general narrative, the number of people who survived, the warning from a higher power, even in the names. It's not plausible that all of these similarities occured by happenstance.
If all life was reduce to 2 or 7 pairs (or 4 for humans) only tens of thousands of years ago, then we'd see evidence of a severe genetic bottleneck in all species.
We have plenty of evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the human race, Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam. The evidence shows that Y-chromosomal Adam lived much later than Mitochondrial Eve. This corroborates the flood story perfectly. Really Y-chromosomal Adam should be called Y-chromosomal Noah!
wgbutler777 said...
DeleteFor example, its possible that the most of humanity was in a particular region of the world. Let's say a large comet struck the Indian Ocean, and caused massive floods all over Asia, Africa, and Middle East.
So now you're saying the Biblical version of the fountains of the deep is wrong, and that the Flood wasn't global. Interesting. There's also zero evidence that humanity was clustered only in that region, and tons of evidence humans were all over the globe. There's also zero evidence of a large asteroid impact in that any time in the last hundred million years.
You really are just making this up as you go along, aren't you?
We have plenty of evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the human race, Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam. The evidence shows that Y-chromosomal Adam lived much later than Mitochondrial Eve. This corroborates the flood story perfectly. Really Y-chromosomal Adam should be called Y-chromosomal Noah!
Of ferchrissake. Mitochondrial Eve was merely the woman who is maternally related to everyone alive today. She wasn't the only woman alive at the time. Just like Y-chromosomal Adam was a common male ancestor to us all, not the only man alive in his time.
It's amazing how many Creationists bollix up this particular example in their desperate attempts to prop up a belief in a literal Bible.
Thorton,
DeleteSo now you're saying the Biblical version of the fountains of the deep is wrong, and that the Flood wasn't global.
I don't believe that the Bible is incorrect in any way. I offered a possible hypothesis of how it could have happened, and a particular interpretation of Genesis that many Christians believe. The flood was universal in the sense that it wiped out most of humanity, but not necessarily a global flood in the sense that a giant ocean covered the entire Earth. This particular interpreation is put forward by people like Hugh Ross at RTB. (In other words, I'm not making stuff up as we go along, but I suspect that you are).
There's also zero evidence that humanity was clustered only in that region, and tons of evidence humans were all over the globe. There's also zero evidence of a large asteroid impact in that any time in the last hundred million years.
Now you're just making bald assertions in your never ending effort to be contradictory. There is also little or no physical evidence of the Tunguska event, but we know definitively that it happened a hundred years ago.
What is crystal clear is that:
1) Extremely diverse cultures all over the globe have very similar flood legends of a God or the gods warning a man (whose name often begins with an "N' and sounds alot like Noah) to build a big boat and populate it with animals in order to survive a coming flood. You've never given me a good answer for this very strange phenomena.
2) Genetic evidence of a human population bottleneck, with the common ancestor of all females living much earlier than the common ancestor of all males. You can offer an alternative explanation if you like, but that doesn't invalidate my explanation.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I find all this far more believable than a Universe popping into existence uncaused out of nothing and some slime self-organizing into a living organism and then mutating into a human being. Someone would have to be a fool to believe in that!
Offer me some evidence of the slime becoming alive and then I'll start to take you more seriously!
wgbutler777 said...
DeleteI don't believe that the Bible is incorrect in any way.
The flood was universal in the sense that it wiped out most of humanity, but not necessarily a global flood in the sense that a giant ocean covered the entire Earth
You are directly contradicting yourself. The Bible says the Flood covered the entire Earth. If you say it didn't, then that means you are saying the Bible is incorrect.
Make up your mind.
Now you're just making bald assertions in your never ending effort to be contradictory. There is also little or no physical evidence of the Tunguska event, but we know definitively that it happened a hundred years ago.
There is still a whole flattened forest in Tunguska. The Shiva crater in the Indian Ocean is estimated to be approx. 65MYA, roughly the same time frame as Chicxulub. There is also considerable archeological evidence for human habitation in Siberia going back some 45,000 years, and in the Americans over 20,000 years. Like most Creationists, your 'knowledge' of the basic facts is simply wrong.
1) Extremely diverse cultures all over the globe have very similar flood legends of a God or the gods warning a man (whose name often begins with an "N' and sounds alot like Noah) to build a big boat and populate it with animals in order to survive a coming flood. You've never given me a good answer for this very strange phenomena
Some cultures have Flood stories, but not all. Many of the Flood stories also significantly differ in their details - when it happened, who was involved, how they were saved. No one who has studied them think they all refer to the same event. You're really grasping at the thinnest straws.
2) Genetic evidence of a human population bottleneck, with the common ancestor of all females living much earlier than the common ancestor of all males. You can offer an alternative explanation if you like, but that doesn't invalidate my explanation.
Mitochondrial Eve is NOT evidence of a genetic bottleneck. Not even close.
What is a Mitochondrial Eve?
Your misunderstanding of the actual science and what the results mean is just abysmal.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I find all this far more believable than a Universe popping into existence uncaused out of nothing and some slime self-organizing into a living organism and then mutating into a human being.
What you personally choose to believe has no bearing on scientific reality.
wgbutler -
DeleteI addressed this in my reply to Thorton.
Humans need fresh water to live. And many ancient cultures lived on rivers and in coastal areas. Is it really a big surprise that many cultures have myths surrounding flooding?
The flood was universal in the sense that it wiped out most of humanity, but not necessarily a global flood in the sense that a giant ocean covered the entire Earth.
That is what the Bible claims. The Bible is accurate or it is not.
One notable example is the Merneptah Stele which records the Egyptian king Merneptah boasting that he laid waste to Canaanite nations, including Israel.
This stele lists Israel as one of four nations defeated/destroyed. It says nothing about enslaving the entire nation, which, if that is what they did, is an enormously curious omission. If fact there is no mention at all in ancient Egyptian records of a cohesive foreign ethnic group enslaved WITHIN Egypt.
Here is a good site which discusses much of the evidence for the Biblical narrative regarding Israel and Egypt
I only took a cursory glance (I'm a tad busy atm) but nothing jumped out at me as terribly conclusive there either. Just mentions about other groups such as the Hyksos and Apiru which are assumed to have something to do with the Israelites. Is there something specific which you think is pretty decisive?
It is very important that you don't fall into the trap of assuming that absence of evidence means evidence of absence
While that is true, you are falling into the very opposite trap and assuming that everything which hasn't yet been confirmed by archaeology will be, not matter how vastly unlikely that looks.
Are you familiar with the archeological research on the city of Jericho? A British archeologist examined the site in the 1950s and found that the city had been destroyed following an unusual earthquake which allowed one small portion of the wall to remain standing while everyone else the wall fell.
While there is indeed a wall that shows sign of destruction by earthquake (though why you call such activity unusual, I do not know), but it is in the wrong period - the Middle Bronze Age rather than the Late Bronze Age. Bryant Wood stands with very, very few archaeology who insists the dates are wrong and the wall must have fallen in the Late Bronze Age - to fit the Bible's dates. There are significant problems with this - notably it ignores there was also a Late Bronze Age settlement (though with no walls). Additionally, the Carbon dating methods he used to date what he calls City IV are now known to be in error. The British Museum issued a correction for the dates, which puts it back in the Middle Brnoze Age again (Bowman, S.G.E., Ambers, J.C., and Leese, M.N. "Re-Evaluation of British Museum Radiocarbon Dates Issued between 1980 and 1984." Radiocarbon vol.32, no.1, 1990, p. 59-79.).
Added to which, there is no sign of the sudden fall of surrounding sites (Ai, Gibeon, Beeroth, Lachish, Gezer, Hebron, Jarmuth, and Hazor) at this, or any synchronated time.
wgbutler (cont)
DeleteDid you even listen to the Youtube link I posted?
Okay, on that you caught me out. No I didn't. But having listened to it I am still unimpressed. To this 'evidence' he refers, I can only assume he means the documents which contain mentions of Jesus's mythology. Surely he thinks we can use the gospels as sources to somehow catch a glimpse of the real Jesus beneath the layers of myth? By why should we trust them as sources at all? They are, after all, obviously religiously-motivated, contradictory and interdependent. Besides, their accuracy is what we are trying to establish.
I cannot think what else he can possibly be referring to as 'evidence'. He certainly does not say what that might be. He did mention Paul, but Paul makes no claim to having seen the living Jesus. He is not a first-hand witness.
By the way, in contrast, we DO have a lot of first-hand evidence for Julius Caesar - coins and coins struck in his image, documents written by people who actually met him, letters written by his own hand, exactly the sort of things Jesus is conspicuously without.
Thorton,
DeleteYou are directly contradicting yourself. The Bible says the Flood covered the entire Earth. If you say it didn't, then that means you are saying the Bible is incorrect.
I am not contradicting myself. The Bible often uses the term "whole earth" as a way to refer to all humankind (for example in Genesis 6:12). Here is a very good article why someone can make the case from the Bible that the flood must have been a local flood:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html
There is still a whole flattened forest in Tunguska.
Of course there is, because it's only been a hundred years. 5,000, 10,000, 25,000 years from now there won't be a flattened forest there anymore. There will be a brand new forest with no trace of the forest ever having been flattened. Not to mention, this object would have exploded over an ocean leaving no physical traces whatsoever (not even a flattened forest).
Some cultures have Flood stories, but not all. Many of the Flood stories also significantly differ in their details - when it happened, who was involved, how they were saved. No one who has studied them think they all refer to the same event. You're really grasping at the thinnest straws.
I'm not grasping at straws. Many of these stories have extremely similar elements, including similar names, narrative, number of people, all humanity being wiped out, arks being built with animals on it (sometimes in the face of extreme skepticism and ridicule), etc.
As Stephen D. Peet wrote,
... there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.
Here is a pretty good website which outlines many of the flood legends:
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
Mitochondrial Eve is NOT evidence of a genetic bottleneck. Not even close.
I didn't say that Mitochondrial Eve was evidence of a genetic bottleneck. But we do have evidence that a genetic bottleneck occurred in human history. Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam ("Noah") merely corroborate the flood account in Genesis.
What you personally choose to believe has no bearing on scientific reality.
Neither do your personal beliefs have bearing on scientific reality. Science tells us that life can only come from life and that things can't happen without a cause. Your religious beliefs prevent you from accepting these basic facts and believing in all sorts of wild fairy tales without any scientific evidence whatsoever!
wgbutler777
DeleteI am not contradicting myself.
LOL! Yes you are, big time, with every post. If the Flood was local as you are now claiming then not everyone else on the planet and not all the animals were killed. The Bible says they were, except those on Noah's Ark. So the Bible is wrong.
T: "There is still a whole flattened forest in Tunguska."
Of course there is, because it's only been a hundred years."
But above you said there was "little or no physical evidence of the Tunguska event". You're contradicting yourself again.
T: "Mitochondrial Eve is NOT evidence of a genetic bottleneck. Not even close."
I didn't say that Mitochondrial Eve was evidence of a genetic bottleneck.
YES YOU DID. Here are your exact words from above
wgbutler777Jan 13, 2012 06:59 AM:
"We have plenty of evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the human race, Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam."
You can't even keep your cockamamie story straight post to post, let alone day to day.
Is there any scientific field you're *not* completely ignorant of we can discuss?
Thorton,
DeleteLOL! Yes you are, big time, with every post. If the Flood was local as you are now claiming then not everyone else on the planet and not all the animals were killed.
I think its pretty clear what I was saying. The flood was geographically local but universal in the sense that all of the humans except for Noah and his family were wiped out. I don't think all the animals were wiped out, just the animals in the region of the world where the humans existed.
The scriptures often use the phrase "the whole earth" in a way that means everything in a wide area. For example, in Genesis 41 the scriptures say that:
And the famine was over all the face of the earth: and Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.
Clearly the famine was limited to the regions of the middle east and Africa, but again, this is how the ancient Hebrews used idiomatic language.
In much the same way the flood waters could have affected everything on the side of the planet that Noah was on, and since it is likely that Noah lived tens of thousands of years ago (certainly before the Chinese civilization started since we have Chinese legends that are clearly inspired by Genesis) it is very feasible that all of humanity lived on that side of the planet at the time of the flood.
I don't know how much more clearly I can state this. Feel free to disagree with me if you want to but there isn't any scientific evidence you can come up with that would disprove this hypothesis.
But above you said there was "little or no physical evidence of the Tunguska event". You're contradicting yourself again.
And here's yet another example of you being immature, which is why you are quickly on your way to being ignored. When I said there was "little or no physical evidence" I was clearly talking about giant craters or things that a meteor would leave behind which would last for thousands of years. Of course there is a flattened forest, etc.
Please don't waste any more of my time with these kinds of remarks. I know you're not this stupid.
YES YOU DID. Here are your exact words from above
"We have plenty of evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the human race, Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam."
And here is an example of you reading my remarks in the least charitable way. Of course I don't think that Mitochondrial Eve is evidence of a population bottleneck at least in terms of the great flood, since I believe that Mitochondrial Eve is the REAL Eve mentioned in first chapters of Genesis and Y-Chromosomal Adam (i.e. Noah) wouldn't have lived until thousands of years later.
When I originally brought this up my point was that Y-Chromosomal Adam (Noah) lived much later than Mitochondrial Eve, so several thousand years after the maternal ancestor of humanity we experienced a population bottleneck where we had a common male ancestor (Noah).
Is there any scientific field you're *not* completely ignorant of we can discuss?
Fair warning - I've responded to this last message but I'm not going to waste any more time paying attention to your inane ramblings unless the quality of your posts starts to improve (or at least the quality of your arguments). You are clearly here solely to cajole and antogonize and it's pretty clear that you are not interested in any kind of meaningful discussion of the issues.
Ritchie,
DeleteHumans need fresh water to live. And many ancient cultures lived on rivers and in coastal areas. Is it really a big surprise that many cultures have myths surrounding flooding?
I've gone over this ad nauseum with Thorton. These are not simply a collection of diverse stories with random elements and a flood event. Many of these stories are eerily similar to one another. For example, the Chinese have a legend that goes:
The Chinese classic called the Hihking tells about "the family of Fuhi," that was saved from a great flood. This ancient story tells that the entire land was flooded; the mountains and everything, however one family survived in a boat. The Chinese consider this man the father of their civilization. This record indicates that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters were the only people that escaped the great flood. It is claimed, that he and his family were the only people alive on earth, and repopulated the world.
The Aztecs have a similar legend:
Aztec- A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.
(both of these are from: http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html )
I could copy and paste these all day long but I think you get the point. These are not just random flood stories, they have a common thread and indicate that all of these diverse cultures had a common background and a common historical experience.
first-hand evidence for Julius Caesar - coins and coins struck in his image, documents written by people who actually met him, letters written by his own hand, exactly the sort of things Jesus is conspicuously without.
Quite honestly Ritchie, if you want to insist that Jesus Christ was a mythological figure, there really is no point in us having a discussion.
That is a bizarre position that is way outside the mainstream of historical research that no credible scholar supports. Even respected scholars who detest Christianity and spend their lives trying to discredit it like Bart Ehrman concede that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure.
Your stance indicates that your opinions are greatly colored by a huge anti-Christian bias to the point of making you incapable of any type of meaningful dialogue. It's basically like trying to have a historical discussion about world war 2 with a holocaust denier.
If you're not willing to even concede this, then there really isn't any point in me wasting time discussing anything else with you.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (and I hope that I am) but the whole "Jesus was a mythological figure" position really kind of exposes you as an extreme atheist who is not only hugely ignorant but even worse, willfully blind.
wgbutler -
DeleteThese are not simply a collection of diverse stories with random elements and a flood event. Many of these stories are eerily similar to one another.
Or are you just picking flood stories which are particularly similar to each other?
Besides, exactly what kind of connection are you suggesting existed between the Israelites and the ancient Atzecs?
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (and I hope that I am) but the whole "Jesus was a mythological figure" position really kind of exposes you as an extreme atheist who is not only hugely ignorant but even worse, willfully blind.
I would certainly hope none of that is the case. I hope I am always willing to at least consider contrary evidence when presented. But that is not what you are giving me.
You told me there is a lot of very strong evidence for a historical Jesus. That's quite a claim since, to my knowledge, it is completely false. Now that may just be my ignorance, and if it is, then I would genuinely appreciate being corrected on the matter.
But all you are doing is insisting that this amazingly strong evidence really does exist, telling me how many people (and even the great Bart Ehrman) have been swayed by it, and that I am ridiculous for not believing it. This is no way to change my mind. To do that, all you need to do is tell me what this ample and compelling evidence IS.
Ritchie,
DeleteBesides, exactly what kind of connection are you suggesting existed between the Israelites and the ancient Atzecs?
They would each have descended from Noah and his three sons. When they branched off, they would have taken their common history with them which would explain the similarity in their flood legends.
This is no way to change my mind. To do that, all you need to do is tell me what this ample and compelling evidence IS.
OK, but keep in mind that I am not a historian so there are others out there who could probably give you better arguments. Here is some of the evidence for the historical Jesus.
1) The gospel accounts.
2) The Pauline epistles.
3) The writings of Josephus, specifically the Antiquities of the Jews where he mentions Jesus personally and also mentions James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ". The James reference is widely regarded by a majority of scholars as being authentic.
4) The creeds of the early church.
5) The writing of Tacitus about a great persecution of Christians by Nero in the early 100s. He wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
6)The writings of Pliny the Younger concerning how to deal with Christians and force them to deconvert.
7) The fast spread of Christianity, despite widespread persecution and every incentive in the world to not become a Christian.
8) The writings of Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus.
9) Jewish records, for example Rabbi Akiba wrote One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover
10) The Acts of the Apostles, widely regarded as being very historically accurate and validated by many archeological findings.
11) The reference to the works of Thallus by Julius Africanus, who is apparently describing the supernatural events that took place during the crucifixion:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun
I'm going to stop here, but there's a ton more that is just a google search away.
The position that Jesus was a mythological figure is a fringe position that the vast majority of historians reject. These are people who dedicate their entire lives to studying this stuff. And many of them are highly motivated to find inconsistencies or flaws in the Christian narrative.
What kind of evidence would it take to convince you? Keep in mind that for the first 3 or 4 centuries this was an illegal religion and its adherents were widely persecuted and often put to death. Do you really expect to find coins with Christ's picture from the first century?
Ritchie,
DeleteI should have also mentioned Lucian. A Greek Satirist who lived in the second century. He apparently made a living by mocking Christians. Think of him as sort of an ancient Bill Maher. He wrote:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.
wgbutler777 said...
DeleteI think its pretty clear what I was saying. The flood was geographically local but universal in the sense that all of the humans except for Noah and his family were wiped out. I don't think all the animals were wiped out, just the animals in the region of the world where the humans existed.
That's not what the Bible says:
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
So once again you're directly contradicting the Bible. BTW, if the Flood was local and God knew he wasn't killing all the animals, then why did Noah have to gather mating pairs of every kind to take on the Ark?
That's the problem when you make up this crap on the fly - you talk yourself into a corner with every layer of nonsense you add.
In much the same way the flood waters could have affected everything on the side of the planet that Noah was on, and since it is likely that Noah lived tens of thousands of years ago (certainly before the Chinese civilization started since we have Chinese legends that are clearly inspired by Genesis) it is very feasible that all of humanity lived on that side of the planet at the time of the flood.
Completely unsupported assertion contradicted by all the available archaeological evidence.
And here's yet another example of you being immature, which is why you are quickly on your way to being ignored. When I said there was "little or no physical evidence" I was clearly talking about giant craters or things that a meteor would leave behind which would last for thousands of years. Of course there is a flattened forest, etc.
LOL! So now it's *my* fault for not reading your mind and instead listened to what you wrote, not what you meant. You Creationists are too funny sometimes!
And here is an example of you reading my remarks in the least charitable way. Of course I don't think that Mitochondrial Eve is evidence of a population bottleneck at least in terms of the great flood, since I believe that Mitochondrial Eve is the REAL Eve mentioned in first chapters of Genesis and Y-Chromosomal Adam (i.e. Noah) wouldn't have lived until thousands of years later.
I'll only say this once more. The evidence indicates that there existed at one time a woman who is related maternally through her descendents to all humans alive today. IT DOESN'T INDICATE SHE WAS THE ONLY WOMAN ALIVE AT THAT TIME.
If you're too stupid or too lazy to read the reference I provided or research it yourself you can pound sand.
When I originally brought this up my point was that Y-Chromosomal Adam (Noah) lived much later than Mitochondrial Eve, so several thousand years after the maternal ancestor of humanity we experienced a population bottleneck where we had a common male ancestor (Noah).
THAT'S NOT WHAT THE GENETIC EVIDENCE FOR Y-CHROMOSOME ADAM SHOWS. It has nothing to do with a bottleneck, only a common male ancestor. Damn but you're a dense one.
You grabbed hold of a few scientific terms you heard in the popular press and have ZERO understanding of what they mean or represent. You then spun ignorance and misunderstanding into a complete fantasy narrative that has ZERO scientific support and ZERO connection to reality.
You are clearly here solely to cajole and antogonize and it's pretty clear that you are not interested in any kind of meaningful discussion of the issues.
Frankly, you've shown me you're far too ignorant to have any sort of meaningful scientific discussion on any topic concerning evolutionary biology. You come in here spouting the most inane nonsense then get ticked when someone demonstrated just how stupid your claims are. Tough luck buddy. If you want sycophantic agreement stick to your censored Creationist boards like UD.
wgbutler777 said...
DeleteI've gone over this ad nauseum with Thorton.
You mean you've made unsupported assertions ad nauseum, but we understand. To you that 'sciency' evidence stuff is unnecessary if you just believe.
These are not simply a collection of diverse stories with random elements and a flood event.
Actually yes, they are. The water is pretty much the only thing they all have in common.
Many of these stories are eerily similar to one another. For example, the Chinese have a legend that goes:
For every one you can name that is 'close' to the Noah's account I can provide five that are dramatically different.
Here is a big list of Flood stories from all over the globe. I invite those interested to read them for themselves.
Flood Stories from Around the World
I'll ask again - if these all supposedly came from the four "eyewitness" couples on the Ark, why do we see so many vast differences in the details?
wgbutler -
DeleteThey would each have descended from Noah and his three sons. When they branched off, they would have taken their common history with them which would explain the similarity in their flood legends.
We do have a fairly comprehensive picture of how humans colonised the world from genetic and archaeological evidence, and it shows the native Americans arrived in the continent rought 25,000 years ago, from Asia. The idea of the Middle East being a point of origin for the spread of humanity is indeed contradicted by the evidence. Unless you are suggesting Noah actally lived in sub-Saharan East Africa 85,000 years ago...?
OK, but keep in mind that I am not a historian so there are others out there who could probably give you better arguments.
Granted, though I've never seen anyone come up with anything more compelling than what you have, in fact, presented...
1) The gospel accounts.
We have several problems here. For one thing, they are anonymous and don't even claim to be first-hand, eyewitness accounts. They were attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, centuries later. And if they (or any of the disciples) really were the authors, then why do they talk about the disciples in the third person?
Moreover, there is the synoptic problem. The degree of parallel shows at least 3, (and probably the fourth too) of the gospels are interdependent. These are not independent accounts which happen to agree - they were written using each other as source material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels
There is also the point that we don't know exactly when they were written. Though we have earlier references to writing of the apostles, the latest-possible date set for the gospels is 180 AD, from a mention by Irenaeus, who is the first to give a reliable mention of the canon gospels by name and describe them in a way we would recognise them, though it doesn't say how much earlier they were written. This is a surprisingly late date.
Finally, since it is the gospels which we are trying to verify, we cannot really use them as authoratative sources of evidence for themselves.
2) The Pauline epistles.
Paul doesn't even claim to have met Jesus himself. By his own account, he only saw a vision of Jesus after he had been executed. He was not an eye-witness to Jesus, and can only, at best, be giving us second-hand information.
But besides that, there is the startling fact that Paul's epistles actually say rather little about the details of Jesus' life which we can corroborate. He does not add details to the gospel account which help us verify it. What we have, basically, are the letters of a self-confessed preacher preaching his faith, who never met the man he is preaching about. There's little here which can act as an objective historical account.
3) The writings of Josephus, specifically the Antiquities of the Jews where he mentions Jesus personally and also mentions James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ". The James reference is widely regarded by a majority of scholars as being authentic.
Yes, Josephus always gets mentioned because his alleged references are the earliest non-Biblical references. And this is an important point. He was born 37 AD, and wrote the passages in question in Antiquites around 90-96. And yet, his is the EARLIEST non-Biblical historical reference we have for a real Jesus. How can that be? How can it be that no-one who saw Jesus and his miracles through his life wrote anything down about him?
Be that as it may, it is reasonably likely that both mentions of Jesus by Josephus were later Christian interlopations. Contrary to your claim, it is far from a consensus among scholars. Wiki is pretty thorough on the debate on the authenticity of these passages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
wgbutler (cont)
Delete4) The creeds of the early church.
I don't see how this could stand as reliable, historical evidence. The problem here is impertiality. Creeds are statements of belief. How could they possibly be used as historical evidence?
5) The writing of Tacitus about a great persecution of Christians by Nero in the early 100s.
Again, it was written nearly a century after Jesus's alleged crucifixion (around 115 AD). So it is pertinent to ask where Tacitus is getting his information from. The idea that he is using Roman records is highly unlikely, since there is no evidence they kept records of every crucifixion in every backwater province of the Empire. The answer is most likely a contemporary Christian source. What reason would he have had to doubt the version he gave in the passage you cited?
6)The writings of Pliny the Younger concerning how to deal with Christians and force them to deconvert.
Mentions nothing about a real Jesus. Only the existence of Christians. I am not denying they existed...
7) The fast spread of Christianity, despite widespread persecution and every incentive in the world to not become a Christian.
Is no evidence at all. It is perfectly possible for believe to believe a lie. A claim is not made made true by the number of people who believe it nor the speed with which is spreads.
8) The writings of Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus.
Makes only one reference to Jews in Rome causing trouble at the instigation of a man called 'Chrestus'. Can be taken as a misspelling of 'Christus', but was actually a Roman name in its own right. How that can be taken for corroborative evidence I don't know. Why does he say 'Jews' and not 'Christians' when he plainly knows the difference? And why imagine this 'Chrestus' was a misspelt 'Christus'?
Another reference says Christians were punished following the fires in Rome. But again, this says nothing at all about a historical Jesus.
9) Jewish records, for example Rabbi Akiba wrote:
The Jewish Talmud contradicts the Christian version of events in several places. This passage says he was hanged, not crucified. Others say he was stoned. Some say he died at Lydda, and not by Romans, but by the Jews. Smoe say he was the son of a Roman soldier, others that h lived in what we must reckon to be 100 BC, or even later.
Added to which, this is not an objective historical record, but a religious polemic (and one written in about 200 AD at that). It is no more reliable simply because it is Jewish rather than Christian.