Thursday, June 30, 2011

New Cambrian Arthropod Vision System: No More Shudders

Years ago physicist Riccardo Levi-Setti became fascinated with trilobites. He wrote a book about them and at one point called their 500 million year old eyes “an all-time feat of function optimization.” They were, as evolutionists admitted, “an impressive feat of early evolution.” But now a new finding shows evolution to be even more impressive.

Charles Darwin considered the eye to be an “organ of extreme perfection.” Even after writing Origins he confessed it gave him a cold shudder. He needed to focus on his theory’s fine gradations to give himself comfort. But one hundred and thirty four years later, in 1994, evolutionists laid the problem to rest. The evolution of the eye was finally understood. It turned out such evolution was no big deal after all. In fact the eye could rather easily evolve.

The only catch to the conclusion was that it was made by evolutionists. Remember that evolutionists insist evolution must be a fact for religious reasons. As such their objectivity is sometimes wanting, as in this case. With evolution taken as a fact, whether or not vision systems evolved was no longer in question—they did. The only question was how they have evolved. The 1994 paper explained that although Darwin “anticipated that the eye would become a favorite target for criticism,” the problem “has now almost become a historical curiosity” and “the question is now one of process rate rather than one of principle.” The evolutionists estimated this rate by first assuming that the eye indeed evolved. They wrote:

The evolution of complex structures, however, involves modifications of a large number of separate quantitative characters, and in addition there may be discrete innovations and an unknown number of hidden but necessary phenotypic changes. These complications seem effectively to prevent evolution rate estimates for entire organs and other complex structures. An eye is unique in this respect because the structures necessary for image formation, although there may be several, are all typically quantitative in their nature, and can be treated as local modifications of pre-existing tissues. Taking a patch of pigmented light-sensitive epithelium as the starting point, we avoid the more inaccessible problem of photoreceptor cell evolution. Thus, if the objective is limited to finding the number of generations required for the evolution of an eye’s optical geometry, then the problem becomes solvable.

The problem becomes solvable? The evolutionists skipped the entire evolution of cellular signal transduction and the vision cascade. That would be like saying you have showed how motorcycles evolved although you took the engine, drive train and wheels as your starting point.

The evolutionists then skipped all of the major problems that arise after you have a signal transduction system in place, such as the incredible post processing system and the creation of the machinery to construct the vision system. The problem they ended up solving is sometimes affectionately referred to as a “cartoon” version of the real world problem.

The research, if you can call it that, did not serve as evidence for evolution. Yet the paper became a favorite reference for evolutionists wanting to suppress scientific skepticism of evolution. Eye evolution, they insisted, was now known to be straightforward. Here, for instance, is how our tax dollars are used by PBS to promote this abuse of science:

Zoologist Dan-Erik Nilsson demonstrates how the complex human eye could have evolved through natural selection acting on small variations. Starting with a simple patch of light sensitive cells, Nilsson’s model “evolves” until a clear image is produced.

With such mythology now internalized in evolutionary lore, evolutionists will believe practically anything, including a new finding of even greater evolutionary wonders. The new paper reports on complex vision in early arthropods long predating most of the trilobites. But in order to properly “educate” the reader and prepare them for the findings, the paper begins with, yes, a reference to that 1994 Nilsson paper:

Despite the status of the eye as an “organ of extreme perfection,” theory suggests that complex eyes can evolve very rapidly. … Here we report exceptionally preserved fossil eyes from the Early Cambrian (~515 million years ago) Emu Bay Shale of South Australia, revealing that some of the earliest arthropods possessed highly advanced compound eyes, each with over 3,000 large ommatidial lenses and a specialized “bright zone.” … The eyes are more complex than those known from contemporaneous trilobites and are as advanced as those of many living forms. They provide further evidence that the Cambrian explosion involved rapid innovation in fine-scale anatomy as well as gross morphology, and are consistent with the concept that the development of advanced vision helped to drive this great evolutionary event.

With the mythological framework properly in place, the findings could then safely be presented as confirmations of evolution. As the journal’s editor added:

Charles Darwin thought that the eye, which he called an “organ of extreme perfection,” was a serious challenge to evolutionary theory — but he was mistaken. Theory predicts that eyes can evolve with great speed, and now there is support for this prediction from the fossil record.

Support for this prediction? You’ve got to be kidding. A cartoon version of reality, taking the myth of evolution as true, is considered a “prediction” and amazing early complexity in the fossils then becomes a “support for this prediction”?

What the new fossils revealed is an early Cambrian, highly advanced vision system more elaborate than any so far discovered. Its compound eyes have more then 3,000 lenses optimally arranged in the densest and most efficient packing pattern. As the paper explains:

The extremely regular arrangement of lenses seen here exceeds even that in certain modern taxa, such as the horseshoe crab Limulus, in which up to one-third of lenses deviate from hexagonal packing.

All of this is presented to the reader as merely another demonstration of how fantastic designs just happen spontaneously to arise:

The new fossils reveal that some of the earliest arthropods had already acquired visual systems similar to those of living forms, underscoring the speed and magnitude of the evolutionary innovation that occurred during the Cambrian explosion.

Ho-hum, yet more evolutionary innovation. For evolutionists it is just another day in the office. As PZ Myers explains, we already knew that complex animals appear rapidly. After all, that is why they call it the “Cambrian explosion.” Evolutionists have written “whole books on the subject.”

Myers follows this circular reasoning with yet more question begging:

The sudden appearance of complexity is no surprise, either. We know that the fundamental mechanisms of eye function evolved long before the Cambrian, from the molecular evidence;

Of course there is no “molecular evidence” that gives us such knowledge. But if you assume evolution is true to begin with, as do evolutionists who analyze the molecular patterns, then Myers’ fictional, question begging, world makes sense.

Myers follows these circular arguments with a more subtle type of fallacy. He explains that these particular findings are no big deal because both this finding and the trilobite vision systems require cellular signal transduction, development machines and so forth:

It is also the case that the measure of complexity here is determined by a simple meristic trait, the number of ommatidia. This is not radical. The hard part in the evolution of the compound eye was the development of the signal transduction mechanism, followed by the developmental rules that governed the formation of a regular, repeating structure of the eye. The number of ommatidia is a reflection of the degree of commitment of tissues in the head to eye formation, and is a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one.

Setting aside the usual evolutionary speculation about how easily designs evolve, the problem here is that the cellular signal transduction, development machines and so forth are themselves problems for evolution. Indeed, even the simplest of light detection systems sport such incredible designs for which evolution has no explanation beyond vague speculation.

Next Myers is back to question-begging. In typical fashion he attempts to shore up the evolution position with the usual reference to the mythical 1994 Nilsson paper:

And finally, there’s nothing in the data from this paper that implies sudden origins; there can’t be. If it takes a few hundred thousand years for a complex eye to evolve from a simple light sensing organ, there is no way to determine that one sample of a set of fossils was the product of millions of years of evolution, or one day of magical creation.

Next is the fallacy of credulity. If you present an evolutionist with the scientific failures of his theory, he will accuse you of basing your skepticism on your own failure to imagine a solution. As Myers puts it:

It’s a logical error and a failure of the imagination to assume that these descriptions are of a population that spontaneously emerged nearly-instantaneously.

Failure of the imagination? Indeed, we just need to do more imagining, that’s the problem.

Finally Myers reiterates the flawed Darwinian argument that whatever abruptness you see in the fossil record is, after all, merely a consequence of all those gaps in the fossils:

Darwin himself explained in great detail how one should not expect fine-grained fossil series, due to the imperfection of the geological record.

When in doubt, doubt the data. Paleontologists agree that the fossil record reveals abrupt appearances, but when convenient evolutionists can always protect their theory with those gaps in the fossil record.

Evolutionary thinking is remarkable. I am reminded of John Earman’s remarks about Hume’s arguments. For it is astonishing how well evolution is treated, given how completely the confection collapses under a little probing. And yet evolutionists are supremely confident they are right.

Evolutionists such as Myers are very book smart, but the wisdom and common sense is lacking. The evolutionist’s confidence is exceeded only by the absurdity of his theory. Religion drives science and it matters.

205 comments:

  1. You're so right. Silly scientists. Can't they see it's far more rational to just conclude that a magic man in the sky clicked his fingers and everything popped into existence with a puff of magic.
    Ironclad science, that.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Exactly. It's much more rational to believe that the Universe magicked itself into existence and then everything else just spontaneously arose all by itself. Lucky us.

    See, we have stupid caricatures, too.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Cornelius, one thing is amazingly complex design, another is what one might call "group evolution". Features which give an evolutionary advantage for a group of animals. Such as the penguins. They go as a group a long distance where the fathers will stand through winter carrying the eggs. They keep warm by standing hurdled together all winter. The question is what possible advantage did the first penguin who decided to go the long distance all by himself get? Or did they all get the same idea simultaneously? What is the answer of biology?

    ReplyDelete
  4. e52...

    So let's put our charicatures to one side and see what remains, shall we?

    Well we are left to investigate the mysteries of life. The scientific method remains the one truly reliable way of discovering truths about the world around us. Unless of course you can suggest another...?

    And the scientific method leaves no room for miracles.

    Which leaves the Creationist/ID premise stuck at the starting blocks, basically.

    The difference between our charicatures is that science does not really infer 'magic'. ID does.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Science, real science (so called because it can only be found in books and movies) doesn't infer magic. Evolutionism does.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Could any of you IDCers please provide the 'intelligent design' explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record, including the Cambrian and Precambrian fossils? I'd sure appreciate it. I've only been asking that same question for a decade now and never gotten even a single ID explanation.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Ritchie:

    When people talk about the Scientific Method, I get a little confused because I saw different definitions of the Scientific Method in different textbooks.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I commented earlier: vision cascade seems to work like a nano-scale tuned photon transducer-amplifier.

    I want one of those !!!

    Oh, wait – I have two already.

    Photon transducer-amplifier is just a beginning, what about processing that happens after raw data is sent via optic nerve into the brain.
    Hopefully in the next post.

    ReplyDelete
  9. nat -

    I wasn't using the term in a particularly strict sense. Just the general 'process of experimenting, hypothesis-testing and deductive reasoning'.

    When you perform an experiment, you must assume miracles don't happen. Imagine I drop a ball to see what happens. It falls. Interesting. The experiment can be repeated, and the speed, acceleration and properties of the ball can all be measured and tinkered with to find the relevant variables. But I must believe that it was a natural force which pulled the ball down rather than a miracle or magic.

    Yes this is an assumption, but one all science makes.

    'Here is a naturalistic theory which is backed up by a vast deal of evidence, though there are a few interesting odds and ends to explore' invokes no magic.

    'The gaps in our knowledge are filled by a magic man in the sky who can suspend the laws of nature and make impossible things happen' does.

    ReplyDelete
  10. natschuster said...

    When people talk about the Scientific Method, I get a little confused because I saw different definitions of the Scientific Method in different textbooks


    Why don't you list a few of these definitions you say you read and explain why you think they are fundamentally different.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Discussion of the Cambrian Explosion always exposes the non-scientific nature of evolutionists. It illustrates that they are not open to alternatives, but will go to extraordinary lengths to exaggerate and even lie about the data. At least Darwin was honest about the challenge. His disciples are in denial.

    ReplyDelete
  12. @e52, "The scientific method remains the one truly reliable way of discovering truths about the world around us. ... And the scientific method leaves no room for miracles."

    This is a contradiction... how can a way of discovering truth be reliable if it leaves no room for a vast swath of possibilities? If it cannot detect miracles, it cannot demonstrate their absence either.

    "Unless of course you can suggest another...?" A scientific method need not be closed to miracles, and certainly not to detection of purpose and design. The other obvious method you are omitting is looking at eye-witness accounts of the origins of life.

    "Which leaves the Creationist/ID premise stuck at the starting blocks, basically."

    Not at all... the creationist has revelation (eye-witness accounts of origins), and the ID theorist looks for empirical evidence of purpose and design in the natural world.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Tedford the idiot said...

    Discussion of the Cambrian Explosion always exposes the non-scientific nature of evolutionists. It illustrates that they are not open to alternatives, but will go to extraordinary lengths to exaggerate and even lie about the data.


    Well Tedford, since no one in your camp has the nads to even offer an alternative, let alone defend one, you don't have much of a point.

    Feel free to provide the 'intelligent design' explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record, including the Cambrian and Precambrian fossils. Anytime Tedford.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Lars - I believe from the quotes, your questions were actually directed at me...?

    "how can a way of discovering truth be reliable if it leaves no room for a vast swath of possibilities?"

    The salient point is that it filters out fact from error. It is a tool to figure out what is true and what is not. The most powerful and reliable one we possess. Take a look around you - the modern world is built on science, with all the technology, design and medical innovations we have made. Science WORKS.

    And yet it is indeed all built on the assumption that miracles do not happen. If that assumption is flawed then it is extremely odd that science is so often right, yet based on a flawed premise.

    "A scientific method need not be closed to miracles, and certainly not to detection of purpose and design."

    How would a scientific method work which did allow for miracles?

    Imagine I am investigating this force which pulls my released ball (man that sounds filthy) downwards. How can I determine whether it falls because of a genuine natural force, or whether this is a miracle?

    "The other obvious method you are omitting is looking at eye-witness accounts of the origins of life."

    An eye-witness to the origin of life? Who is this eye-witness to the origin of life? If what they were witnessing was the origin of life, then they must, by definition, not be alive.

    "the creationist has revelation (eye-witness accounts of origins),"

    Well that's an enormous leap of faith right there. I assume you are talking about the Bible? First you need to prove it is indeed an eye-witness account. At no point does any book of the Bible even claim to be written by God, or to be a verbatim dictation, as the Koran is claimed to be. Next, you must put this claim to the test. How do you differentiate a GENUINE eye-witness account of creation from a work of fiction which merely fraudilently claims to be such?

    More to the point, revelation as a source of information is not in the least scientific. It is inaccurate, unproductive and unreliable. While science can boast all the technological and medical advances of the modern age, what has revelation ever actually given us? What inventions has it brought about? What diseases has it eradicated? What achievements can we claim because of it?

    "...and the ID theorist looks for empirical evidence of purpose and design in the natural world."

    Yes. How's that going? What evidence IS there of purpose and design in the natural world?

    I imagine you'll find, when you boil it down, there isn't any. Just a few mysteries (and, more often than not, plain misunderstood IMAGINED mysteries), followed by 'God must have done it. How else did it happen?' This is pure God of the Gpas logic, and it holds about as much water as it's name implies.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Ritchie said...
    "But I must believe that it was a natural force which pulled the ball down rather than a miracle or magic"

    No Ritchie, in science you do not have to believe or not believe in nothing, you have to observe and describe.

    Yes this is an assumption, but one all science makes.

    Yes science always make assumption and then his theories are truth as far as the assumptions stands. So any theory is never a fact is an explanation gived the assumptions.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Neal -

    I've no idea what about the Cambrian Explosion you imagine is at all problematic for the Theory of Evolution. But if you believe you have an alternative which explains the evidence just as well or even better, then please let's hear it.

    And I give you fair warning: if there's a whiff of 'Here's a mystery. It must have been God; how else could it possibly have happened?' then you'll impress no-one.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Blas -

    "No Ritchie, in science you do not have to believe or not believe in nothing, you have to observe and describe."

    Wrong. You absolutely do have to be able to believe what you are observing and describing are the products of natural forces at work. Otherwise your experiments count for nothing at all.

    Go back to my dropping a ball experiment. If I allow for miracles, then my experiments are useless. I could be observing natural phenomena - I could be observing a miracle (ie, a violation of natural forces). I therefore am unable to deduce anything. Do released balls fall down? Well the one I just observed did. But that could have been a miracle. In my experiments heavy balls fall faster than lighter balls. What can I deduce from that? If I allow for miracles, nothing. I cannot describe the force which pulls things down, or any of its properties, because any or all of my data could be contaminated with miracles, which would surely give me false information.

    "Yes science always make assumption and then his theories are truth as far as the assumptions stands. So any theory is never a fact is an explanation gived the assumptions."

    True, a theory is only solid for as long at the starting assumptions are valid. But, for one thing, you have not shown that this assumption is invalid. You have not shown, in short, that miracles occur. And until such a time, then we have to continue assuming they do not.

    But for another thing, this assumption underpins not only the theory of evolution, but every theory in science! Every theory in biology, chemistry and physics was drawn up and verified on the assumption that miracles do not occur. So the theory of evolution does indeed behave exactly as every other scientific theory behaves. It is a scientific theory. If you have a problem with the assumption that miracles do not occur, then you have a problem with the WHOLE of science. Not just whichever theory you want to single out and cast doubt on because it contradicts whatever unsubstanciated religious dogma you want to cling to.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Ritchie said: "Wrong. You absolutely do have to be able to believe what you are observing and describing are the products of natural forces at work. Otherwise your experiments count for nothing at all."

    Science is not based on believes. You assume what are you observing are the products of natural forces.

    "True, a theory is only solid for as long at the starting assumptions are valid. But, for one thing, you have not shown that this assumption is invalid. You have not shown, in short, that miracles occur. And until such a time, then we have to continue assuming they do not."

    And as science can´t prove that miracles do not occur God remains outside the scope of science, and science is true assuming miracle do not happen and within the condition and assumption of the observations.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Ritchie said, "I've no idea what about the Cambrian Explosion you imagine is at all problematic for the Theory of Evolution."

    ---

    Start with the problem Charles Darwin had with it.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Tedford the idiot said...

    Ritchie said, "I've no idea what about the Cambrian Explosion you imagine is at all problematic for the Theory of Evolution."

    ---

    Start with the problem Charles Darwin had with it.


    Hey idiot, has science progressed any and/or learned anything new since Darwin's time?

    Still waiting for you to provide the 'intelligent design' explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record, including the Cambrian and Precambrian fossils. Anytime Tedford.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Blas -

    "Science is not based on believes. You assume what are you observing are the products of natural forces."

    While it is true that we should assume as little as possible, assuming that 'miracles do not happen' is an entirely necessary assumption for performing science.

    "And as science can´t prove that miracles do not occur God remains outside the scope of science, and science is true assuming miracle do not happen and within the condition and assumption of the observations."

    That is absolutely true!! Well put, and a wonderful demonstration of exactly why ToE IS science, and why Creation Science/ID is not. I could hardly have put it better myself. Bravo.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Neal -

    "Start with the problem Charles Darwin had with it."

    Why would I do that? He lived a century and a half ago. We have made countless discoveries since then. He knew far less about his own theory than we do today.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Ritchie, you're in denial and exaggerating the data. The problem is not any better today.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Here are some examples of different definitions for the Scientific Method:




    "Living Enviroment" by Ratzh and Colvert doesn't mention the Scientific method, but it does discuss scientific inquiry, It says scientific inquiry includes questions, observations and inference, experimentation, collecting and organizing data, repeating experiments, and peer review.

    "Biology, The Study of Life" by Sachraer and Stolzte says that the Scientific method consists of defining the problem, formulating a hypothesis, testing the hypothesis, observing and measuring, analyzing and drawing conclusions, and reporting observations.

    "Biology" by Mills and Levine lalks about science and how scientists work.
    Science involves evidence based on observation, interpreting the evidence, and explaining the evidence.Scientists work by studying the evidence, forming a hypothesis, setting up a controlled experiment, recoding and analyzing the results, drawing conclusions, publishing and repeating the investigation, If a controlled experiment isn't possible, then they substitute field work.

    "Evironmental Science" by Karen Arms says that there are scientific methods.
    That is, there is more then one method. These can include observing, hypothesizing and predicting, experimenting, organizing and interpreting information, using graphs and sharing information, and communicatiing results.

    "Modern Earth Science" by Sager, Rancey, Phillips and Watenpaugh also discusses different scientific methods. They include stating the problem, gathering information, forming a hypothesis, testing the hypothesis by experiment, and stating a conclusion.

    "Earth Science" by Spaulding and Namowitz talks about scientific thinking. This includes observations, gathering evidence, formulating a hypothesis, skeptical questioning, analyzing what is known, and using math and technology. The scientific methods of inquiry involve collecting data, analyzing the data, testing the hypothesis, and peer review in scientific journals.

    "Holt Science and Technology: Earth Science" says that scientific methods do not have a set procedure, but they can include some or all of the following, asking a question, forming a hypothesis, testing by controlled experiment, making observations, keeping records, analyzing results, drawing conclusions, and communicating results.


    I tried to be as accurate as possible. I had to condense entire chapters into paragraphs.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Ritchie:"That is absolutely true!! Well put, and a wonderful demonstration of exactly why ToE IS science, and why Creation Science/ID is not. I could hardly have put it better myself. Bravo."

    I´m glad you agree, but then you have to agree that evolution it is not, and will not be a fact. It is only a scientific theory.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Neal -

    I have not presented any data. So how can I be exaggerating it?

    The 'problem' is better because we have a lot more data to go on. 150 years worth, give or take.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Blas -

    "I´m glad you agree, but then you have to agree that evolution it is not, and will not be a fact. It is only a scientific theory."

    I think you are confused. The Theory of Evolution via Natural Selection is indeed, 'only' a theory. But theories and facts are different things.

    There is a very common misconception that theories are somehow proved and then become facts. This is a total misunderstanding of how science works.

    When you first have an idea about how something MIGHT work, it is a hypothesis. When this is tested and verified, it becomes a theory. A theory is, by definition, a hypothesis backed up with supporting evidence. Theories are never 'upgraded'. They remain theories no matter how much supporting evidence you acquire and no matter how long it stands.

    A fact is a single observable piece of data. Hypothesis and theories are created to explain facts. They don't ever become facts.

    The Theory of Gravity is 'only' a theory. It could conceivably be disproved, but will never be a fact. Germ Theory is 'only' a theory. It could conceivably be disproved, but it will never be a fact.

    It is, for example, a fact that life on Earth has changed. The animal species alive today are not the same as the animal species alive on the Earth 500 million years ago. Life has evolved (that is, it has changed). The question is how.

    Charles Darwin put forward a theory of how life has changed. He called it The Theory of Evolution via Natural Selection. Scientifically speaking it is a theory and will never be a fact.

    Notice, by contrast, ID and Creation Science are not 'even' theories. They are unfalsifiable, make no predictions and are unscientific. Being 'only' a theory is not a bad thing. And it does not change the fact that ToE is the ONLY workable, scientific theory which explains so much of life on Earth, and as such, is infinitely to be preferred over ID or Creation Science.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Ritchie, you're exaggerating the "countless discoveries" that you believe diminish the Cambrian fossils that Darwin had problems with. The trend in the last 150 years has been:

    1. A lessening of the Cambrian explosion timeframe.

    2. An increasingly complete picture of precambrian fossils... which don't show transitionals.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Ritchie:"It is, for example, a fact that life on Earth has changed. The animal species alive today are not the same as the animal species alive on the Earth 500 million years ago. Life has evolved (that is, it has changed)"

    I agree with your description of science, but the upper paragraphe is wrong, that are not facts are hipotesis or teories based on assumptions. Facts are fossils we have, the age of that fossils are assumptions based on facts. We assume life changed because we extrapolate small changes we observe now, but we do not have observtion of the change evolution claims, and we have fossils supposed very old identicals to living forms. So facts is many live forms do not change over the time.

    "And it does not change the fact that ToE is the ONLY workable, scientific theory which explains so much of life on Earth, and as such, is infinitely to be preferred over ID or Creation Science."

    The hype of ToE as usual. The value of a thoery is his capacity of make predictions. Can predict something the ToE?

    And Creationism and ID are not the only alternatives to the ToE, one of the links of this blogs is John Davidson blog. He has another vision of evolution. Also this guy
    http://designmatrix.wordpress.com/

    has an alternative vision of evolution, and there are/was many alterntives.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Discussion about miracles and science is beside the point. Miracles are by definition outside science which is about how things happen normally; miracles are by definition abnormal.

    The scientific method is about testing hypotheses; it is applicable to what happens now. But origins is about what happened in the past. Science cannot say anything about creation because science only starts after creation is finished. Those who assume naturalism as an axiom merely substitute a hypothetical big bang -- in which the current laws of nature are not yet applicable -- for the Creator. Creation is not repeatable on either explanation, so the scientific method cannot apply. Naturalistic scientists claim that science excludes supernatural agents by definition; the problem is then one of your definition! Merely declaring that science does not allow for a supernatural creator does not stop Him existing (nor does it stop Him holding you responsible for your denial of his creating). Jesus rose from the dead. If you declare it is not so because science does not allow for such events, you are letting your investigative system substitute for thought. It is a question that science cannot handle; it is instead a historical question. Nobody supposes that the dead are habitually resurrected; when it happens, science cannot say anything about it because it is not repeatable.

    ReplyDelete
  31. "It is, for example, a fact that life on Earth has changed. The animal species alive today are not the same as the animal species alive on the Earth 500 million years ago. Life has evolved (that is, it has changed). The question is how."

    It is not a fact; it is an interpretation of evidence, based on false presuppositions. Since the world was recently created, there was no 500 million years ago, so nothing existed then.

    Evolutionists continue to invent stories about how this or that might have evolved. All this is built on the unquestioned assumption of the fact of evolution and of a huge length of time for it to operate in. The contrary evidence is ignored; for example, the pollen from flowering plants found deep in preCambrian rocks, the unfossilised tissue in dinosaur bones or the unexpected existence of C14 in supposedly ancient diamonds.

    The more we learn about the wonders of microbiology, the less feasible does chemical evolution appear. Something like the ATP motor, which is essential for all life, is simply not going to arise out of undirected chemical events. It is an obvious impossibility. The same goes for a host of highly complex interdependent processes in the cell. Divine creation is a much more reasonable assumption than spontaneous generation.

    ReplyDelete
  32. "... ToE is the ONLY workable, scientific theory which explains so much of life on Earth, and as such, is infinitely to be preferred over ID or Creation Science."

    Only in the warp worldview that prefers "scientific" to "true"...

    ReplyDelete
  33. natschuster said...

    Here are some examples of different definitions for the Scientific Method:


    That's nice. Now explain why you think those definitions somehow have fundamentally different meanings. Seems to me they are just using slightly different wording to convey the exact same meaning.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Great observations of evolutionist, uh hum, "thinking", CH - as always.

    They can't stand seeing the glaring flaws in their own inane theory. So what do they do?

    Well just read above, Ritchie and cie.

    They attack their own childish strawman version of what they believe is YOUR theory.

    What great rebuttals guys. I'm soooooo impressed by such skill! ...
    or rather scratching my head in wide wonder at how incredibly stupid Darwinian fundamentalists can be.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Gary said...

    Great observations of evolutionist, uh hum, "thinking", CH - as always.

    They can't stand seeing the glaring flaws in their own inane theory. So what do they do?

    Well just read above, Ritchie and cie.

    They attack their own childish strawman version of what they believe is YOUR theory.


    Well Gary the yappy little puppy, since Cornelius refuses to tell us what HIS theory is despite being asked hundreds of times, maybe you could stop peeing on the rug long enough to enlighten us.

    Why don't you start with the 'intelligent design' explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record, including the Cambrian and Precambrian fossils.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Now lets look at a nice example of Darwinian fundamentalism.

    The oh so brilliant, Peter Singer, your fave "bioethicist" - of course that's a joke, not science but hey, almost nothing in Darwinian fundamentalism is science anyway.

    Peter Singer from Princeton University. Singer is author of the article Heavy Petting in which the world's leading ethicist defends some kinds of bestiality. Singer has argued that zoosexual relations are not necessarily abusive, and that cross-species relationships could form which were mutually enjoyed. Singer was accompanied by his nervous-appearing Yorkie Terrier named "Doggiestile"

    'We need to expand our concept of love and drive away stereotypes', said Singer, smiling at his pet. 'Natural' relations doesn't necessarily mean same-species relations'. 'Speciesism is the most fundamental prejudice', Singer said, to the cheers of the MWB crowd.

    Reporters asked Singer whether his anxious 8-pound pet was a male or a female.

    'A female, of course', the famed ethicist insisted.

    Asked about whether he supported marriage between pet owners and their same-sex pet, Singer seemed shocked.

    'Not really. Marriage has to mean something. Zoophilia is beautiful, but same-sex zoophilia? That creeps me out, to be honest.'


    Well that's Darwinism for ya. "Gay" is too short a word to describe its inherently sickening logic.

    But of course, if Darwinism really were true, well he's simply taking it to it's logical conclusions.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Gary the yappy little puppy said...

    Now lets look at a nice example of Darwinian fundamentalism.


    LOL! Gary you moron, you're making Tedford look bright. That was not a true story even though you swallowed it hook line and sinker. It was a 100% fictional farce written by Creationist and homophobe Michael Egnor on his blog "Egnorance", crying about NY's new same-sex marriage law being passed.

    Egnorence

    You IDiots don't have two brain cells to rub together between you, do you?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Thorton:

    One book talks about scientifc enquiry, not the Scientific Method. One book talks about scientific thinking. One book says there is no set Scientific Method. So I'm not sure what people mean when they say that the Scientifc Method is the Way to the Truth. Which Scientific Method?

    ReplyDelete
  39. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Thorton said...

    Gary the yappy little puppy said...

    Your sooo original, duh gee wonder where you got that from.

    LOL! Gary you moron, you're making Tedford look bright. That was not a true story

    Really? Well gee you know nothing of Singer then do you? I'll bet you agree with him though. You have no choice. Neither does any other unthinking bozo of a Darwinist.

    In a 2001 review of Midas Dekkers' Dearest Pet: On Bestiality, Singer argues that sexual activities between humans and animals that result in harm to the animal should remain illegal, but that "sex with animals does not always involve cruelty" and that "mutually satisfying activities" of a sexual nature may sometimes occur between humans and animals, and that writer Otto Soyka would condone such activities. The position was countered by fellow philosopher Tom Regan, who writes that the same argument could be used to justify having sex with children. Regan writes that Singer's position is a consequence of his adapting a utilitarian, or consequentialist, approach to animal rights, rather than a strictly rights-based one, and argues that the rights-based position distances itself from non-consensual sex. The Humane Society of the United States takes the position that all sexual molestation of animals by humans is abusive, whether it involves physical injury or not.
    ...
    Singer believes that although sex between species is not normal or natural, it does not constitute a transgression of our status as human beings, because human beings are animals or, more specifically, "we are great apes".

    Doh! You lose ... again!

    Singer is so well known for this disgusting Darwinian tripe its amazing that you and your Darwhining buddies can't put 2 + 2 together to get a proper sum. Egnor is nevertheless correct in his meaning.

    Dr Singer was quoted:
    "Sex with animals does not always involve cruelty."

    And if cruelty is the problem, isn't raising them to kill them generally worse than coupling with them?

    "When it comes to bestiality, the stakes are relatively small: while factory farming kills billions of animals a year, he said, human-animal sexual interactions involve only hundreds or thousands."


    So who's the idiot here thorny? You as always.

    You IDiots don't have two brain cells to rub together between you, do you?

    2 cells? Well actually we have billions.
    But gee even if, that beats your 'no brain at all' any day.

    Homophobia?

    rotflmao - Thanks for giving us more proof of your brainwashing.

    You've been brainwashed by the gay marketing (propaganda) plan huh? "After the Ball: How America will conquer its ts Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's" -yet another example of the logical conclusions of Darwinian idiocy - and of course proves Egnor correct.

    The worst of course thorny, is that you completely miss the point - also as always.

    The point being that if Darwinism were true Singer would be right. Get over it you poor little groveler.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Gary said...

    T: " LOL! Gary you moron, you're making Tedford look bright. That was not a true story"

    Really? Well gee you know nothing of Singer then do you? I'll bet you agree with him though. You have no choice. Neither does any other unthinking bozo of a Darwinist.


    Really moron. Everything you quoted Singer as saying was 100% fabrication by Egnor. Egnor is a well known Creationist who frequently posts at the Discovery Institute's cesspool of science disinformation.

    Face it - you're so stupid you fell for a farcical phony 'interview' and are now the one with egg all over your yappy little puppy face.

    BTW, where is your ID explanation for the empirically observed distribution of the fossil record? You were so busy with your gay-bashing you completely forgot the science question.

    ReplyDelete
  42. squid ink schuster said...

    One book talks about scientifc enquiry, not the Scientific Method. One book talks about scientific thinking. One book says there is no set Scientific Method. So I'm not sure what people mean when they say that the Scientifc Method is the Way to the Truth. Which Scientific Method?


    Poor squiddy, you must be so confused! The articles use different words! There must be giant gobs of difference between a "means of inquiry" and a "method." They couldn't possibly be saying the same thing.

    I bet the difference between 'select' and 'choose' must put you into a cold panic.

    ReplyDelete
  43. The other day I was watching CNN and they showed part of the Casey Anthony trial (for those who are unfamiliar, it's a criminal trial happening in the U.S where the mother of a toddler is accused of murdering her child) The defense had an 'expert' witness on the stand (a psychologist/psychiatrist type) explaining how Casey's (the accused) attitude and actions of partying and getting a tattoo, etc while her daughter was missing and presumed dead, could be consistent with a person dealing with grief.

    When the prosecution started questioning this witness, he almost immediately got her to admit that ANYTHING between being really really sad and really really happy could be consistent with grief. In other words, there's no attitude/actions that a person could do that could be called INconsistent with grief.

    When I heard that, I rolled my eyes because it's the SAME 'logic' used by darwinists regarding their myth. ANYTHING is consistent with it, even when the evidence completely contradicts the predictions made. No matter how many times we read how evolutionists were 'shocked' or 'surprised' by new findings, it's always claimed by darwinists to be consistent with darwinism.

    At least with the grieving process we know it's not really scientific because we have no idea if the person is REALLY grieving or just claiming to be...but with darwin's myth, which is supposed to be a 'scientific' theory, it shows just how faith-based it truly is.

    Dr Hunter's motto is 100% accurate:

    Religion drives science, and it matters.

    ReplyDelete
  44. National Velour:

    When I heard that, I rolled my eyes because it's the SAME 'logic' used by darwinists regarding their myth. ANYTHING is consistent with it,...

    Some things are not particularly consistent with it. For example, evolution would have a hard time explaining the occurrence of fruit flies starting to give birth to dogs. ID, on the other hand, would have no such problem...

    ReplyDelete
  45. National Velour said...

    No matter how many times we read how evolutionists were 'shocked' or 'surprised' by new findings, it's always claimed by darwinists to be consistent with darwinism.


    Just curious National Velour - did you read any of those hundreds and hundreds of pages' worth of positive evidence for evolution? The evidence you claimed doesn't exist? Or are you still happy remaining 100% ignorant on the topic?

    It's not science's problem that all the evidence found to date is consistent with the overarching principle of common descent over deep time. People ignorant of science always start screaming if a new bit of evidence comes along that changes our understanding of some fine detail of the process, even completely reverses our understanding. But nothing in the last 150 years has been discovered that contradicts the basic principles.

    Not falsified doesn't mean not falsifiable. It's amazing how many Creationists can't grasp that important difference.

    ReplyDelete
  46. BTW National Velour, there are many things that if found would falsify the current theory of evolution. Having the phylogenetic tree formed by the genetic record be totally different that the one formed from the fossil record for instance.

    Not falsified doesn't mean not falsifiable. That bears repeating until you finally grasp the concept.

    ReplyDelete
  47. @Thornton: "Why don't you start with the 'intelligent design' explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record, including the Cambrian and Precambrian fossils."

    The fossil record has very little temporal distribution. The vast majority of it is animals caught in sediments deposited suddenly by the global flood. It is obvious that sediments on top of other sediments are also deposited later, but this is later by hours, days or months, not millions of years. We all know the classic story of fossilisation presented to children, as it was to me: an animal dies, sinks to the bottom and is gradually covered by slowly deposited sediment. Of course this is complete nonsense, since a body lying on the sea floor would be scavenged and destroyed long before it could be covered. In fact a body found in rock must have been covered quickly. Thus we find millions of fossil nautiloids in the Grand Canyon rocks, we find fossil graveyards of land creatures unnaturally piled together and so on. Polystrate fossils (trees penetrating layers supposedly representing thousands or millions of years) are further evidences among many of the catastrophic origin of the sedimentary layers.

    Experiments have shown that sediment in fast-moving water is deposited in layers similar to those found in sedimentary rock, and the Mount St Helens eruption was accompanied by mud flows that created tens of metres of such rock in a few hours.

    The supposed geological column is built from the beginning on the false assumption of great age (which is necessary in the first place to support the whole idea of evolution). It is by no means as uniform as it is presented to the public and of course it nowhere exists as an entire unit; it is a theoretical construct. There is plenty of evidence to contradict it, including pollen from seed-bearing plants found deep inside pre-Cambrian rocks, and thus hundreds of millions of years out of sequence according to the evolutionary myth: http://creation.com/pollen-paradox

    The entire long-age structure is built not on real data but on Lyell's determination to exclude Moses from science. This was a philosophical assumption, not a scientific one, and it was imposed on the evidence, not derived from it.

    ReplyDelete
  48. As I stated, I repeat: "Really? Well gee you know nothing of Singer then do you? I'll bet you agree with him though. You have no choice. Neither does any other unthinking bozo of a Darwinist"

    So what does poor Thorny say: "Everything you quoted Singer as saying was 100% fabrication by Egnor...."

    My my my. Not quite.
    This must apply to all the other info I posted on Singer, which sadly - for you that is - is all true and concords exactly with what Egnor said anyway. LOL

    You haven't got a bloody clue on anything do you.

    How did you ever get a degree?
    Oh let me guess, by chanting "Darwin is my god and no facts or evidence will ever change that, so help me Richard Dawkins!" to your profs, right?

    Singer is notorious for his Darwinism-based views on bestiality.
    And if that fool hardy theory were true, he'd be right.
    You avoid this little tidbit of fact I see. Because you agree with him at heart don't you?
    Can't answer honestly on this either huh.

    To quote an old movie, "You can't handle the truth!", Thorny.
    This is why you're forced to respond with more missing the point diatribe - as you always do.

    " Face it - you're so stupid you fell for a farcical phony 'interview' and are now the one with egg all over your yappy little puppy face."

    ROTFLMAO - again.
    You can't even insult me with any originality.

    And btw, I'd rather have a little egg in my face than the shit that's all over yours.

    Nevertheless Singer is exactly as portrayed by Egnor, parody or not. Of course now, you'll have to deny this.

    " BTW, where is your ID explanation for the empirically observed distribution of the fossil record? You were so busy with your gay-bashing you completely forgot the science question."

    Gay-bashing? Telling the simple empirical facts is more like it. But you are immune to that I see.

    You have the nerve to call yourself a scientist all while denying every scrap of evidence that goes against your inane world-view-based metaphysical Darwinian fundamentalism. Shame on you.

    The fossil record?!

    You're serious aren't you!?

    If it tells us anything at all it's that Darwin got it wrong.

    As CH is constantly attempting to get into the Darwinistas incredibly (evolved) thick skulls: when the evidence goes against your risible Darwinian fundamentalist bantha dung philosophy, you all deny it.

    Or worse, you get together and do the magical shake-a-rubber-chicken dance, chanting, "Oh ye gods of magical evolution! Help us to find a way to make this contradictory evidence fit with our precious theory! In Darwin's name we ask thee. ... PLEASE hurry!"

    Then you go around yelling, "The theory predicted this contrary evidence too, so it isn't really contradictory."

    As much as you wish it wasn't true, bestiality, and anything else you care to imagine in your twisted mind, is all ok under this sick excuse for science called materialist neo-Darwinism.

    You've been had bad thorny.

    Worse, you can't even understand plain English and you prove it every time you attempt rebuttal.

    Of course that's why I usually don't even bother attempting to answer the ubiquitous codswallop you spew forth, or attempt to get any sense into that MIND ON HOLD of yours.

    Same goes for all the other inane drone Darwhiners here: always proving CH right by insisting on revealing just how blind they are.

    Well gee, guess that'll teach me to stop trying to wake the "dead from the neck up" here -again.

    Logic don't work, insults don't work, reason does even exist under Darwinian theory, nor does free will, and Darwinists are all immune against common sense and facts anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Gary the yappy little puppy said...

    yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap!


    LOL! Keep yapping there Gary. You fell for a phony 'interview' and now you look like a complete jerk. Now your squirming and twisting only makes you look dumber.

    You still haven't given us the ID explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record. We both know you don't have one, but I was hoping you'd amuse us by making up some more Creationist gibberish.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Oliver said...

    @Thornton: "Why don't you start with the 'intelligent design' explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record, including the Cambrian and Precambrian fossils."

    The fossil record has very little temporal distribution.


    I won't deal with your other Gish Gallop nonsense, but this is a demonstrable falsehood right off the bat. Trilobites for example are never found in strata younger than the Permian. Theropod dinosaurs like velociraptors are never found above the KT boundary while bivalve mollusks like clams are found from today all the way back to the Cambrian. Did the clams outrun the raptors to higher ground during DA FLUD?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Thorton said...

    Gary the yappy little puppy said...

    yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap!

    LOL! Keep yapping there Gary. You fell for a phony 'interview' and now you look like a complete jerk. Now your squirming and twisting only makes you look dumber.

    =============================

    Well, Gary is incredibly thick!

    ReplyDelete
  52. Thorton: Well Gary the yappy little puppy, since Cornelius refuses to tell us what HIS theory is despite being asked hundreds of times, maybe you could stop peeing on the rug long enough to enlighten us.

    Thorton,

    Essentially, Cornelius has assumed the role of a modern day shaman, claiming to interpret divinely revealed heavenly secrets that explain earthly realities of biological complexity.

    To meet this goal Cornelius selectively communicates with his audience. In particular, to point out specific scientific observations they should and should not accept, as they supposedly represent conflicting evidence against evolutionary theory and support their world view. Apparently, they can't think for themselves, and need him to "interpret" these things for them.

    However, Cornelius does *not* need to communicate his world view, shared presuppositions, justificationalism, etc., to his audience. He's preaching to the choir. As such, these assumptions are implicitly smuggled into his arguments.

    Furthermore, it would clearly NOT in Cornelius' best interest to explicitly reveal these shared presuppositions as they would unnecessarily expose his arguments to rational criticism that they cannot withstand. This includes the same sort of epistemological criticism he makes of evolution.

    As such, it's no surprise that Cornelius has not come clean to disclose his position on several key question he has been asked time and time again. He simply doesn't need to disclose to meet his goal, as they are accepted and shared by his target audience.

    In other words, it appears that Cornelius willing to do whatever's necessary to meet that goal - including dishonestly failing to disclose assumptions and presuppositions he smuggles into his arguments, despite multiple, clear, direct requests for clarification.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Thorton said...

    Gary the yappy little puppy said...

    yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap!

    LOL! Keep yapping there Gary. You fell for a phony 'interview' and now you look like a complete jerk. Now your squirming and twisting only makes you look dumber.


    Gee thorny do you think you can make yourself look even more childish and moronic? I'm positive you can so keep going please, I'm really enjoying irking you to such a point.

    Every response you give lowers the collective IQ average of the whole Internet by at least 20 points.

    You still haven't given us the ID explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record. ... blah blah blah

    And all of us that are still using our brains are still amused that you're assuming the fossil record supports Darwinian pseudo-science.

    How do you Darwhiners do this?
    Oh right, by believing Darwinism is true and then shoehorning the data into it - as always.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Oliver:
    The vast majority of it is animals caught in sediments deposited suddenly by the global flood.

    That would one of an infinite ways the designer(s) could have done things. Others include using numerous floods or creating the look like there was a flood(s). ID gives you no clue as to how to differentiate between these alternatives, meaning that ID gives no explanations at all regarding the distribution in the fossil record.

    You know, Oliver, there is a reason why people keep asking for ID explanations from ID supporters and there is a reason why so few of them are offered.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Scott:

    I see you're joined the Thorny Club.

    Have a great time missing the point.
    That's Thorny's prime reason for existence as he demonstrates here every single day. (He has nothing better to do)
    Seems its yours too, by the looks of that last entry there.

    "Because of their commitment to an obsolete theory, most molecular biologists operate under the assumption that DNA is the secret of life, whereas the careful observation of the hierarchy of living processes strongly suggests that it is the other way around: DNA did not create life; life created DNA" - Barry Commoner, Unraveling the DNA Myth

    Get over it before it runs all of you Darwinians down like dogs in the street.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Ritchie,

    "And the scientific method leaves no room for miracles."

    It would be interesting to watch you use the scientific method to prove miracles do not happen. Good luck with that one Ritchie.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Gary,

    Thorton, myself and others have asked Cornelius direct, relevant questions which he has failed to respond. And he has done so consistently, despite repeated requests for clarification. These are facts.

    Furthermore, it's not that Cornelius has responded by indicating how these questions are irrelevant. He's simply dodges them.

    Do you deny this? It's all there in black and white on this blog.

    For example, I've asked Cornelius if there is a solution to the problem of induction. If so, what is it? Without such a solution, then he's merely waving his hands over a theory that he personally objects to, as no such confirmation is possible in regard to any scientific explanation. I've also asked, as a confessing Christian, where Cornelius puts divine revelation in the traditional hierarchy of deduction, induction and philosophy. Again, no clear response.

    This is despite the fact that Cornelius has, on multiple occasions, criticized evolution on grounds of epistemology.

    Of course, Cornelius need not actually disclose this view or convince his audience on his position because he's preaching to the choir. As such, he does not need to disclose this information publicly.

    Instead, he smuggles these assumptions into his arguments, shielding them from rational criticism.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Thornton: "[quoting me:] The fossil record has very little temporal distribution.

    I won't deal with your other Gish Gallop nonsense, but this is a demonstrable falsehood right off the bat. Trilobites for example are never found in strata younger than the Permian. Theropod dinosaurs like velociraptors are never found above the KT boundary "

    Trilobites were plainly sea-bottom creatures, so they are found under almost everything else. Whether your second statement is actually true, I don't know. Quite possibly the KT boundary is not evident in all places where they are found, in which case your claim would be unprovable.

    What does "Gish Gallop" mean? Is it an Americanism?

    ReplyDelete
  59. Hawks: "You know, Oliver, there is a reason why people keep asking for ID explanations from ID supporters and there is a reason why so few of them are offered."

    I'm not an ID supporter, but a creationist. I agree that ID cannot give the truth about these things, because it does not look at all the data. We have the history of these things recorded in the bible.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Gerry -

    "It would be interesting to watch you use the scientific method to prove miracles do not happen. Good luck with that one Ritchie."

    A swing and a miss.

    I did not say we can prove miracles do not happen. Since, by definition, a miracle could allow ANYTHING to happen, we can never disprove them. Just like we can never disprove that the world around us is actually an illusion and we are in the Matrix.

    But to peform any kind of science we must ASSUME miracles do not happen. If we allow they do happen, then performing science is impossible.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Neal -

    "Ritchie, you're exaggerating the "countless discoveries" that you believe diminish the Cambrian fossils that Darwin had problems with."

    I don't see why. These 'countless discoveries' involve virtually everything in the field of genetics which shows us very clearly that creatures predated the Cambrian Explosion by millions of years.

    "The trend in the last 150 years has been:

    1. A lessening of the Cambrian explosion timeframe."

    Currently we put it in the region of 15 million years. You talk as if this was a negligible amount of time.

    "2. An increasingly complete picture of precambrian fossils... which don't show transitionals."

    Transitionals? What do you mean transitionals? Every species is transitional - between its ancestors and its descendants.

    Or do you perhaps mean precursors or ancestors? It's true we rarely find them in the fossil record. But we have a likely explanation for that - the Cambrian Explosion marks the appearance of hard body parts such as teeth, bones and armour. Parts which fossilize! Jellyfish, for example, hardly ever leave fossils because they simply don't have any parts which fossilize. What we find at the level of the Cambrian Explosion is fossils of teeth, and armour. It is not that creatures didn't exist before this - it's that they didn't have fossilizing parts.

    This 'explosion' does not mark the sudden appearance of creatures on Earth - it marks their sudden appearance in our fossil record.

    And do we have any evidence to back up this hypothesis? Yes we do. Genetic evidence tells us creatures lived, and evolved, well before the Cambrian Explosion.

    ReplyDelete
  62. cdesign proponentists are so fond of copypasta...

    Gary quoted:

    "Because of their commitment to an obsolete theory, most molecular biologists operate under the assumption that DNA is the secret of life, whereas the careful observation of the hierarchy of living processes strongly suggests that it is the other way around: DNA did not create life; life created DNA"
    - Barry Commoner, Unraveling the DNA Myth

    I took a look to that article. The author misrepresents a lot of things, most notably, Crick's "central dogma". But the interesting thing is that it says nothing against universal common descent or the mechanisms of evolution. The article is a criticism of DNA-centrism in modern biology. Such kind of criticism can have some merit, but this particular article is clearly an exaggeration. But never mind that. I wonder if Gary could explain what the author meant in that quote and why it is relevant as an argument against evolution. What's the logic behind the sound bite, Gary?

    ReplyDelete
  63. Blas -

    "I agree with your description of science, but the upper paragraphe is wrong, that are not facts are hipotesis or teories based on assumptions. Facts are fossils we have, the age of that fossils are assumptions based on facts. We assume life changed because we extrapolate small changes we observe now, but we do not have observtion of the change evolution claims, and we have fossils supposed very old identicals to living forms. So facts is many live forms do not change over the time."

    I must admit I am having trouble working out what you're saying here. But life on Earth has changed. We have a huge number of fossils which match no creatures living today. And whilst some species have retained basically the same structure for millions of years, their genetic history bears the signs of their common ancestry with the rest of life on Earth.

    "The hype of ToE as usual. The value of a thoery is his capacity of make predictions. Can predict something the ToE?"

    Yes. We can predict, for example, diseases will eventually become resistant to currently used antibiotics. Which diseases, which antibiotics and when is extremely difficult to say. But it will happen. Indeed, it happens all the time. diseases become drug resistant precisely for the reason that they evolve drug resistance.

    "And Creationism and ID are not the only alternatives to the ToE, one of the links of this blogs is John Davidson blog. He has another vision of evolution. Also this guy
    http://designmatrix.wordpress.com/

    has an alternative vision of evolution, and there are/was many alterntives."

    Jim davidson actually posted on here for a bit a while back, and let me assure you he is a) no scientist, b) quite bonkers. His rantings are no serious challenge to modern evolutionary theory in any way shape or form.

    You are, however, correct that there was once competing theories to the theory of evolution via natural selection. Lamarck theorised that animals develop certain body parts during their lifetime and these were somehow passed on to their offspring. This, and other ideas, have eventually been falsified. It is only evolution via natural selection which has stood the test of time.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Oliver:

    I'm not an ID supporter, but a creationist.

    Well, you were responing to a comment asking for an ID explanation so, I assumed that you were talking about an ID explanation (and your explanation is an ID one, for that matter).

    I agree that ID cannot give the truth about these things, because it does not look at all the data.

    That is not why ID fails but rather the reason I specified earlier: ID gives you no reason to choose one ID hypothesis over certain others. Looking at more data is not going to make any difference.

    We have the history of these things recorded in the bible.

    Pffft. There are an infinite number of possible deities. The probability that your one is the "true" one is infinitely small - and that's even when I give you, simply for the sake of argument, the actual existence of some sort of deity. Let me guess, you find Pascal's wager compelling as well...?

    ReplyDelete
  65. Oliver -

    "Discussion about miracles and science is beside the point. Miracles are by definition outside science which is about how things happen normally; miracles are by definition abnormal."

    Pretty much, yeah. So if you have a theory which relies of miracles happening, you know your theory is not scientific. As is the case with ID/Creationism.

    "Merely declaring that science does not allow for a supernatural creator does not stop Him existing (nor does it stop Him holding you responsible for your denial of his creating)."

    Yes that's true. Science has no power to disprove God - or unicorns, fairies or any supernatural being for that matter.

    "Jesus rose from the dead. If you declare it is not so because science does not allow for such events, you are letting your investigative system substitute for thought. It is a question that science cannot handle; it is instead a historical question. Nobody supposes that the dead are habitually resurrected; when it happens, science cannot say anything about it because it is not repeatable."

    I agree. But no-one is trying to disprove God here. Science simply builds its own picture about how the world works - and it's discoveries simply provide reliable theories which render supernatural beings irrelevant. Where once we supposed gods which controlled the weather, the seasons, diseases or life on Earth, we now have workable scientific theories which explain these things - theories which have the advantage of being scientific, testable, reliable, and not at all dependant on fantastical and entirely unsubstanciated beings. And as such, are infinitely to be preferred by any rational person.

    "Since the world was recently created, there was no 500 million years ago, so nothing existed then."

    Wow. Care to back up how you work out the date of the Earth and find it to be so young? Would it be the Bible, by any chance?

    "The contrary evidence is ignored; for example, the pollen from flowering plants found deep in preCambrian rocks, the unfossilised tissue in dinosaur bones or the unexpected existence of C14 in supposedly ancient diamonds."

    Care to source all of this?

    ReplyDelete
  66. Thorton said:

    BTW National Velour, there are many things that if found would falsify the current theory of evolution. Having the phylogenetic tree formed by the genetic record be totally different that the one formed from the fossil record for instance.

    You mean like this:

    "For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life,” says Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, France. “We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality,” says Bapteste.

    Graham Lawton, "Why Darwin was wrong about the tree of life," New Scientist (January 21, 2009)

    Or maybe Thorton, you actually believe the evidence supports the mythical tree of life of darwin because:

    Striking admissions of troubles in reconstructing the “tree of life” also came from a paper in the journal PLOS Biology entitled, “Bushes in the Tree of Life.” The authors acknowledge that “a large fraction of single genes produce phylogenies of poor quality,” observing that one study “omitted 35% of single genes from their data matrix, because those genes produced phylogenies at odds with conventional wisdom"

    Antonis Rokas & Sean B. Carroll, "Bushes in the Tree of Life," PLOS Biology, Vol 4(11): 1899-1904 (Nov., 2006) (internal citations and figures omitted).

    ReplyDelete
  67. Gary the yappy little puppy said...

    Gee thorny do you think you can make yourself look even more childish and moronic? I'm positive you can so keep going please, I'm really enjoying irking you to such a point.


    I'm not irked, I'm actually quite amused that you got caught believing a phony 'interview' and have too fat an ego to admit you were wrong. Typical Creationist in other words.

    T: You still haven't given us the ID explanation for the physical and temporal distribution of the fossil record.

    And all of us that are still using our brains are still amused that you're assuming the fossil record supports Darwinian pseudo-science.


    I didn't say or ask a single thing about the fossil record supporting evolution. I keep asking for your ID explanation of the empirically observed patterns. Why do you keep avoiding? Here's your chance to really put an evil Evo in his place by supplying a good alternate explanation. But all you do is yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! and *piddle*.

    ReplyDelete
  68. National Velour said...

    Thorton said:

    BTW National Velour, there are many things that if found would falsify the current theory of evolution. Having the phylogenetic tree formed by the genetic record be totally different that the one formed from the fossil record for instance.

    You mean like this:


    Sorry NV, but Bapteste is a dyed-in-the wool 100% evolution acceptor. His comments only deal with horizontal gene transfer (HGT) at the lowest levels of the evolutionary tree, typically prokaryotic cells, and do nothing at all to cast doubt on the solidly established phylogenetic relationships of multi-celled animals. Creationist who don't understand biology love to quote-mine him though.

    Sean B. Carroll is another well known research scientist who has written extensively on the evolutionary history of life as determined by the science of evolutionary development, or evo-devo for short. Your quote from Carroll is another blatant quote-mine that you should be ashamed to mention, taken from a dishonest Creationist site.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Oliver said...

    Thornton: "[quoting me:] The fossil record has very little temporal distribution.

    Trilobites were plainly sea-bottom creatures, so they are found under almost everything else.


    Clams are also sea-bottom creatures and they are found everywhere, both below, with, and well above the dinosaurs.

    Do you have a coherent explanation? Did the clams outrun the all the T-Rex to higher ground during DA FLUD too?

    ReplyDelete
  70. Geoxus said...

    I took a look to that article. The author misrepresents a lot of things, most notably, Crick's "central dogma". But the interesting thing is that it says nothing against universal common descent or the mechanisms of evolution. The article is a criticism of DNA-centrism in modern biology. Such kind of criticism can have some merit, but this particular article is clearly an exaggeration. But never mind that. I wonder if Gary could explain what the author meant in that quote and why it is relevant as an argument against evolution. What's the logic behind the sound bite, Gary?


    Gary hasn't quite mastered the skill of reading for comprehension yet. See his faceplant with the Egnor parody above as a good example. Like most Creationists, all Gary knows is how to C&P crap from Creto/IDiot websites with zero understanding or care. He's defending Jeebus you know, so truth and/or accuracy isn't important.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Gerry said...

    Ritchie,

    "And the scientific method leaves no room for miracles."

    It would be interesting to watch you use the scientific method to prove miracles do not happen. Good luck with that one Ritchie.


    Science doesn't need to prove miracles don't happen any more than it needs to prove Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist.

    If you want people to believe miracles happen, then the burden of proof is on your to come up with some positive evidence for miracles.

    First thing you'll have to do is come up with an objective definition for 'miracle'. Give it a go.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Thorton:

    One book actually said there is no set scientific method. And in my dictionary, "inquiry," "thinking" and "method" all have different meanings. I didn't see "methods of inquiry" just "inquiry."

    What exactly would your definition for the "Scientific Method" be?

    ReplyDelete
  73. Thorton:

    Some of the books mention forming a hypothesis. Some leave that out. Some mention experiments, some don't. Are experiments and hypothesis significant?

    ReplyDelete
  74. Ritchie,

    "I did not say miracles do not happen."

    Speaking of swinging and missing, you missed the point. Science can indeed be done with the allowance for miracles as miracles would be only the temporary suspension of scientific facts. We know if we drop a brick off a building it will fall. If however, for some reason God would choose to prevent the brick from dropping on a certain occasion that would not invalidate science or the laws of gravity.

    As for the world around us being an illusion, that can be disproven as anyone possessing even the slightest ability in critical thinking is fully aware.

    Maybe if you did some serious research instead of watching very poor movies you would know these things.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Thorton,

    The burden of proof is on you..."

    Typical response and completely wrong. Your denial of miracles is as much a claim to knowledge as my acceptance of miracles and therefore you bear an equal burden of proof to support your position. As you cannot prove they do not happen you base your position in faith as do I.

    The definition of a miracle exists in every dictionary, perhaps you should buy one.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Gerry -

    "Science can indeed be done with the allowance for miracles as miracles would be only the temporary suspension of scientific facts. We know if we drop a brick off a building it will fall. If however, for some reason God would choose to prevent the brick from dropping on a certain occasion that would not invalidate science or the laws of gravity."

    Not true at all. There is no limit to the number of miracles God is alledgedly able to produce, and therefore no reason to assume the more 'common' response is the 'natural' one. You seem to suggest that if a brick is dropped 100 times and falls 99 times, yet floats away once, we can assume falling is the 'natural' result from being dropped and floating away is the miracle simply because falling is the more common outcome. But why should this be the case? But can't God have created 99 miracles when the 'dropped' bricks were released? It is a possibility we cannot discount.

    "As for the world around us being an illusion, that can be disproven as anyone possessing even the slightest ability in critical thinking is fully aware."

    Then it should be no problem for you to do so. Please put me in my place and demonstrate how we can be sure the world around us is not an illusion.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Ritchie: "Pretty much, yeah. So if you have a theory which relies of miracles happening, you know your theory is not scientific. As is the case with ID/Creationism."

    Just popping through and caught your defense of science. Well done, mate; thank you. Without meaning to step on your toes I'd like expand a bit due the continuing confusion over this point.

    Science is foremost a modelling exercise and so requires regularity in what it is modelling. This is more important than correctness as regular errors are easily modeled themselves even if a happy theorem of causation is otherwise missing. This is why provably false theories are still quite often of good practical use. Miracles, as part of its notion, are simply unlikely violations of that regularity that occur with a probability low enough to thwart proper modelling. So any reliance on such miracles precludes any rigorous description of a given system. All such systems are matters of pure philosophy; or, if you're feeling a bit peckish, religious claptrap.

    The second and related problem is that of demonstration. Theories are tested against their predictions by performing a demonstration. Theories are tested against each other in the same manner. It's also a way of weeding out charlatans making false claims under science. They refuse to provide a demonstration, or refuse to admit the failure of one, on the basis that they require Miracles. That the odds of success are so low that it cannot be successfully demonstrated.

    More than any other concept, it is eschewing Miracles that makes science what it is.

    Thornton: "If you want people to believe miracles happen, then the burden of proof is on your to come up with some positive evidence for miracles."

    Absolutely. Now about Evolution. Are we able to perform demonstrations that evolve Bacteria into Biplanes? Or are we begging leave on account of Miracles?

    ReplyDelete
  78. And as for burden of proof, the rational position on anything is one of scepticism. It is to doubt the existence of anything until is can be reasonably shown to be true.

    Why? Well, let us take a random proposition: that fairies exist. Is it rational to assume they do, to assume they do not, or to be entirely non-commital on the subject. You might be tempted to take the third option, since the first two appear to be positions taken on faith.

    But consider this: many propositions cannot be falsified. Fairies, for instance. If we define them as beings able to become incorporeal, invisible and intangible at will, then we can never disprove them. We end up with, in fact, a vast number of fantastical, magical beings, all of which we are unable to dismiss. Unicorns, goblins, giants, ghosts, imps, djinns, genies, bogeymen, the list goes on and on.

    A rational person brings Occam's Razor to bear to cut away such extraneous and unnecessary fantasies. It is far, far better to be naturally sceptical about any new proposition, but also willing to change your mind should evidence come along to prove your scepticism wrong.

    So Thornton is quite right to about miracles. The burden of proof really is on you here.

    ReplyDelete
  79. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Jquip - well put. Until the end. Do you imagine anyone is saying bacteria evolved into biplanes? Or have I totally misread that?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Gerry:

    As for the world around us being an illusion, that can be disproven as anyone possessing even the slightest ability in critical thinking is fully aware.

    Be my guest.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Ritchie, apologies for the slang: Dragonfly.

    A hazard on Occam's by the by. When dealing with competing axiomatic systems it is in good taste and as you said -- so long as you don't hold that there are rational reasons for rationality. But in purely philosophical domains it leads to unemployment.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Ritchie:


    Multiverse is a perfectly scientific theory. It postulates an infinite number of universes, with different laws. It certainly violates Occam's razor. And, if it is true, then there are universes out there where fairies, witches, leprechauns, ghosts, ogres, etc. exist.

    ReplyDelete
  84. squid ink schuster said...

    Thorton:

    One book actually said there is no set scientific method. And in my dictionary, "inquiry," "thinking" and "method" all have different meanings. I didn't see "methods of inquiry" just "inquiry."

    What exactly would your definition for the "Scientific Method" be?


    Sorry nat, but your writing is not understandable. One sentence you say 'scientific method' and the next you say 'the scientific method'. You are using different word so you must mean completely different things.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Thorton:

    Is there one Scientific Method? If so, what is it? Are there several Scientific Methods? I can't tell from the books.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Jquip said...

    Thornton: "If you want people to believe miracles happen, then the burden of proof is on your to come up with some positive evidence for miracles."

    Absolutely. Now about Evolution. Are we able to perform demonstrations that evolve Bacteria into Biplanes? Or are we begging leave on account of Miracles?


    'Positive evidence' doesn't mean we have to recreate the entire event from scratch in a lab. Positive evidence means we can find evidence left from the event that gives a clear indication of what happened. In the case of dragonfly evolution, we do have positive evidence in the form of proto-dragonfly insect fossils as well as genetic evidence showing the shared common ancestry.

    Aircraft accident investigators can often determine why a plane crashed based on the trace evidence. No one demands that they crash another 747 full of people as a demonstration of their findings.

    ReplyDelete
  87. squid ink schuster said...

    Thorton:

    Is there one Scientific Method? If so, what is it? Are there several Scientific Methods? I can't tell from the books.


    There you go again nat, being confusing! One post you say 'scientific method' and the next you say 'Scientific method. You capitalized the second so obviously you mean two completely different things. No one can understand when you keep using different words.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Gerry said...

    Thorton,

    The burden of proof is on you..."

    Typical response and completely wrong. Your denial of miracles is as much a claim to knowledge as my acceptance of miracles and therefore you bear an equal burden of proof to support your position. As you cannot prove they do not happen you base your position in faith as do I.


    I have no need to prove supernatural miracles don't happen. I can be content in knowing there is zero evidence for them happening.

    The definition of a miracle exists in every dictionary, perhaps you should buy one.

    There are many different definitions of 'miracle', from the benign "the occurrence of an extremely low probability event" to "an event that occurred due to supernatural intervention". I have no problem with accepting that the first kind happen. I have no evidence that the second kind happen. That's why I'd like you to present your definition, one you accept.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I'm confusing because I'm cofused. People say that there exist a Scientific Method that is the way to the Truth. When refering to that concept, I capitalize, Then I read the textbooks to find different definitions the Scientific Method, or discussions of things like scientific thinking, or inquiry. And one textbook says there is no one Scientific Method.

    ReplyDelete
  90. natschuster said...

    I'm confusing because I'm cofused.


    Sure you are squiddy. Hey, maybe you can help me here. There was a story on the various news channels last night about a dog that saved its owner by waking him up when the house was on fire. One station described 'a small brown dog', another described 'a petite brown colored dog' another described 'a small dog with brown fur'.

    I'm so confused! Were there actually three different dogs??

    ReplyDelete
  91. Nat -

    "Multiverse is a perfectly scientific theory. It postulates an infinite number of universes, with different laws. It certainly violates Occam's razor. And, if it is true, then there are universes out there where fairies, witches, leprechauns, ghosts, ogres, etc. exist."

    Well the multiverse theory is hardly well supported. It is really little more than a hypothesis, an idea, a suggested explanation. This is hardly my field, yet to my knowledge no-one has actually been able to gather any evidence of, or infer the the existence of, other universes outside this one. We would do well to be sceptical of this theory (if it deserves the name, rather than 'hypothesis') until it can be substanciated.

    Yet as a hypothesis it does have certain points in its favour. Chief of which being it doesn't infer the existence of anything which does not actually exist. We know that universes do exist - we are in one. Universes are clearly not impossible. We know of one. The multiverse 'theory' simply asks that if one exists, why not two, or ten, or a million?

    Because of this it enjoys a probabilitic advantage over theories which invoke fantastical beings, such as fairies, ghosts or gods. We do not have any evidence of even one of these beings, so we cannot at all be certain that these are even possible at all.

    Once you know for certain a horse exists, the existence of a hundred thousand more horses is more likely than the existence of a single unicorn.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Ritchie said: “I must admit I am having trouble working out what you're saying here. But life on Earth has changed. We have a huge number of fossils which match no creatures living today. And whilst some species have retained basically the same structure for millions of years, their genetic history bears the signs of their common ancestry with the rest of life on Earth.”

    Fact: We have a huge number of fossils which match no creatures living today”

    Assumption, they evolved in other forms. There is no prove of this.

    “their genetic history bears the signs of their common ancestry with the rest of life on Earth”

    Fact DNA sequences of differents species.

    Assumptions: Common ancestry. There is no prove of common ancestry. All the evidences for common ancestry are based on one the nested hierarchie of traits (with exceptions) and all the evidences do not preclude models with no common ancestry.

    “We can predict, for example, diseases will eventually become resistant to currently used antibiotics. Which diseases, which antibiotics and when is extremely difficult to say. But it will happen. Indeed, it happens all the time. diseases become drug resistant precisely for the reason that they evolve drug resistance.”

    You do not need ToE for this prediction, just noting the adaption capacity of all the living forms you can predict that.

    “Jim davidson actually posted on here for a bit a while back, and let me assure you he is a) no scientist, b) quite bonkers. His rantings are no serious challenge to modern evolutionary theory in any way shape or form.”

    Autorithy argument. Was Darwin a scientist? Has he a degree? The important hing is he has another theory of evolution of species different of darwinism.

    “ It is only evolution via natural selection which has stood the test of time.”

    In the mainstream of rented science. Go outside ask people, they beleive earth is rotating around the sun. They do not beleleive apes and man has a common ancestor.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Blas said...

    In the mainstream of rented science. Go outside ask people, they beleive earth is rotating around the sun. They do not beleleive apes and man has a common ancestor.


    Some people believe the sun and stars rotate around the unmoving Earth. Some people believe that the Earth is hollow with demons living inside it. Some people believe Elvis is still alive and living with Bigfoot in a hidden bunker under the Taj Mahal.

    Why do you think the opinion of uneducated laymen somehow trumps the huge body of accumulated scientific evidence for common descent?

    ReplyDelete
  94. Blas -

    "Fact: We have a huge number of fossils which match no creatures living today”
    Assumption, they evolved in other forms. There is no prove of this."

    Proof? No. Supporting evidence? A VAST deal from a many fields.

    "Fact DNA sequences of differents species.
    Assumptions: Common ancestry. There is no prove of common ancestry. All the evidences for common ancestry are based on one the nested hierarchie of traits (with exceptions) and all the evidences do not preclude models with no common ancestry."

    Again, proof? No. Supporting evidence? Lots and lots! There is not one nested hierarchy of nested traits - there are several, drawn up from several fields, and the fact that they CONVERGE is powerful validating evidence.

    "You do not need ToE for this prediction, just noting the adaption capacity of all the living forms you can predict that."

    But how? By what mechanism do they adapt if not by natural selection?

    "Autorithy argument. Was Darwin a scientist? Has he a degree? The important hing is he has another theory of evolution of species different of darwinism."

    It does not matter at all how educated or qualified Jim Davidson is. If he has an alternative theory to the theory of evolution then we must consider it. But he does not have any such thing. He might believe he does, he might claim he does, but his theories are fatally flawed and badly thought-out. He has nothing to challenge modern evolutionary theory.

    "In the mainstream of rented science. Go outside ask people, they beleive earth is rotating around the sun. They do not beleleive apes and man has a common ancestor."

    I don't know where you're from but the majority of people here in Britain - and in every other developed country - do indeed accept common descent. Especially scientists - people whose job it is to investigate and understand such things. Indeed the only real challenge to it comes from religious quarters - people who don't WANT to accept it because they WANT to believe that their chosen deity is responsible (if only partly) for life on Earth.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Thornton: "'Positive evidence' doesn't mean we have to recreate the entire event from scratch in a lab."

    So then we are agreed that we are begging leave on account of Miracles, in preference for a standard based on injecting our biases into an archaelogical record. If we accept this standard as being scientific then we must also accept that Sodom and Gomorrah were given a little bit of Godly wrath on account of the 'positive evidence' for this occurrence. If we further accept that children should receive a comprehensive education in science then public education should involve the perils of, well, sodomy.

    The argument you're presenting is as fallacious as it is common.

    "No one demands that they crash another 747 full of people as a demonstration of their findings."

    This is probably a poor analogy to choose in support of your argument as we have demonstration that the plane did exist, was in good working order, and took off from an airport. We further have black-box recordings that demonstrate the path of demise of the aircraft as well as particulars and cockpit recordings of expert witnesses to the event. We then collect the remains to identify possible failures that could have led to all the data previously demonstrated. Once such candidates are hypothesized they are then tested for stress and failure modes to see if they may account for those demonstrations. Lastly recommendations, possibly including further engineering and demonstrations, are put forth. At the end of all of which the given causes and cures are typically granted only a provisional status as the 'likely cause' rather than 'the' cause. All of which is proper engineering and science.

    What you're putting forward as the preferred and sufficient evidence is simply the remains of the remains of random and possibly unrelated animals and lineages. This remains true even if we accept the strongest statements as to common descent and the Modern Synthesis. I have no idea what you would find a suitable analogy for this condition but the process of the NTSB most certainly is not it.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Blas: "I don't know where you're from but the majority of people here in Britain - and in every other developed country - do indeed accept common descent."

    This does little to recommend the state of science education in developed countries. Given the weakest notion of common descent as being that of consistent lineage we find that HGT falsifies the notion quite soundly. To salvage this we must make the much stronger statement that there was only single act of genesis -- abio, bio, deo, or whatever else you prefer. This so HGT does not validate the singular family tree. But in so doing we must make the statement that there was only *one* instance of creation. Taking abiogenesis as an example, if we presume that the genesis event was inevitable then we must certainly accept that there could, and quite likely should, have been multiple events. In the face of HGT we cannot then state that common descent holds.

    However if we presume that the genesis event was a Miracle then we are firmly embedding Miracles into what purports to be a scientific theory.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Jquip said...

    So then we are agreed that we are begging leave on account of Miracles, in preference for a standard based on injecting our biases into an archaelogical record. If we accept this standard as being scientific then we must also accept that Sodom and Gomorrah were given a little bit of Godly wrath on account of the 'positive evidence' for this occurrence.


    You have positive evidence that God smote Sodom and Gomorrah? Does that include turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt? What positive evidence would that be?

    At the end of all of which the given causes and cures are typically granted only a provisional status as the 'likely cause' rather than 'the' cause. All of which is proper engineering and science.

    Since all of science is considered provisional and subject to revision upon the introduction of new evidence, even common descent, what is your point? Present enough evidence that common descent is false and provide an alternate, better explanation for the empirically observed patters and science will be all ears. In the mean time science will stick with the current explanation.

    What you're putting forward as the preferred and sufficient evidence is simply the remains of the remains of random and possibly unrelated animals and lineages.

    LOL! If that's your understanding of the quality and quantity of the evidence for common descent this conversation is done before it starts. Why don't you just jump to the Creationist "it's all interpretation!!" hand wave and save some time?

    ReplyDelete
  98. Jquip said...

    This does little to recommend the state of science education in developed countries. Given the weakest notion of common descent as being that of consistent lineage we find that HGT falsifies the notion quite soundly.


    Er...no. Not even close. All HGT does is bring into question phylogenetic relationships established by mapping any one single gene, as any one gene may have an HGT history. But common descent is established by mapping thousands of different genes across lineages and observing the consistent patterns.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Thornton: "You have positive evidence that God smote Sodom and Gomorrah? Does that include turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt? What positive evidence would that be?"

    We have the archaeological record certainly. Just as we have the paleontological record. If your claim is that proper science can eschew demonstration -- 'cause Miracles are hard, yah? -- then injecting biases into any collection of such rocks is just as easily warranted.

    You are free to cherry-pick which biases we're allowed to inject as you like. But I submit to you that such would still not be science.

    "Present enough evidence that common descent is false and provide an alternate, better explanation for the empirically observed patters and science will be all ears."

    This is a sad attempt at shifting the burden. It is on the claimant to demonstrate their theory's validity by means of demonstration. The point is that this is something that the NTSB engages in. Your claim is that Evolution should not need be held to this standard because Miracles are hard.

    But if you prefer to hang your hat on the exemplar set by the NTSB then it should be a trivial matter for you to show the demonstrations provided for evolving Bacteria into Biplanes.

    "Why don't you just jump to the Creationist "it's all interpretation!!" hand wave and save some time?"

    Without demonstration it is all interpretation. Historical narratives, if you will, that are predicated on injecting our personal biases onto history. If you're in a debate with a YEChead you should remind them of this if they make a claim to the truth of Biblical issues on the basis of the positive evidence in the historical record.