Thursday, December 30, 2010

It Didn’t Begin (or End) With Darwin

By far the most amazing aspect of evolution is not its idea that all things just happened to arise spontaneously but—even more eyebrow raising—its claim that all of this is a scientific fact. It would be irrational and perverse to deny it, insist evolutionists. Evolution is, they say, beyond any shadow of a doubt, as certain as gravity, nay even more certain. This claim is so obviously false that it begs the question: what are evolutionists thinking?

Evolutionists say their idea is an obvious scientific fact and they have explained why over and over. In fact, the reasoning was already well established when Charles Darwin wrote Origin a hundred fifty years ago.

For instance, Darwin agreed that the perfection of the eye reminds us of the telescope which resulted from the highest of human intellect. Was it not right to conclude that the eye was also the product of a great intellect? This may seem the obvious answer but Darwin warned against it, for we should not “assume that the Creator works by intellectual powers like those of man.” Better to imagine the eye as the result of natural selection’s perfecting powers rather than having god too much involved in the world.

This warning against anthropomorphizing god came right out of the Enlightenment philosopher David Hume whose writings Darwin was well familiar with. It was a reaction to English natural theology that argued the world looks designed by god. Hume argued this made god out to be too much like His human creatures. For example, the natural theologians were fond of comparing the human body with machines such as clocks. No one doubts that a clock was designed, so why not the body as well? Hume used the problem of evil to negate this argument. Better to view god as distant and unknowable, and a creation that somehow arose on its own. Hume had no problem with god being infinitely powerful and wise, but he must also be transcendent and incomprehensible:

But as all perfection is entirely relative, we ought never to imagine that we comprehend the attributes of this divine being, or to suppose that his perfections have any analogy or likeness to the perfections of a human creature. Wisdom, thought, design, knowledge; these we justly ascribe to him; because these words are honorable among men, and we have no other language or other conceptions by which we can express our adoration of him. But let us beware, lest we think that our ideas anywise correspond to his perfections, or that his attributes have any resemblance to these qualities among men. He is infinitely superior to our limited view and comprehension; and is more the object of worship in the temple, than of disputation in the schools.

Far more lasting and influential than this anthropomorphic warning argument were the various arguments from evil, inefficiency and dysteleology. God would never have created this gritty world. These arguments had been developed and tested in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and by Darwin’s day a foundation had been laid.

The predation and bloodshed in nature was an obvious example of a creation that seemed unbefitting of a loving god. But Darwin added a great many examples of nature’s designs that seemed to be better explained as a consequence of the blind interplay of natural laws than intelligent design.

Darwin presented these arguments throughout his book, with great conviction that they made his theory compelling. The first one appears at the end of the second chapter.

The first two chapters of Origin are on the topic of biological variation. In the first chapter Darwin discusses what breeders had learned (Variation Under Domestication) and in the second chapter he discusses biological variability in the wild (Variation Under Nature). The two chapters serve as a good summary of what was known at the time.

Darwin ends Chapter 2 with a section entitled Summary, but here he introduces a new, important idea. Yes, he summarizes what he has been discussing, but he provides a new, powerful interpretation:

In genera having more than the average number of species in any country, the species of these genera have more than the average number of varieties. In large genera the species are apt to be closely, but unequally, allied together, forming little clusters round other species. Species very closely allied to other species apparently have restricted ranges. In all these respects the species of large genera present a strong analogy with varieties. And we can clearly understand these analogies, if species once existed as varieties, and thus originated; whereas, these analogies are utterly inexplicable if species are independent creations.

Earlier in the chapter Darwin had made a few comments in passing about creationism, but nothing too significant. But here Darwin introduces the reader to the power behind his long argument. The pattern will repeat many times: long tedious passages followed by the powerful conclusion that nature’s evidence falsifies divine creation.

Don’t worry if you don’t completely follow the observations Darwin discusses in the above quote. Here’s what you need to understand. The take home message for evolutionists is that, as usual, there are no viable explanations other than evolution’s. The observations may not be fully understood under evolution, but under creation or design the story becomes downright impossible. As one of the twentieth century’s leading evolutionist Ernst Mayr wrote:

The greatest triumph of Darwinism is that the theory of natural selection, for 80 years after 1859 a minority opinion, is now the prevailing explanation of evolutionary change. It must be admitted, however, that it has achieved this position less by the amount of irrefutable proofs it has been able to present than by the default of all the opposing theories.

Or as Stephen Jay Gould put it:

Odd arrangements and funny solutions are the proof of evolution—paths that a sensible God would never tread but that a natural process, constrained by history, follows perforce. No one understood this better than Darwin. Ernst Mayr has shown how Darwin, in defending evolution, consistently turned to organic parts and geographic distributions that make the least sense.

Designs that make the least sense. They are one of the keys to understanding evolutionary thinking. In addition to the other arguments for why evolution is a fact, I examined this argument from dysteleology ten years ago in my book Darwin’s God: Evolution and the Problem of Evil, and others such as Paul Nelson had discussed it earlier. And so I was delighted to see this key evolutionary argument for the fact of evolution elaborated in the prestigious science journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a year ago.

The paper was written by philosopher Elliot Sober who for years had been analyzing evolution’s arguments in great detail. In that paper Sober points out that while one of the main objections to evolution, both when Origin was published and in the minds of many present-day Creationists, is the idea that species are separated from each other by walls. Darwin, Sober explains, overcame this with those designs that make the least sense:

Darwin thought he had strong evidence for common ancestry. This is enough to show that insuperable species boundaries (and insuperable boundaries between “kinds”) are a myth; if different species have a common ancestor, the lineages involved faced no such walls in their evolution. …

Adaptive similarities provide almost no evidence for common ancestry while similarities that are useless or deleterious provide strong evidence for common ancestry.

And why are useless or deleterious similarities so helpful? It is not because they raise the probability of common ancestry, but rather because they lower the probability of separate ancestry. In other words, the reason common descent is a no-brainer is that the alternative, separate ancestry, is extremely unlikely. Sober call this Darwin’s Principle.

I referred to this analysis and Sober’s paper in my previous posting and several evolutionists commented that I had misrepresented Sober. Here are some of their comments:

False. Sober said no such thing in that book. In fact, he said the opposite.

Darwin’s principle refers to the notion that traits that are not selectively advantageous are better evidence for common descent than are traits that are selectively advantageous. He says this in the context of comparing common descent to separate ancestry.

You are quite fond of misunderstanding Sober, aren’t you?

But in fact Sober did say such a thing. In the paper Sober clearly explains that Darwin’s Principle, which demonstrates species are not separated by insuperable boundaries, is based on the ratio of (i) the probability of evidence on common ancestry divided by (ii) the probability of evidence on separate ancestry. The key is that the argument is compelling not because of the former being high, but because of the latter being low. It is not a direct argument for common ancestry, but rather an argument against separate ancestry.

As Mayr and Gould explain above, evolution is a fact because design or creation is false, as demonstrated by so many inefficiencies and bad designs that make the least sense. Over and over, Darwin made arguments against divine creation as his proofs for evolution.

Sober explains this argument in great detail in his book Evidence and Evolution. Here is how he summarizes the paradox that common descent can be found to be a fact though the evidence is unlikely:

This last result provides a reminder of how important the contrastive framework is for evaluating evidence. It seems to offend against common sense to say that E is stronger evidence for the common-ancestry hypothesis the lower the value is of [the probability of E given the common-ancestry hypothesis]. This seems tantamount to saying that the evidence better supports a hypothesis the more miraculous the evidence would be if the hypothesis were true. Have we entered a Lewis Carroll world in which down is up? No, the point is that, in the models we have examined, the ratio [the probability of E given the common-ancestry hypothesis divided by the probability of E given the separate-ancestry hypothesis] goes up as [the probability of E given the common-ancestry hypothesis] goes down. … When the likelihoods of the two hypotheses are linked in this way, it is a point in favor of the common-ancestry hypothesis that it says that the evidence is very improbable. [Sober, Evidence and Evolution, p. 314]

In other words, it doesn’t matter that common descent is not a good theory. It must be true because the alternative is even worse.

As Sober explains his PNAS paper, the key is designs that are have low probability on separate ancestry. He gives examples such as gill slits in the human embryo and our tail bone, but Darwin used dozens of examples in addition to the Chapter 2 example above. These are classic examples used by evolutionists to show how compelling is evolution. The probability on common descent may be weak, but it must be true because the probability on design or creation is zero. Here are representative embryology and gill slit quotes from leading evolutionists:

How does God’s plan for humans and sharks require them to have almost identical embryos? [Douglas Futuyma, Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, p. 48]

The passage through a fishlike stage by the embryos of the higher vertebrates is not explained by creation, but is readily accounted for as an evolutionary relic. [Tim Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, p. 22]

Now, we’re not absolutely sure why some species retain much of their evolutionary history during development. The “adding new stuff onto old” principle is just a hypothesis—and explanation for the facts of embryology. It’s hard to prove that it was easier for a developmental program to evolve one way rather than another. But the facts of embryology remain, and make sense only in light of evolution. [Jerry Coyne, Why Evolution is True, p. 78-9]

These evolutionary arguments certainly are powerful, but their power comes from their metaphysics. If the evolutionists are correct in their theological and philosophical premises then of course evolution is correct. Its likelihood would be a number divided by zero. And that is infinity. Granted the numerator may be small, but the denominator is zero. So it does not matter how ridiculous evolutionary theory is—it must be a fact.

All arguments for the fact of evolution are metaphysical. From the seventeenth century to today, evolutionists gain their tremendous confidence from their religious convictions. That doesn’t mean they are wrong, but it does place a tremendous burden on their metaphysics.

Sober does not approve of such metaphysics. Do they not make objective analysis impossible? In his book he first levels this criticism at creation and design. As I wrote in my review of his book:

Sober next presents what he takes to be a “devastating objection” to the design argument, first raised by David Hume in the eighteenth century. Sober argues that evolutionists should not make theological claims in proving evolution. Likewise, Sober finds the same defect in the design argument. For when Paley argued that the complexity of the eye implies a designer, was he not assuming knowledge of what God would design? [126, 141-147] Ultimately Sober concludes that creation and ID cannot even follow basic scientific protocol. [356]

And Sober agrees that evolutionists should not use such metaphysics as well. But Sober’s disapproval does not remedy the problem. As Gould and Mayr document, Darwin’s argument rested on the low probability of the alternative. This has not changed since Darwin and today, though evolutionists insist their idea is a scientific fact, it would be better characterized as a religious mandate. Every argument for why evolution is a fact is metaphysical. That doesn’t mean it is false, but it should not be thought of as a scientific fact.

222 comments:

  1. Hunter:

    Every argument for why evolution is a fact is metaphysical.

    I don't see a logical connection between the (questionable) claim that contrastive reasoning is metaphysical and the above sweeping claim. Here's an opportunity for Professor Hunter to clarify his thinking. What other arguments for why evolution is a fact are metaphysical?

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  2. Another clarification that is overdue is the Professor's definition of "metaphysical."

    Does that word mean hypothetical, or not testable empirically, or what?

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  3. Cornelius Hunter, you really need to contact your blogspot support to find out why comments keep disappearing.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Zachriel,

    Try posting without any embedded links, leaving websites as plain text to be copied and pasted.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Cornelius Hunter:

    No one doubts that a clock was designed, so why not the body as well?

    No one doubts this because we have seen humans design and build clocks.

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  6. Cornelius Hunter: Evolution is, they say, beyond any shadow of a doubt, as certain as gravity, nay even more certain. This claim is so obviously false that it begs the question: what are evolutionists thinking?

    Evolution is a fact; it is observed.
    Evolutionary theory is an entangled set of hypotheses and observations.
    Common descent is one of those hypotheses; when creationists say evolution is false, they generally mean they do not accept the validity of common descent.

    The hypothesis of common descent is not beyond the shadow of doubt (since there are plenty of people who doubt it), but it is beyond reasonable doubt given the information that we have from genetics, embryology, morphology, ethology, and paleontology. Scientists consider it absurd that anyone conversant with this data would deny common descent. It is telling that the major voices speaking out against it have a religious axe to grind.

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  7. Apologies to all for double posting. I seem to lack the ability to delete my own posts.

    Cornelius, feel free to remove my first comment in this thread.

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  8. anaxyrus:

    "Apologies to all for double posting. I seem to lack the ability to delete my own posts."
    ===

    You can actually do this yourself by clicking on the garbage can symbol at the bottom of your post next to the Date/Time post link at the bottom. The trash icon will remain for some time(not sure how long) and it will only be seen by you when logged in to post. Hope that helps. Others have helped me here, but even still the software program at times remains a bit of a mystery even for the oldies.

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  9. anaxyrus: Try posting without any embedded links, leaving websites as plain text to be copied and pasted.

    We'll try that. You also conveniently posted most of our response.

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  10. Eocene,

    Thanks for trying to help, but there is no trashcan symbol visible on my previous posts. When I go to comment, I log in. After the comment is posted, it immediately logs me back out again.

    I'll try to be careful with my posts, but the error in my first post had to be corrected because it changes the meaning of the sentence entirely.

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  11. Pedant:

    "Another clarification that is overdue is the Professor's definition of "metaphysical."

    Does that word mean hypothetical, or not testable empirically, or what?"
    ===

    This has never been tough to define or understand. I believe most people understand what he means and he has defined this in the past. Science is supposed to fascillitate the explanations of things not understood by "LAYMAN"(gasp) through NATURALISTIC or PHYSICAL explanation so that physical material beings such as ourselves can relate to. Unfortunately this is almost totally difficult for both sides of the Creos vrs Evos debate.

    I look at the term as I remember it used years ago when I first heard it with regards New Age healing as opposed to conventional healing. Someone claiming to healing by means of unexplained power through their healing hands as opposed to any physical conventional medicine. Hence New Age healing through spiritualistic or metaphysical meaning spiritualistic or non-physical. So "metaphysical healing" means healing by means of remedies that are not physical as we understand is the case with conventional medicine.

    Meta meaning "beyond" and Physics a root word of "physical". So think in terms of an explanation beyond the realms of physical understanding of life as we know and relate to it. That's why both sides incorporate faith-based statements for things that cannot be explain in purely physical terms. Many of the stories of assumed events and life from the past are often presented as fact when in fact no one was actually there and the readers are expected to take it on faith that the story teller has it right. Become skeptical of the story telling(especially in an atmosphere of ideology promotion) and you become demonized by the other side. Again this can go both ways and many on both sides will deny this is the case.

    But I believe you and others do understand what he means, you simply don't like it.

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  12. anaxyrus:

    Evolution is a fact; it is observed.

    Is this a fair statement? What Creationists call micro-evolution is surely observed. But they object that macro-evolution - the appearance of new body parts, such as lungs - has not been directly observed; it is an inference.

    Can such inferences be regarded as facts, even if not directly observed? I think they can, if adequately supported by observations (which are facts, by the way.)

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  13. Ernst Mayr: The greatest triumph of Darwinism is that the theory of natural selection, for 80 years after 1859 a minority opinion, is now the prevailing explanation of evolutionary change. It must be admitted, however, that it has achieved this position less by the amount of irrefutable proofs it has been able to present than by the default of all the opposing theories.

    Here Mayr is talking about something completely different from Hunter's argument. Common descent became the majority opinion less than two decades after 1859. It is the dominance of natural selection as the agent of evolutionary change that remained a minority opinion until the 1940s (as many scientists favored orthogenesis or some flavor of saltationism). Mayr couldn't replay the tape of life, so he couldn't prove natural selection's prominent role in history. But to paraphrase A.C. Doyle, when all other possibilities are extinguished, the probability that the sole remaining explanation is correct approaches unity.

    Ironically, this conclusion can be rejected today; most aspects of evolution are explicable by genetic drift rather than necessitating natural selection. Natural selection remains the preferred explanation of adaptation (and has been proven in field studies to yield adaptation), it's just that most of evolution is not adaptation.

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  14. Pedant: Is this a fair statement? What Creationists call micro-evolution is surely observed. But they object that macro-evolution - the appearance of new body parts, such as lungs - has not been directly observed; it is an inference.

    Microevolution is evolution. Macroevolution is also evolution. These terms describe the evolutionary process viewed at different scales of observation. Scientists use these terms too (creationists didn't invent the terms micro- and macroevolution), as well as the definition of scientific fact that you mentioned and Gould discussed. Microevolutionary adaptation and drift are observable facts; macroevolutionary universal common descent is an inferable fact.

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  15. anaxyrus,

    Good, we agree. I thought it might be helpful to have your clarification.

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  16. Cornelius,
    What a pathetic response. First, you do not even acknowledge that you were mistaken stating that Sober agreed that bad designs were evidence against Creationism/ID (in fact he said the opposite). Second, you do not acknowledge the significance of this point, i.e. that the bad design argument is completely dispensable as evidence for evolution. You seem to think it is the linchpin of evolutionary thought, but in fact it is just a silly piece of rhetoric. Third, you still do not seem to understand that what you term "contrastive reasoning" is the basis of most modern science. In any statistical test, you only support Hypothesis X by showing that the null hypothesis is extremely improbable (typically, p<0.05). In the case of common ancestry, Hypothesis X is common descent and the null is separate descent.

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  17. anaxyrus,
    nice catch on the Mayr distortion by CH. that's two in two days, but I'm sure he won't acknowledge this one either.

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  18. Pedant:

    "Evolution is a fact; it is observed."

    Is this a fair statement? What Creationists call micro-evolution is surely observed.
    ===

    The real truth here, is it even evolutionary in the first place ??? Or is it an example of an organism simply adapting and maintaining it's existance in the environment. Examples are the constant engineering of bacteria and other micro-organisms to consume and recycle the elements around the natural world. Especially is this important when bacteria's job is made more challenging by the pigs on the planet called Human Beings. Still it will always remain a major faith statement of belief that it nevertheless drives macro and if you don't believe it your a stupid and delusional for even questioning the Ecclesiastical Hierarchies running modern secularistic science.
    ---

    Pedant:

    "But they object that macro-evolution - the appearance of new body parts, such as lungs - has not been directly observed; it is an inference.
    ===

    Well of course. All the major philosophers(Dawkins, etc) even admit it is impossible to observe/test/prove without faith that it nevertheless is a fact. This observed process of the "micro" is always ASSUMED as the driver behind what makes the dogma of macro work. So faith-based statements are manufactured to prop up what cannot be physically or naturalistically proven/explained(MACRO) other than speculations, assertions and assumptions. Hence we come back full circle to custom of "metaphysics" insertion to word picture the unexplainable through story invention and have to deal with word gaming which makes the whole subject meaningless except to the faithful.

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  19. Pedant:

    "Can such inferences be regarded as facts, even if not directly observed?"
    ===

    If your heart(seat of what motivates you) wants it bad enough, sure.
    ---

    Pedant:

    "I think they can, if adequately supported by observations (which are facts, by the way.)"
    ===

    But then we're back to square one with just exactly what should be considered a hard core physically observable fact and what is purely nothing more than faith.

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  20. What Creationists call micro-evolution is surely observed.

    Eocene: The real truth here, is it even evolutionary in the first place ???

    Yes, it is certainly evolution. It is the change in heritable traits in a population. For instance, we can start with a single bacterium. Over time, we can show that some of its offspring are resistant to antibiotics, and that this resistance is heritable. We can also note that in the presence of antibiotics, there is a tendency for the population to be dominated by the resistant strain. That's biological evolution.

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  21. Cornelius Hunter: Ernst Mayr has shown how Darwin, in defending evolution, consistently turned to organic parts and geographic distributions that make the least sense.

    The geographic distributions, such as no frogs in distant volcanic island freshwater settings, made very little sense to Darwin and others who were willing to question it, under the model of special creation that held at the time. Their absence under that model had to be a quirk, a curiosity. But under the model of common descent, the difficulty of amphibian dispersal made this result a highly explicable and understandable outcome.

    The gross inefficiencies and the clumsy if adequate constructions seen in some parts of the natural world are improbable only if natural selection is operating with free reign to start from scratch in each species; understanding that natural selection is constrained by history, these quirks are probable results. Again, a god could have done this, or anything else. The observation becomes just a curiosity. Inasmuch as "a capricious god willed it that way" can be used to explain literally anything, it has no currency in science, having been recognized as an impediment to further understanding rather than a springboard.

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  22. In previous threads, it was pointed out that evolution has multiple senses, and that if Cornelius Hunter means biological adaptation or common descent, he should be specific.

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  23. Zachriel:

    "Yes, it is certainly evolution."
    ===

    No that is YOUR OPINION. Your opinion is not a fact, it is faith.
    ---

    Zachriel:

    "It is the change in heritable traits in a population."(broken record)
    For instance, we can start with a single bacterium. Over time, we can show that some of its offspring are resistant to antibiotics, and that this resistance is heritable. We can also note that in the presence of antibiotics, there is a tendency for the population to be dominated by the resistant strain.
    ===

    None of these sophisticated mechanics and purposed engineering by the organisms have anything to do with evolution, this is merely your religious faith-based belief. This is the constant broken record being played on an old Hi-Fi that's seen better days. Nothing about the observed behavior of the engineering going on remotely behaves as the dogma insists in the first place and yes you won't like it, but blind undirected forces with no purpose whatsoever guiding life is never observed in any of this. Prove a foundation for blind purposeless forces bringing about guidance driven mechanisms, then we'll talk antibiotic resistance as evolutionary proofs. Until then it's the same old ORTHODOXY as when your holyman Darwin penned it.

    ---

    Zachriel:

    "THAT'S BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION."
    ===

    No that's a bold faith-based statement and philosophical ASSUMPTION.

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  24. anaxyrus,
    "The gross inefficiencies and the clumsy if adequate constructions seen in some parts of the natural world are improbable only if natural selection is operating with free reign to start from scratch in each species"

    I disagree here. it is the sharing of quirks (actually, neutral traits are best) between different species that provide evidence of common descent.the probability that two species would convergently evolve the same adaptive trait are higher than the probability that they would convergently evolve the same neutral trait. This is why shared neutral traits are such powerful evidence for common descent, with no designer hypothesis needed.

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  25. nanobot74,

    I think we're discussing different things here. I agree with what you have stated. What I said is that in a world without constraints of history, in which natural selection had free reign to "target" some desired result in the morphologic landscape and head toward that result, we wouldn't see these suboptimal quirks in morphology persisting.

    Of course, in reality there are constraints beyond phylogenetic history, such as material availability and the adaptive landscape.

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  26. Eocene

    Your Chihuahua is scary! What could possibly be in that needle?

    ReplyDelete
  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Zachriel: Yes, it is certainly evolution.

    Eocene: No that is YOUR OPINION. Your opinion is not a fact, it is faith.

    It meets the scientific definition.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

    How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?

    Perhaps you should provide a definition of evolution for discussion.

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  29. anaxyrus,
    "Of course, in reality there are constraints beyond phylogenetic history, such as material availability and the adaptive landscape."

    yes, even quirky arrangements of adaptive traits could be shared through convergence if there was only one way an adaptive trait could "work." usually this is not true, however, as is evidenced by the many different forms of hemoglobin.

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  30. These evolutionary arguments certainly are powerful, but their power comes from their metaphysics. If the evolutionists are correct in their theological and philosophical premises then of course evolution is correct. Its likelihood would be a number divided by zero. And that is infinity. Granted the numerator may be small, but the denominator is zero. So it does not matter how ridiculous evolutionary theory is—it must be a fact.

    The only time we would divide by zero (when comparing evolution to some sort of creator) would be when comparing evolution to ID - i.e. an unidentified designer. The likelihood of ID, as Sober argues, can't even be estimated and would be infinitely small. The same would apply when comparing anything to ID, btw. For example, given no designer, the likelihood that there, at this very moment, would be snow near the loction I now happen to be is ridiculously low (the sun would have to warm Earth enough, weather patterns would have to be permissible etc [heck, there would even have to be an Earth to begin with]). The observation is a heck of a lot likelier than under ID, though. So, I suppose that my hypothesis that the snow actually fell from the sky, having previously been liquid or gaseous H2O, is pure meta-physics...

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  31. Hawks:

    ===
    So, I suppose that my hypothesis that the snow actually fell from the sky, having previously been liquid or gaseous H2O, is pure meta-physics...
    ===

    Well, what is your opinion? If you or someone argued that X must be a fact, even though it is bad science, because Y is so unlikely. Do think that is scientific reasoning? And then, on top of that, Y is said to be unlikely for religious reasons. Do think that is scientific reasoning? And then, on top of that, Y is said to be not allowed in science anyway. Do think that is scientific reasoning?

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  32. anaxyrus:

    ===
    Evolution is a fact; it is observed.
    ===

    It is telling that evolutionists fall back on this equivocation when they are questioned. Evolution, the one that is called a fact, is most definitely *not* observed. Even the evolutionists, when evolutionists explain why it is a fact, acknowledge this. But when called to account, they backpedal, and change the story. Then when you go away, it's back to the first version.


    ===
    Evolutionary theory is an entangled set of hypotheses and observations.
    ===

    Of course. Many patches and explanations are required. But the fact claim is straightforward.

    ===
    The hypothesis of common descent is not beyond the shadow of doubt (since there are plenty of people who doubt it), but it is beyond reasonable doubt given the information that we have from genetics, embryology, morphology, ethology, and paleontology. Scientists consider it absurd that anyone conversant with this data would deny common descent.
    ===

    Yes, it is true evolutionists say this. But not the scientific data. The above statement is simply yet another case of an evolutionist lying about the data. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but this is such an extreme misrepresentation of the science it is difficult to understand how it could be a mistake. I could use soft words, such as "inaccurate," but that would be false.


    ===
    It is telling that the major voices speaking out against it have a religious axe to grind.
    ===

    Are you really interesting in detecting axes? Even a slight passing familiarity with the literature and history of evolution would tell you that evolutionists have a "religious axe to grind."

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  33. anaxyrus:

    ===
    Here Mayr is talking about something completely different from Hunter's argument. Common descent became the majority opinion less than two decades after 1859. It is the dominance of natural selection as the agent of evolutionary change that remained a minority opinion until the 1940s (as many scientists favored orthogenesis or some flavor of saltationism). Mayr couldn't replay the tape of life, so he couldn't prove natural selection's prominent role in history.
    ===

    No, Mayr discusses the spectrum of ideas, including divine creation type ideas. This quote illustrates evolution's use of contrastive thinking and reliance on the disprove of a set of alternatives.

    ===
    But to paraphrase A.C. Doyle, when all other possibilities are extinguished, the probability that the sole remaining explanation is correct approaches unity.
    ===

    Who decides what all other possibilities are, and how they are evaluated?

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  34. Hunter:

    Yes, it is true evolutionists say this. But not the scientific data.

    This is incorrect. Data “say” nothing in the absence of a working hypothesis about what they might say.

    The above statement is simply yet another case of an evolutionist lying about the data. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but this is such an extreme misrepresentation of the science it is difficult to understand how it could be a mistake.

    The “evolutionist” interprets data in light of the evolutionary hypothesis. That makes her a liar? I don’t think so.

    I could use soft words, such as "inaccurate," but that would be false.

    This from the person who said on the previous thread, giving his views on origins research::

    In fact, I do not hold strongly to any particular idea because the evidence isn't there to justify doing that.

    Hunter may choose extreme skepticism about biological data, but that does not make his position the only conceivably correct position. Persons who choose to interpret evidence in light of an hypothesis may be mistaken, but they can’t be called liars. Honestly, they can’t.

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  35. nanobot74:

    ===
    What a pathetic response. First, you do not even acknowledge that you were mistaken stating that Sober agreed that bad designs were evidence against Creationism/ID (in fact he said the opposite).
    ===

    You are failing to distinguish between an ought and an is. In his book Sober argues evolutionists shouldn't use metaphysical premises. He argues you can't compute the probabilities. Sober's opinion doesn't change the reality of what is, which he documents in his paper, which is what I was referencing. The examples he cites, gill slits and tail bones, are classic metaphysical arguments evolutionists use.


    ===
    Second, you do not acknowledge the significance of this point, i.e. that the bad design argument is completely dispensable as evidence for evolution.
    ===

    Only if evolutionists were to forfeit the fact claim.

    ===
    You seem to think it is the linchpin of evolutionary thought,
    ===

    No, there are several other metaphysical arguments as well, but it is an important one.


    ===
    but in fact it is just a silly piece of rhetoric.
    ===

    Evolutionists continually use it when arguing evolution is a fact. If it were merely silly, dispensable, rhetoric, then it would be easy for you to cite the reference giving the non-silly explanation for why evolution is a fact.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Pedant:

    ===
    The “evolutionist” interprets data in light of the evolutionary hypothesis. That makes her a liar? I don’t think so.
    ===

    Oh I see. so when evolutionists say evolution is beyond any reasonable doubt, a fact, they don't really mean it. We're supposed to just ignore them because it is all just circular reasoning. What they really mean is that if you view the world through evolutionary lenses, then all data perfectly support evolution, even though objectively the data provide no such support.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Cornelius Hunter: Evolution, the one that is called a fact, is most definitely *not* observed.

    What do you mean by "evolution"? Common Descent?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Hunter:

    Oh I see. so when evolutionists say evolution is beyond any reasonable doubt, a fact, they don't really mean it.

    To say something is a fact does not place it beyond any reasonable doubt. How could that possibly be the case, short of divine revelation? I and others have pointed this out repeatedly. And you will no doubt continue to equivocate on this point, as you persist in your (futile) efforts to discredit those pesky evolutionists.

    What they really mean is that if you view the world through evolutionary lenses, then all data perfectly support evolution, even though objectively the data provide no such support.

    When someone tells you what someone else "really means," you can brace yourself for a straw man fallacy. Of course, no one claims that all data perfectly support evolution. Some data support it better than other data. Some data are irrelevant to the evolutionary hypothesis. But to claim that there is no empirical support for the hypothesis is untenable.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Zachriel:

    ===
    What do you mean by "evolution"? Common Descent?
    ===

    What I mean by "evolution" is no different than what evolutionists mean by "evolution" when they claim it is a fact. If you read the literature you'll see they are referring to the claim that natural laws and processes, and only natural laws and processes, created life and its various species.

    Of course natural selection and common descent are important parts of the idea, but they can be forfeited. There could be drift, there could be multiple ancestors, etc. None of this goes agaisnt the over arching idea of evolution.

    ReplyDelete
  40. On further thought, having served on several juries and having been on each occasion instructed by the judge to arrive at a verdict "beyond a reasonable doubt," I would say that evolution really is a scientific fact beyond a reasonable doubt. The key term here is the word "reasonable," and on what is or is not reasonable is open to interpretation, alas.

    I mistakenly took Dr Hunter’s latest formulation, “beyond a reasonable doubt” for his more usual formulation, as in the OP above, “beyond any shadow of a doubt.”

    My interpretation of Dr Hunter's doubts is that they are not reasonable. Alas.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Hunter:

    What I mean by "evolution" is no different than what evolutionists mean by "evolution" when they claim it is a fact. If you read the literature you'll see they are referring to the claim that natural laws and processes, and only natural laws and processes, created life and its various species.

    How dare those evolutionists restrict their notion of fact to natural laws and processes? Perverse liars who dare not admit that they have (metaphysically) ruled out the unobservable and untestable.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Cornelius,

    I said: Common descent became the majority opinion less than two decades after 1859. It is the dominance of natural selection as the agent of evolutionary change that remained a minority opinion until the 1940s

    Cornelius Hunter said: No, Mayr discusses the spectrum of ideas, including divine creation type ideas.


    In Toward a New Philosophy of Biology, the quote you cited is on p.92. Earlier on p. 89 Mayr writes: "Non-Darwinian biologists. Although the biologists accept [sic, should read accepted] evolution and common descent almost unanimously, most of them had reservations about natural selection".

    Earlier in the chapter Mayr indeed discussed creationist ideas, but for most of the 80 year span Mayr discussed these were generally held by non-biologists (as is the case today).

    Yes, evolutionary biology relies on contrastive reasoning. So does science generally. It's not an issue. The opposite of common ancestry of life on Earth is separate creation of the species. If species on Earth did not have separate origins, it logical to infer that they must have had a common origin. They sum to the universal set of possibilities.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Cornelius:
    ====
    By far the most amazing aspect of evolution is not its idea that all things just happened to arise spontaneously
    ====

    Dish, Ham & Hovind pers. comm.?

    Cornelius,
    You were shown that Sober did not argue against ID from the existence of "bad design". Won't you admit you were wrong?

    Here, you are still misrepresenting Sober. In the previous posts you talked about if the existence of maladaptive or suboptimal features ("bad design") was to be considered evidence for evolution.
    Sober said that it is wrong to argue for or against evolution because of the existence of suboptimal design. Darwin's Principle is about how superfluous, suboptimal and neutral similarities support common ancestry.

    Is is not that the mere existence of suboptimal features supports CA or evolution in general, but the fact that (certain, not any) suboptimal and neutral features can be linked by similarity, leading to the discovery of similarity patterns that are highly consistent with common ancestry.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Cornelius Hunter:Who decides what all other possibilities are, and how they are evaluated?

    The relevant scientists, of course. Testable hypotheses are evaluated on the basis of relative likelihood, as you mentioned. If God chose to transform himself into a testable hypothesis, he could mosey up to the starting gate as well.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Hunter:

    Who decides what all other possibilities are, and how they are evaluated?

    anaxyrus, I think that Dr Hunter is referring to his claim that you can't employ contrastive reasoning if you don't know all possible alternative hypotheses. And you can't claim to know all possible hypotheses, because a hypothesis that you haven't thought of may well be possible.

    In short, you don't know what you don't know. But that's the history of science, which plays with the cards in the deck available at any point in time. And that's the history of any human endeavor.

    ReplyDelete
  46. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Maybe it is time to collect the metphysical arguments in support of the ToE. I could so far identify three:
    1) God would not interfere in nature on a regular basis.
    2) Bad design.
    3) Design of evil.

    Did I miss something? It would be nice if somebody could complete the list.

    ReplyDelete
  48. second opinion,

    I think that any argument about God is not properly classified as metaphysical. Rather, it is classified as theological.

    Until Professor Hunter provides his definition of metaphysics, we can only speculate.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Pedant,

    Concerning contrastive reasoning, there can only be two possibilities in this case: life diverged from common ancestry or it didn't. Unless CH is arguing that Boolean logic is Satan tricking us, then he cannot complain that there are other alternatives, in reality all he could have to complain about is our models and methods for testing between the alternatives.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Cornelius Hunter: What I mean by "evolution" is no different than what evolutionists mean by "evolution" when they claim it is a fact. If you read the literature you'll see they are referring to the claim that natural laws and processes, and only natural laws and processes, created life and its various species.

    "Natural laws and processes", "created life and its various species" are much too vague to constitute a valid scientific theory. Having read Darwin and more modern literature, biologists propose much more concrete and testable models.

    Cornelius Hunter: By far the most amazing aspect of evolution is not its idea that all things just happened to arise spontaneously but—even more eyebrow raising—its claim that all of this is a scientific fact.

    The most powerful and predictive models in biology have no telic components, and no one has proposed a valid model based on Intelligent Design. The basic claims of the Theory of Evolution, common descent and of adaptative mechanisms are well-established science.

    ReplyDelete
  51. anaxyrus said...

    Concerning contrastive reasoning, there can only be two possibilities in this case: life diverged from common ancestry or it didn't.

    As I understand him, Hunter argues that the evidence is insufficient to conclude that life diverged from common ancestry, or not, thereby declaring your dichotomy false.

    What say you, Professor Hunter?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Pedant:

    As I understand him, Hunter argues that the evidence is insufficient to conclude that life diverged from common ancestry, or not, thereby declaring your dichotomy false.

    What say you, Professor Hunter?


    Whatever he says, the dichotomy is not false. There might be some possible statements where (true/false) would not exhaust all possibilities, but ("life on Earth diverged from universal common ancestry") is not one of them.

    I think you are correct in that he does indeed argue that there is insufficient evidence to evaluate the truth of evolution (here meaning common descent). But that's a different question.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Cornelius Hunter said...

    Zachriel:

    ===
    What do you mean by "evolution"? Common Descent?
    ===

    What I mean by "evolution" is no different than what evolutionists mean by "evolution" when they claim it is a fact. If you read the literature you'll see they are referring to the claim that natural laws and processes, and only natural laws and processes, created life and its various species.


    There's the problem. All this time CH has had his own funny little pet definition of 'evolution' different that the word's usage in the scientific community, and in the rest of the adult world. CH's definition is more kiddy creationist "no one has seen a frog evolve into a horse!" sort of nonsense.

    I'll have to agree with you for once CH. "Evolution" as you define it in your childish ignorant strawman manner certainly isn't a fact.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Cornelius,


    "You are failing to distinguish between an ought and an is."
    All I was doing is pointing out that you consistently misrepresent Sober's views concerning the bad design argument. You have still not admitted that you were mistaken or corrected your posts.

    "In his book Sober argues evolutionists shouldn't use metaphysical premises. He argues you can't compute the probabilities. Sober's opinion doesn't change the reality of what is, which he documents in his paper, which is what I was referencing. The examples he cites, gill slits and tail bones, are classic metaphysical arguments evolutionists use."

    In the paper, Sober uses gill slits and tailbones as examples of traits that are not adaptive, to illustrate their usefulness in determining common ancestry. he is showing that adaptive traits are not useful for demonstrating common ancestry because they could have evolved convergently, while the probability of non-adaptive traits evolving convergently is much lower. How is this metaphysical?

    (concerning the bad design argument, which I said is silly). "Evolutionists continually use it when arguing evolution is a fact. If it were merely silly, dispensable, rhetoric, then it would be easy for you to cite the reference giving the non-silly explanation for why evolution is a fact."

    claiming that the theory of evolution is a fact is by its nature a self-contradictory and silly claim, so I can't help you. the definition you provide for evolution (basically, that no gods or designers ever intervened in life's history) is itself a metaphysical claim, so of course metaphysical arguments are used to back it up. but this is an argument seen in the context of rebutting creationism/ID, as can be seen in your rogue's gallery of quotations in the OP, all of them from anti-creationism texts.

    ReplyDelete
  55. CRDarwin said

    And we can clearly understand these analogies, if species once existed as varieties,
    and thus originated; whereas, these analogies are utterly inexplicable if species are independent creations.

    CRDarwin fancied himself a spin artist. He says he read Malthus for entertainment value. I think the good Parson Malthus taught that the poor should be starved if not killed outright. I don't remember, when Darwin was forced to include a "bibliography" to (the "Historical Sketch" in 3rd edition of) Origin of Species, whether Darwin ever did murmur a word of credit to Malthus. Can you imagine a Creation Science author penning a book called On the Origin of Kinds...and never defining what a Kind is..and never in 6 editions saying what is "the origin of kinds"? That's exactly what CRDarwin got away with (not doing). In all 6 editions of Origin, he never defined species, and (famously) never did say, in Origin, what is the origin of species.

    I like Gertrude Himmelfarb discussion of Darwin and his claims for the eye in her classic. And the review that Richard Owens wrote of Origin is hilarious, with Owen feigning not to understand Darwin's opening (I was much struck with certain facts in the distribution of the inhabitants). Owens fully realized Darwin was feigning astonished discovery there, and Owens did the same. You can always tell which edition of Origin sold at the bookstore each year, by that opening line. As Owens' negative review forced Darwin to retrench and to rework that opening.

    Darwin's evolution was all but discarded by 1900. This used to be openly admitted. But in the last few decades of lionizing him, that is all glossed over and we are told: Darwin and evolution have been a continuous triump since 1859. Instead, after Mendel's genetics became fully known and with the work of others we saw a Second Coming of Darwin in the New Synthesis. By the 1980s, the New Synthesis has become moribund. Whatever the future incarnation of evolutionary theory, we can be sure we will be told, time and again, that we are witnessing the triumph of the genius of Charles Darwin.

    ReplyDelete
  56. anaxyrus:

    ===
    Yes, evolutionary biology relies on contrastive reasoning. So does science generally. It's not an issue.
    ===

    So with a wave of the hand, evolutionists dismiss such arcane conundrums. The fact is, it is not an issue so long as the people using such reasoning stay within its bounds. You cannot make claims beyond your own assumptions. If you contrast X with Y, and find X to be superior, then that is your conclusion (based on the assumptions of your analysis). You cannot then conclude X is a fact without smuggling in unspoken assumptions. This is such obvious, straightforward logic it is remarkable that evolutionists try to obviate it.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Pedant:

    ===
    How dare those evolutionists restrict their notion of fact to natural laws and processes? Perverse liars who dare not admit that they have (metaphysically) ruled out the unobservable and untestable.
    ===

    Such sentiment sounds like scientism or positivism. Yes, there is non scientific pursuits, but true truth really only comes from science. After all, everything else is unobservable and untestable.

    ReplyDelete
  58. geoxus said...

    ===
    You were shown that Sober did not argue against ID from the existence of "bad design". Won't you admit you were wrong?
    ===

    Except I never said that. At least I did not intend to. I did point out that Sober, in the PNAS paper, shows how the argument defeats creationism using the usual metaphysical arguments such as gill slits. I agree with you that Sober does not make these arguments, himself. If I left the impression otherwise, then I take it back.

    ReplyDelete
  59. nanobot74:

    ===
    In the paper, Sober uses gill slits and tailbones as examples of traits that are not adaptive, to illustrate their usefulness in determining common ancestry. he is showing that adaptive traits are not useful for demonstrating common ancestry because they could have evolved convergently, while the probability of non-adaptive traits evolving convergently is much lower. How is this metaphysical?
    ===

    There are two entry points for the metaphysics. One, at the evaluation of the probability of the evidence on separate ancestry. Two, in the assumption that CA and SA represent all possible explanations. Is it obvious now to you?

    ===
    claiming that the theory of evolution is a fact is by its nature a self-contradictory and silly claim, so I can't help you. the definition you provide for evolution (basically, that no gods or designers ever intervened in life's history) is itself a metaphysical claim, so of course metaphysical arguments are used to back it up.
    ===

    No, a hypothesis that god did X, Y or Z is, itself, not metaphysical. It's just a hypothesis. Furthermore, I'm afraid your paraphrase "no gods or designers ever intervened in life's history" isn't quite right. I said evolution = life and the species arose via natural laws and processes. That does not rule out divine action, it just says the divine action is strictly via natural law (what theologians refer to as secondary causes). I don't think evolutionist's hypothesis is particularly metaphysical.

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  60. Pedant:

    ===
    I think that Dr Hunter is referring to his claim that you can't employ contrastive reasoning if you don't know all possible alternative hypotheses. And you can't claim to know all possible hypotheses, because a hypothesis that you haven't thought of may well be possible.
    ===

    Good summary, but it is not that you cannot use contrastive reasoning so much as you need to understand the limitations.

    ===
    In short, you don't know what you don't know. But that's the history of science, which plays with the cards in the deck available at any point in time. And that's the history of any human endeavor.
    ===

    Which is why scientists don't claim that unlikely ideas are actually facts merely because an opposing idea is even worse off.

    ReplyDelete
  61. second opinion:

    ===
    Maybe it is time to collect the metphysical arguments in support of the ToE. I could so far identify three:
    1) God would not interfere in nature on a regular basis.
    2) Bad design.
    3) Design of evil.

    Did I miss something? It would be nice if somebody could complete the list.
    ===

    Take a look at this figure:

    http://www.darwinspredictions.com/Figure15.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  62. anaxyrus:

    ===
    Concerning contrastive reasoning, there can only be two possibilities in this case: life diverged from common ancestry or it didn't.
    ===

    But once again this evolutionary reasoning is meaningless. You are creating proofs out of think air. In this case, you have equivocation on both sides. On the pro side, evolution or CA covers a wide spectrum. So evolutionists claim evolution is a fact because some alleles changes frequency. Great, some moths changed color so life arose in a warm little pond, er somewhere, and then evolved spontaneously into the millions of species and designs we find.

    On the con side, evolutionists make up some metaphysical rebuke of SA, and again conclude evolution is a fact. Great, God wouldn't create parasites so evolution must be true.

    Unbelievably, these are actually are evolutionary arguments for why it is a fact.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Zachriel:

    ===
    "Natural laws and processes", "created life and its various species" are much too vague to constitute a valid scientific theory. Having read Darwin and more modern literature, biologists propose much more concrete and testable models.
    ===

    Sure, evolutionists propose all kinds of explanations and models within evolutionary theory. But they can be forfeited without harming evolution.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Ya know CH, you wouldn't come across as such a disingenuous hypocritical windbag if you'd try discussing actual evolutionary theory for once instead of that childish cartoon version you keep trotting out.

    Just sayin'.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Pedant:

    ===
    As I understand him, Hunter argues that the evidence is insufficient to conclude that life diverged from common ancestry, or not, thereby declaring your dichotomy false.

    What say you, Professor Hunter?
    ===

    There is evidence in favor of evolution and common descent, but the fact is there are substantial scientific problems with evolution and common descent. Yet evolutionists say all the evidence supports evolution. There is a monumental gap between their claims and reality.

    For many people this is hard to believe. But there it is, evolutionists make their claims over and over.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Thorton:

    ===
    Ya know CH, you wouldn't come across as such a disingenuous hypocritical windbag if you'd try discussing actual evolutionary theory for once instead of that childish cartoon version you keep trotting out.
    ===

    Were you much struck? It is amazing how evolutionists respond when you present them with their own claims. They are their own judge.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Cornelius Hunter:

    "Sure, evolutionists propose all kinds of explanations and models within evolutionary theory. But they can be forfeited without harming evolution."
    ===

    This goes back to your term used earlier - the "Scientism" worldview, especially with the selfpromoting intellect your dealing with here. The view here is that scientism is their version of the "Alpha and Omega" beginning and end. Any knowledge outside of scientism's text books isn't worth knowing. This is where ideology and worldview reveal their true ugly nature.

    This is also a parroting of Carl Sagan's "Science is a ever self-correcting process". It's almost identical to the imaginative chemical "self-replicating" magic process they've been insisting here lately that begat all life. This same philosophical mysteriousness is what evolves scientism's thinking to keep Darwinian religion alive as the fittest survivor as mankind's greatest ever Dogmas. But when the evidence leads to the dogmas possible downfall, just throw in a hint of MAYA(All is Illusion) into the discussion and the doctrine is saved once again. Seriously, the cards are stacked in their favour to where they just can't lose.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Zach:

    "It meets the scientific definition.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution"
    ===

    Do I hear bias ??? While wiki can have some interesting facts and information found within it's pages, surely you don't expect me to believe in the ideological slant from it's agenda driven members over there on this particular dogma ???

    How much UP can an upchuck chuck if an upchuck could chuck UP ???

    ReplyDelete
  69. Zachriel:

    "How many legs does a dog have if you call a tail a leg?"
    ===

    We've been over and over your love affair with word/term games before. Save these for the Fundies who you and the other gang members use for a perverted sort of entertainment on those other forums. The bait doesn't work here.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Cornelius wrote: There is evidence in favor of evolution and common descent, but the fact is there are substantial scientific problems with evolution and common descent.

    Let's see what those scientific problems are. What are your specific objections to common descent?

    ReplyDelete
  71. Cornelius Hunter: So evolutionists claim evolution is a fact because some alleles changes frequency.

    This event is certainly an example of evolution, has been observed, and is inevitable given the existence of mutations and inequality in reproductive outcomes.

    Great, some moths changed color so life arose in a warm little pond, er somewhere, and then evolved spontaneously into the millions of species and designs we find.

    These are the kinds of mischaracterizations you would expect from Kent Hovind. That evolution happens before our eyes, through processes and at rates that, in conjunction with known historical abiotic environmental change, are sufficient to produce the history of life on Earth, is but one of the lines of evidence that causes us to accept common descent. And again, you are conflating common ancestry and diversification from that ancestry with biogenesis. Our understanding of biogenesis is not at the level of our understanding of evolution post-LUCA.

    It's fair to say that the life we see on Earth arose somewhere at some point in time. Earth has an abiotic history, as best we can tell, of around 700 million years. Somewhere in that interval, life arose on Earth or was introduced from elsewhere. It's an issue of ongoing research, and headway has been made; it might or might not be resolved in our life time.

    We are limited to working with the evidence we have on hand. Sometimes a small sampling of evidence gives us a false impression that is later overturned by a larger sample. We have a huge sample of genetics and morphology supportive of common descent that gets stronger (not weaker) over time as the tree of life becomes better resolved.

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  72. Cornelius,

    In re: the metaphysics in tests of common ancestry, you wrote:

    "There are two entry points for the metaphysics. One, at the evaluation of the probability of the evidence on separate ancestry. Two, in the assumption that CA and SA represent all possible explanations. Is it obvious now to you?"

    Well, yes and no. For point one, given that supernatural hypotheses for SA have been proposed, the scientist evaluating CA vs. SA has two choices: either test those hypotheses or don't (of course, there could be other choices, so I don't want to say it is a fact that there are two choices). As you, and Sober, Paul Nelson and others before you, have pointed out, to test those hypotheses involves all kinds of metaphysical reasoning about how the designer would design, etc. So it seems best to just ignore them altogether. But of course then the scientist falls prey to your and others' claim that he is excluding hypotheses for metaphysical reasons, and is constraining himself from finding the Real Truth. So it's a bit damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. For many reasons, including that science does not claim to be finding the Real Truth, excluding designer hypotheses seems the best option. For your point two, I agree in principle that there could be more options than common and separate ancestry, although other than some mix of the two I can't imagine what they may be. However, until those options are crystallized from the ether, we can't concern ourselves too much with them as scientists because they are unknown and therefore untestable.

    If these really are your objections to tests of CA, then you should have highly praised Theobald's 2010 paper in Nature (A formal test of the theory of universal common descent). he does not consider designer hypotheses, minimizing those metaphysics, and tests multiple mixtures of CA and SA. Furthermore (and this should have drawn leaps of joy from you), he never says that CA is a fact, only that it is thousands of time more likely than the 2nd best alternative. Finally, the methods he used left the door open to any new hypothesis being inserted and tested with all the others at any time, so unconsidered alternatives can be considered when they become considerable. Instead you posted several largely incoherent criticisms and wound up having to retract one after being corrected by the author himself. Go figure.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Cornelius,

    In ref to the metaphysics in tests of common ancestry, you wrote:

    "There are two entry points for the metaphysics. One, at the evaluation of the probability of the evidence on separate ancestry. Two, in the assumption that CA and SA represent all possible explanations. Is it obvious now to you?"

    Well, yes and no. For point one, given that supernatural hypotheses for SA have been proposed, the scientist evaluating CA vs. SA has two choices: either test those hypotheses or don't (of course, there could be other choices, so I don't want to say it is a fact that there are two choices). As you, and Sober, Paul Nelson and others before you, have pointed out, to test those hypotheses involves all kinds of metaphysical reasoning about how the designer would design, etc. So it seems best to just ignore them altogether. But of course then the scientist falls prey to your and others' claim that he is excluding hypotheses for metaphysical reasons, and is constraining himself from finding the Real Truth. So it's a bit damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. For many reasons, including that science does not claim to be finding the Real Truth, excluding designer hypotheses seems the best option. For your point two, I agree in principle that there could be more options than common and separate ancestry, although other than some mix of the two I can't imagine what they may be. However, until those options are crystallized from the ether, we can't concern ourselves too much with them as scientists because they are unknown and therefore untestable. (cont.)

    ReplyDelete
  74. (cont.)
    Cornelius,

    If these really are your objections to tests of CA, then you should have highly praised Theobald's 2010 paper in Nature (A formal test of the theory of universal common descent). he does not consider designer hypotheses, minimizing those metaphysics, and tests multiple mixtures of CA and SA. Furthermore (and this should have drawn leaps of joy from you), he never says that CA is a fact, only that it is thousands of time more likely than the 2nd best alternative. Finally, the methods he used left the door open to any new hypothesis being inserted and tested with all the others at any time, so unconsidered alternatives can be considered when they become considerable. Instead you posted several largely incoherent criticisms and wound up having to retract one after being corrected by the author himself. Go figure.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Excuse me Eocene, but do you truly think that evolution should mean whatever you want it to mean, rather than what scientists have used it to mean?

    Seems like you just sprout angry accusations and, unless you are expecting everybody to know some mysterious background that I ignore, heavily charged statements. I note that it would take me forever to try and answer what you say until many things were cleared up. But at the very least it seems like you hold that whatever you define that evolution *is*, we should just accept your definition and shut up.

    That is how you come across. What am I missing? Do you truly want some answer?

    Let me exemplify. Above I was referring to you thinking that your definition of evolution is The Definition. There is another one that just makes my mind twist and twist and not finding what you mean. The bacterial evolution towards antibiotic resistance. It is evolution clear cut. No way around. For once, bacteria without resistance die. Resistant ones grow. I know, my life was saved by antibiotics many many years ago. Thus, those bacteria died. The mechanism is thus one of evolution. Non-resistant bacteria die, resistant ones survive and reproduce, since there are so many, now other non-resistant ones can acquire the resistance by horizontal gene transfer. But you call that "engineered." You say:

    "but blind undirected forces with no purpose whatsoever guiding life is never observed in any of this"

    There seems to be a bit of many levels of misconception there. Do you mean that it will not be evolution unless there is no direction? As in (1) "antibiotics in the environment are a direction"? Or else (2) "the designer is guiding the bacteria towards resistance"? Or do you mean (3) "evolution is just random stuff running randomly from one side to the other"? (If you have something else in mind, let me know.)

    If the first, then that is certainly evolution. An environment select for organisms carrying traits that allow such organisms to grow. Such growth results in such organisms spreading. Then we have more telling evolution in such things. If we re-engineer penicillin, we start finding variants of the penicillinase (the protein providing resistance to penicillin) that now digest the new thing. If we trace the differences in sequence, we find them to be derived from the older penicillinases by mutation. Again, evolution.

    So? What is exactly the problem with this? Please not just angry sentences, tell me the logic why this is not evolution (I don't care if you call it micro).

    ReplyDelete
  76. excuse the double posts.
    Cornelius,
    "No, a hypothesis that god did X, Y or Z is, itself, not metaphysical."

    Ok, then how does one do a non-metaphysical test of such a hypothesis? it seems to me you can either speculate on the nature of the designer (highly metaphysical) or try to eliminate all potential natural causation. the latter seems like a heavy reliance on the very contrastive reasoning that you object to, although i guess as long as someone doing this kind of research never said "it is a fact that god did x" you'd be cool with it.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Cornelius,

    How dishonest you have to be if I try and explain to you your misunderstanding, yet you go and swim in that same B.S. once again? Man, you are a cartoon of a creationist.

    Darwin: "And we can clearly understand these analogies, if species once existed as varieties, and thus originated; whereas, these analogies are utterly inexplicable if species are independent creations."

    Clear cut Cornelius. He does not mean that independent creations can't do that, but that independent creations don't EXPLAIN that. I told you. It is a natural ("natural" as in "it easily follows") outcome of divergence. Not a natural outcome of independent creation. Thus, independent creation does not explain it. Can do it, but does not explain it. Can do it, but does not explain it. Can do it, but does not explain it. Can do it, but does not explain it. Can do it, but does not explain it. Can do it, but does not explain it ...

    Misguided religion drives your pseudoscience, and it matters.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Cornelius:

    Well, what is your opinion? If you or someone argued that X must be a fact, even though it is bad science, because Y is so unlikely. Do think that is scientific reasoning? And then, on top of that, Y is said to be unlikely for religious reasons. Do think that is scientific reasoning? And then, on top of that, Y is said to be not allowed in science anyway. Do think that is scientific reasoning?

    Here is my opinion:

    Observation o has a higher likelihood under hypothesis X than under any other proposed hypotheses.

    Person D, who supports X, says that X has a higher likelihood than Y.

    Y is not a scientific hypothesis and so it is meaningless to compare it to X.

    Person D was wrong to compare X to Y.

    Along comes Person CorneliusHunter and claims that X is religious because Person D was wrong about something.

    Since that something was irrelevant when assessing the evidence for or against X, Person CorneliusHunter is engaging in sophistry.

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  79. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  80. Cornelius wrote:

    Evolution is, they say, beyond any shadow of a doubt, as certain as gravity, nay even more certain. This claim is so obviously false that it begs the question: what are evolutionists thinking?

    You've yet again failed to differentiate between the phenomena attributed to gravity (falling apples and moving planets) and the theory that explains that phenomena (the curvature of space time).

    Given that we having pointed this out to you time and time again, exactly what do you expect us to conclude from your continued ambiguity?

    Should we conclude you're equivocating, as you appear to do when you make the vague claim that evolution is unlikely? Should we conclude you're using your own private definition of "good science", just as you admitted to in regards to empiricism and rationalism? Or should we conclude you're a naive empiricist who can't tell the difference?

    However, we've already brought these issues to your attention as well. And we've done so repeatedly - which leaves us with a disingenuous presentation specifically crafted for the choir that reads your blog.

    So, again, I'll ask, how exactly do you conclude gravitational theory represents "good science," while evolution does not?

    If gravitational theory doesn't represent good science either, then why would comparing it to evolutionary theory a mistake? This would be hand waving.

    And if you're implicitly referring to the empirically observed phenomena we attribute to gravity, then you're equivocating by implicitly comparing it to the theory of evolution rather than the observed phenomena it explains.

    Again, exactly what do you expect us to conclude this sort of continued ambiguity?

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  81. Negative Entropy:

    "Excuse me Eocene, but do you truly think that evolution should mean whatever you want it to mean, rather than what scientists have used it to mean?"
    ===

    It should mean what it was originally intended to mean from it's very origin. The average person(poor slob) on the street understands a general definition of evolution to be nothing more than (no God/Intelligence allowed) a theory that all the living forms(species of plants, fish, mammals, birds, etc, etc, etc) on the the Earth have arisen from a single source(one celled common ancestor) which itself came from an inorganic non-living source manipulated by accident for no ryheme or reason by nothing more than physics and chemicals. From that point on the theory is a gradual process by which the present diversity of plant and animal life morphs from the earliest and most primitive organisms by tiny incremental changes of random mutations guided by natural selection for the past countless millions of years.

    The problem is the foundation is never once laid or dealt with and when you press the evolutionist for it you get the bait and switch tactic of definition shell gaming and discussion becomes useless. The examples Cornelius has presented of the sophisticated micro-world and their clearly complex behavior just don't behave the way the unintelligence Gang's demands for it's no purpose no goals allowed dogma. Does that make it simple enough ???

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  82. Scott said, "You've yet again failed to differentiate between the phenomena attributed to gravity (falling apples and moving planets) and the theory that explains that phenomena (the curvature of space time). "

    Clear difference...

    1. We directly observe and measure the effects of gravity (from falling apples to galaxies) and then develop theories to explain it.

    2. We can not directly observe and measure molecules evolving into men. Moths changing colors and such is not directly observing the former.

    That's the difference.

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  83. Negative Entropy:

    "Seems like you just sprout angry accusations and, unless you are expecting everybody to know some mysterious background that I ignore, heavily charged statements."
    ===

    Well lately this comes from an incident that happened a few days back when my account here was hijacked by some idiot or collective smart*ssed group of disingenuous private-messaging individual idiots(and they know who they are) who hacked and stole my email and google posting account here and replaced the username I chose specifically for this site (Eocene) with the name inside my private details of my account. This email provider help me get it back fortunately. They admitted their system detected the hacker and they are presently investigating the creep/s IP address.

    Now it seems that One would be prepared when coming into a combat setting such as this and appreciate the usual low caliber degraded quality of the majority in such settings. As it turned out I foreknew exactly the type of decadent cowards that I'd be dealing with here and this email account is specifically a junk account I made up to use for no other purpose than Cornelius's blog and the internal account details are bogus as well. I had an experience back in 2007 where my oldest original email was well known and several disturbed cowards loaded my email with viruses, porno, spam and every type of filth/foul content you can imagine. I had to disolve that email I had for well over a decade and never let my personal email out since, though I do have at least 20+ for various purposes. So such experiences tend to sour ones attitude a bit especially when your prophetic intuition/suspicions actually come to life. I don't have time for the moment, but I'll come back and address some of those other points.

    Have a good weekend. *wink*

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  84. Neal -

    "We can not directly observe and measure molecules evolving into men. Moths changing colors and such is not directly observing the former."

    You are incorrect.

    The evolution of the White- and Black-bodied Peppered Moth (the example to which I presume you refer) IS an example of an observation of natural selection in action.

    You appear to believe there is a fundamental difference between microevolution and macroevolution. In reality, there simply is not. They are both evolution, but on different scales. The mechanisms of one are the mechanisms of the other. If one works, so to does the other.

    Unles you can propose any good REASON why we should believe otherwise?

    And no, 'we haven't witnessed macroevolution' doesn't cut it, I'm afraid, because it is an unreasonable request. You are demanding the sort of evidence which takes thousands, if not millions of years of direct observation to acquire. How can you possibly consider this a reasonable request?

    All we can observe of macroevolution is it on a small time-scale - which is microevolution. Which has been amply observed and documented many times.

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  85. Ritchie said, "You appear to believe there is a fundamental difference between microevolution and macroevolution. In reality, there simply is not. They are both evolution, but on different scales. ... Unles you can propose any good REASON why we should believe otherwise?"

    Darwin couldn't have said it better.

    The fact is you have to "believe" that there is no difference. You don't have to believe that an apple falls to the ground, you can observe it.

    That's the difference.

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  86. The white pepper moths never actually became extinct. The relative proportions of white and black pepper moths changed. That is all. It could be argued that the pepper moth actually refutes natural selection because white pepper moths survived.

    And I'm not sure you can so easily extrapolate macro from micro evolution until we can determine things like how many mutations it takes to actually change from one species to another. If it only takes one mutation to chnage the color of a pepper moth, and a million mutations to change from one species to another, then it miht be a problem. I know that I'm just making up numbers, but I think the point still stands.

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  87. natschuster said:
    ====
    It could be argued that the pepper moth actually refutes natural selection because white pepper moths survived.
    ====

    No, all you can say is that the selective pressure was not strong and sustained enough (+ possible drift effects) to completely eliminate white moths.

    ====
    And I'm not sure you can so easily extrapolate macro from micro evolution until we can determine things like how many mutations it takes to actually change from one species to another
    ====

    That is very naïve. For starters, there is no universally accepted species concept. And if there was one, there would be no such thing as a mutation number threshold. That would make no biological sense. It is not a matter of how many mutations, but which mutations in which genes, and how fixed they become in the populations.

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  88. Cornelius in the comments of this post:
    ====
    Except I never said that [Sober argued against ID from the existence of "bad design"]. At least I did not intend to. I did point out that Sober, in the PNAS paper, shows how the argument defeats creationism using the usual metaphysical arguments such as gill slits. I agree with you that Sober does not make these arguments, himself. If I left the impression otherwise, then I take it back.
    ====

    Cornelius in his previous post:
    =====
    As Elliot Sober has observed, Darwin’s Principle (as Sober referred to it) is that biological inefficiencies and bad designs are powerful evidence for the fact of evolution because they show how unlikely are the creation or design alternatives.
    ====

    1. Again, that is no Darwin's Principle. This is what Sober wrote in his paper:
    ====
    Darwin’s Principle. Adaptive similarities provide almost no evidence for common ancestry while similarities that are useless or deleterious provide strong evidence for common ancestry.
    ====
    (my emphasis)
    You presented a straw man.

    2. There you explicitly say that Sober observed that "bad design" favours evolution because they show creationist alternatives unlikely. If you did not intend to say that, well, that was really badly written. Perhaps you are also an evolutionist and we have misunderstood you all along!

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  89. Neal -

    "The fact is you have to "believe" that there is no difference. You don't have to believe that an apple falls to the ground, you can observe it."

    Nonsense. There is no such belief required. Macroevolution is evolution via exactly the same mechanisms as microevolution. This is not a matter of belief, nor of opinion. It is a matter of fact.

    A fact you simply seem to be unaware of.

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  90. (cont'd)
    3. If one replaces your false Darwin's Principle with the true Darwin's Principle in your previous post, it becomes a non-sequitur. Your last post was about arguing from the existence of "bad design". Darwin's Principle does not argue for evolution, it rather tell where to find valid evidence for common ancestry (in similarity patterns present in "badly designed" features, not from the existence of the features). Do you get the difference? There was no reason for mentioning Darwin's Principle in that post. It has nothing to do with the arguments from "bad design".

    4. There is no point discussing with you anything any further when you bring up your "metaphysics" folderol.

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  91. P.S: In my comment on your previous post, I noted the page numbers of a book, but it seems like I deleted the paragraph where I wrote its name. That was Sober's 2008 Evidence and evolution--The logic behind the science

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  92. nat -

    "The white pepper moths never actually became extinct. The relative proportions of white and black pepper moths changed. That is all. It could be argued that the pepper moth actually refutes natural selection because white pepper moths survived."

    No it does not refute natural selction. White Peppered moths have become common again as environmental standards have cleaned up the pollution which darkened the tree bark. While there was plenty of pollution (and thus, dfark tree trunks), white moth numbers plummeted. It is not a point against ToE if just because they never crashed so low as to hit actual extinction.

    "And I'm not sure you can so easily extrapolate macro from micro evolution until we can determine things like how many mutations it takes to actually change from one species to another."

    The evolution of one species into two falls under microevolution. We have recorded one species becoming two many times.

    For an example, go to youtube and search for Salamander's Tale.

    And if this process can make two sub-species from one species (as we have seen it can) and can make two species from one (as we have seen it can), why not two genera from one, or two families from one, or two orders from one...? I'm not actually sure where the threshhold is between microevolution and macroevolution. But the point is that it works on the lowest level. Why not further up?

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  93. oleg:

    ===
    Let's see what those scientific problems are. What are your specific objections to common descent?
    ===

    Well it depends on what you mean by common descent. Even many IDs and creationists accept certain types of common descent, but I suspect you don't mean that. If you mean common descent via evolution, then you could look at the many failed predictions. For that you can look here:

    http://www.darwinspredictions.com/

    Another way is by the many failed explanations and lack of scientific evidence for the proposed evolutionary creations. This would be a long list. One item we discussed recently is the creation of a typical protein.

    The typical evolutionary response to the tremendous scientific problems with their idea is to argue that the problems do not falsify evolution. Their metaphysics leads them to the position that evolution is a fact. This presents a very high burden of proof for science. No matter that there are monumental problems, a long trail of false predictions, etc. The only way for science to over turn evolution would be some sort of absolute proof that evolution is impossible. It would be hard to imagine better evidence against the theory, but given its flexibility, it is true that the evidence does not absolutely falsify it. So evolutionists seem to take this as sanctioning the fact claim.

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  94. anaxyrus:

    ===
    "Great, some moths changed color so life arose in a warm little pond, er somewhere, and then evolved spontaneously into the millions of species and designs we find."

    These are the kinds of mischaracterizations you would expect from Kent Hovind.
    ===

    No, I'm afraid that is not a mischaracterization. Evolutionists sometimes suggest such minor change as sufficient evidence for all of evolution.

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  95. anaxyrus:

    ===
    That evolution happens before our eyes, through processes and at rates that, in conjunction with known historical abiotic environmental change, are sufficient to produce the history of life on Earth, is but one of the lines of evidence that causes us to accept common descent.
    ===

    Sufficient to produce the history of life on Earth? Evolutionists in their honest moments admit this is false. This neo Darwinist view does not enjoy the evidential support evolutionists once claimed. It is not clear that alleles changing frequencies + time = millions of species with all kinds of new designs. Evolutionists cannot even explain how a single new protein could arise.

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  96. Negative Entropy:

    ===
    Misguided religion drives your pseudoscience, and it matters.
    ===

    I've asked you to explain what misguided religion and what pseudoscience you are referring to, and how the former drives the latter. But you seem to be ignoring the question.

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  97. Geoxus:

    ===
    You presented a straw man.
    ===

    How so?

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  98. Cornelius,
    Conflating ideas seems to be a big hobby of yours. you wrote in response to Oleg "If you mean common descent via evolution.." and then a long bit about perceived problems with the mechanisms of evolution. common descent is a pattern, independent of mechanism, as has been pointed out to you many times before. in fact, in one of your more lucid moments, you agreed that common descent of diatoms was a compelling hypothesis. why is it compelling and why is common descent of vertebrates, which is demonstrated using the same types of data, not? this is around the 10th or so time this question has been asked.

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  99. Cornelius wrote: Well it depends on what you mean by common descent. Even many IDs and creationists accept certain types of common descent, but I suspect you don't mean that. If you mean common descent via evolution, then you could look at the many failed predictions.

    Umm, common descent is common descent. You know, the tree of life. DO you accept it or not? That isn't a trick question, unless you want to make it so.

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  100. Cornelius -

    Seriously, doesn't it ever trouble you that you think you know more about science than actual scientists do?

    You're like the little boy who insisted all clocks in town but his were wrong - and it turns out he doesn't really understand much about clocks anyway.

    I mean I will grant it's not conclusive. But when you're telling scientists (pretty much all of them) that you think you know better about their own field of expertise, that's usually a pretty big hint that you're the one who's got it wrong.

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  101. Hunter:

    Evolutionists cannot even explain how a single new protein could arise.

    Arise? Spontaneously? Out of the Primordial Soup?

    What are you asking for, a movie? (Nobody was there to film it, as far as we know.)

    Why is it necessary for science to recreate the origin of life in order to be credible amount the subsequent history of life? What does that have to do with the Theory of Evolution?

    Happy New Year!

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  102. Correction:

    Why is it necessary for science to recreate the origin of life in order to be credible about the subsequent history of life?

    And what, indeed, does that have to do with the Theory of Evolution? (Praised be its name!)

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  103. Ritchie:

    I mean I will grant it's not conclusive. But when you're telling scientists (pretty much all of them) that you think you know better about their own field of expertise, that's usually a pretty big hint that you're the one who's got it wrong.

    You don't seem to understand that Professor Cornelius Hunter is a pioneer in anti-evolution research. It doesn't matter that he's wrong - he's original. Unlike Intelligent Design Creationists he doesn't argue that Design is correct because evolution is incorrect. He argues only that evolution is incorrect, and coyly offers no alternative . That kind of intellectual asceticism is exemplary. Hunter stands alone on his Peak in Darien.

    And let's not forget the careful documentation of religious and metaphysical presuppositions that Hunter has uncovered in evolutionary thought. Going back well before Hume and Paley. Indeed, before Kant and Spinoza and even William of Ockham. He may soon uncover such presuppositions in the writings of the Milesian school. In the meantime, read Science's Blind Spot.

    So, back off Buster... and have a Happy New Year!

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  104. Hi, just wanted to wish you all a very happy new year!!
    I hope it is good for all of you :)

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  105. oleg:

    ===
    Umm, common descent is common descent. You know, the tree of life. DO you accept it or not? That isn't a trick question, unless you want to make it so.
    ===

    OK, the tree of life. That has been falsified many times over. There are mismatches at all levels. Only a precommittment to CD could overlook these many contradictions.

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  106. Geoxus wrote:

    Cornelius in the comments of this post:
    ====
    Except I never said that [Sober argued against ID from the existence of "bad design"]. At least I did not intend to. I did point out that Sober, in the PNAS paper, shows how the argument defeats creationism using the usual metaphysical arguments such as gill slits. I agree with you that Sober does not make these arguments, himself. If I left the impression otherwise, then I take it back.
    ====

    Cornelius in his previous post:
    =====
    As Elliot Sober has observed, Darwin’s Principle (as Sober referred to it) is that biological inefficiencies and bad designs are powerful evidence for the fact of evolution because they show how unlikely are the creation or design alternatives.



    It's not the first time Cornelius says that Sober has made this claim. From June 26th, 2009:

    But Sober mysteriously fails to explain the obvious. The elephant in the room is ignored as Sober moves on to an analogy about term papers. The reason the denominator is so small is that a religious premise about divine intent was smuggled in. The reason those creationist concerns about insuperable boundaries do not hold is because common ancestry is likely. And common ancestry is likely because nature's designs given separate ancestry is unlikely. And those designs given separate ancestry are unlikely because god would not have given us our "useless" tailbones.

    Is Cornelius being disingenious?

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  107. It could be argued that the pepper moth actually refutes natural selection because white pepper moths survived.

    I think we have a genuine "then why are there still monkeys" type argument here. If the black moths evolved from the white ones, then why are there still white moths?

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  108. Cornelius wrote: OK, the tree of life. That has been falsified many times over. There are mismatches at all le