Saturday, August 21, 2010

The Gene Myth

Biological variation is, in part, transmitted from parent to progeny. Tall individuals tend to have tall offspring, fast individuals tend to have fast offspring, and so forth. This transmission process is key to the action of natural selection. Those trait variations that are successful in transmitting themselves to the next generation, by definition, survived while those that failed would disappear from the population. So long as traits are transmitted, evolutionists argue that natural selection is inevitable.

In other words, whatever it is that determines your traits is also transmitted to your offspring. Therefore, if you have evolutionarily successful traits then you will have more offspring, and they will receive your successful traits.

But how are the traits defined and transmitted? Darwin didn’t quite know how but in the twentieth century it seemed obvious—via the genes. According to the merger of modern genetics and evolution, it was all in the genes. They determined your traits and they were passed on to your offspring. This view fit evolutionary theory and was quickly accepted as an unquestionable scientific fact.

There is only one problem: it is false.

The fact that our genes are practically identical with the chimpanzees genes should have been a sign to evolutionists that their gene-centric view was problematic. How could the chimp and human be so different if their genes are so similar? Nonetheless, evolutionists proclaimed the great similarity as evidence that there must be an evolutionary relationship between humans and chimps.

In fact the biological evidence is clear: genes are only part of a far more complicated story than what evolution envisioned. As Stuart Newman explains:

Genes, which are composed of DNA, directly specify the sequences of RNA molecules and indirectly, the amino acid sequences of proteins. Before there were multicellular forms, single-celled organisms evolved for as much as two billion years driven, in part, by genetic change, as well as by establishment of persistent symbiotic relationships among simpler cells. During this entire period no cellular structure or function was specified exclusively by a cell’s genes. The protein and RNA molecules produced by cells associate with each other in a context-dependent fashion or, in many cases, catalyze chemical reactions (generating lipids, polysaccharides and other molecules), whose rates depend on the temperature and composition of the external environment. So the population of molecules inside the cell can vary extensively even if the genes do not.

It was long believed that a protein molecule’s three-dimensional shape, on which its function depends, is uniquely determined by its amino acid sequence. But we now know that this is not always true—the rate at which a protein is synthesized, which depends on factors internal and external to the cell, affects the order in which its different portions fold. So even with the same sequence a given protein can have different shapes and functions. Furthermore, many proteins have no intrinsic shape, taking on different roles in different molecular contexts. So even though genes specify protein sequences they have only a tenuous influence over their functions.

The deployment of information in the genes, moreover, is itself dependent on the presence of certain RNA and protein molecules in the cell. Since, as described above, the composition of the cell’s interior and the activity of many of its proteins depend on more than just the genes, the portion of the genes’ information content that is actually used by the cell is determined, in part, by non-genetic factors. So, to reiterate, the genes do not uniquely determine what is in the cell, but what is in the cell determines how the genes get used. Only if the pie were to rise up, take hold of the recipe book and rewrite the instructions for its own production, would this popular analogy for the role of genes be pertinent.

As Newman explains, the gene is nothing close to how evolution envisioned it. The gene myth is yet another example of evolution’s failed expectations. It seems that inevitably evolution’s interpretations turn out to be wrong as it has produced a steady stream of false predictions. Evolution is certainly the best counter indicator in the life sciences.

151 comments:

  1. Cornelius:

    "As Newman explains, the gene is nothing close to how evolution envisioned it. The gene myth is yet another example of evolution’s failed expectations."

    Hey, I have a great idea for an experiment to test these claims. Let's transplant the genome of species A in a cell of species B and see whether the resulting individuals will resemble species A, species B, or something else. If you are correct, then the result should not look like the genome donor species A, right?

    Too bad such an experiment hasn't been done yet. Or has it? Why, yes indeed it has! and it shows that the species does look like the genome donor, thus falsifying your claims.

    Abstract:
    "As a step toward propagation of synthetic genomes, we completely replaced the genome of a bacterial cell with one from another species by transplanting a whole genome as naked DNA. Intact genomic DNA from Mycoplasma mycoides large colony (LC), virtually free of protein, was transplanted into Mycoplasma capricolum cells by polyethylene glycol–mediated transformation. Cells selected for tetracycline resistance, carried by the M. mycoides LC chromosome, contain the complete donor genome and are free of detectable recipient genomic sequences. These cells that result from genome transplantation are phenotypically identical to the M. mycoides LC donor strain as judged by several criteria."

    ReplyDelete
  2. The fact that our genes are practically identical with the chimpanzees genes should have been a sign to evolutionists that their gene-centric view was problematic. How could the chimp and human be so different if their genes are so similar? Nonetheless, evolutionists proclaimed the great similarity as evidence that there must be an evolutionary relationship between humans and chimps.

    Thank you for giving me something to chuckle about this AM. Scraping the bottom of the barrel of incredulity, are we?

    Let me ask you, how could the chimp and human be so similar if their genes are so similar? Or would that be a silly question?

    ReplyDelete
  3. troy,
    Ironically, pertaining to the Human Genome Project, it was Craig Venter himself who said science has “learned nothing from the genome other than probabilities.”
    and that as far as medical benefits is concerned, he called it useless information. Fortune magazine even call it “the great DNA letdown”.

    Epigenetics suggests how much context matters, and reminds us that the mere code of our genetic sequence cannot explain who we are and who we will become.

    Personally, I think there's more than meets the eye and I agree with Adam Keiper that we should take the exciting findings of epigenetics as an invitation to better understand the peculiar kind of creature we are — recalling that the answers to the deepest questions about being human lie not in our genes but in ourselves.

    http://www.periscopepost.com/2010/08/weve-learned-nothing-from-the-human-genome-yet/

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/242777/human-genome-and-human-being-adam-keiper

    ReplyDelete
  4. Espagnat: Epigenetics suggests how much context matters, and reminds us that the mere code of our genetic sequence cannot explain who we are and who we will become.

    Studies of heritable epigenetic factors across generations tend to show the influence of acquired traits waning over the course of just a few generations. In organism development, the most critical aspect of environment is that provided by the mother, whether that is the uterus, the egg, or the cell itself in the unicellular case described above. Ultimately, the most important determinant of that environment is the maternal genome (unless we introduce hazardous externally sourced chemicals). Venter's experiment showed that while intracellular chemical factors can influence daughter cell morphology, species-level genetic differences enforce chemical changes that over several generations yield a cell indistinguishable from the genetic donor species.

    This experiment trumps the wishful thinking of political journalists.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Cornelius Hunter: Darwin’s argument was circular, but it was foundational to his theory of evolution.

    It's not circular, but a proposed hypothesis. From the hypothesis, Darwin deduced empirical implications, compared them to the available evidence, and proposed new areas of investigation. A century-and-a-half later, the hypothesis is still bearing fruit.

    Cornelius Hunter: How could the chimp and human be so different if their genes are so similar?

    Um, humans and chimpanzees are very similar, just elaborated deuterostomes — tubes with appendages for stuffing food into one end. Microevolution. But there is obviously more to it than a simplistic and naïve gene-centric view.

    ReplyDelete
  6. John said:
    This experiment trumps the wishful thinking of political journalists.

    It's not just journalists who are optimistic about epigenetics. The entire science community is excited about epigenetics. Research experts in the epigenetic field from Epigentek have developed a new, breakthrough approach for the identification of the "sixth DNA base".
    The discovery of a new nucleotide may make biologists rethink their approaches to investigating DNA methylation.


    www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090416144639.htm
    http://www.genomeweb.com/epigenetics-firm-epigentek-focusing-sixth-dna-base

    ReplyDelete
  7. The entire science community is excited about epigenetics.

    I never said epigenetics wasn't exciting. It's a field that is immensely important to our understanding of development (seeing as the whole DNA library is passed down to every cell). It's just that many of the most important aspects of the environment of a developing organism are under strong genetic influence themselves (including significant maternal influence).

    Venter's experimental result is a clear sign that we shouldn't be digging up the corpse of Lamarck just yet.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Espagnat:

    "Ironically, pertaining to the Human Genome Project, it was Craig Venter himself who said science has “learned nothing from the genome other than probabilities.”"

    How is that ironic, since science is all about probabilities of alternative hypotheses? But I guess you mean that Venter, and many others, expected some more certainty about causes of genetic diseases. Par for the course for big science projects - expectations are always too extreme. Otherwise no money.

    "Epigenetics suggests how much context matters, and reminds us that the mere code of our genetic sequence cannot explain who we are and who we will become."

    Who would disagree with that? Epigenetics is important - but not that important, as Venter's experiment clearly shows. It's probably more important for eukaryotes than the prokaryotes in venter's experiment, and may play a very different role in unicellular as opposed to multicellular organisms, since epigenetics plays a major role in cell differentiation.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Zachriel:

    "It's not circular, but a proposed hypothesis."

    These comments are valuable because they illustrate evolutionary thinking. It is not just you saying this. This is the way evolutionists always respond, and the evolutionists here, including yourself, are saying that Darwin's argument is not circular.

    The argument is, of course, prima facie circular. Darwin takes as his premise that "when a cirripede is parasitic within another cirripede and is thus protected, it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace." That would constitute evolutionary change, albeit not terribly significant since it is the loss of a structure, rather than the gain of something new.

    He then continues, reinforcing his premise: "This is the case with the male Ibla, and in a truly extraordinary manner with the Proteolepas". That was, of course, a false claim. Darwin did not know that that was "the case". It may have been the case, but Darwin did not know it to be the case. He was assuming evolutionary change in order to argue for evolution.

    He continues, in case there was any doubt, for a third time stating his evolutionary premise as a given: "in the parasitic and protected Proteolepas, the whole anterior part of the head is reduced to the merest rudiment attached to the bases of the prehensile antennae."

    The fact that he later will use the loss of such structures (even if his evolutionary assumption was true) as justification for concluding that evolution can similarly *create new* structures, as though the loss and gain of structures were equivalent, makes the argument that much more absurd.

    We should not be surprised that evolutionists are in denial of such obvious facts. This illustrates evolutionary thinking. Evolutionists claim their theory is a fact without justification, and then deny such obvious facts as the fallaciousness of evolutionary arguments such as this one.

    ReplyDelete
  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  11. "So long as traits were transmitted, natural selection would be inevitable."

    Indeed. Now, where was the falsification that traits are transmitted? There's a lot of empirical data against you.

    "According to the merger of modern genetics and evolution, it was all in the genes. They determined your traits and they were passed on to your offspring. This view fit evolutionary theory and was quickly accepted as an unquestionable scientific fact.

    There is only one problem: it is false."

    What specifically is false?

    That genes determine traits?
    OR
    That genes are passed to offspring?

    It seems like the argument is that because the linkage of genotype to phenotype is complex, that genes don't determine traits (ergo the 'Gene Myth").

    Of course geneticists recognize the linkage between gene and trait is often complex. Anyone care to define PENETRANCE?

    "Most biological traits (such as height or intelligence in humans) are multifactorial, influenced by many genes as well as environmental conditions and epigenetic expression. Only a statistical measure of association is possible with such polygenic traits."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetrance

    ReplyDelete
  12. Gee-geneticists are in such denial that every textbook, and even wikipedia mentions this well known concept, as well as variable expressivity, late onset, epigenetics, etc.

    So here, Hunter takes textbook knowledge and concepts, and tries to act like they falsify genetics. Because it is complicated.

    Of course, we know genes are linked to traits. Sometimes, the link is direct to one gene and completely penetrant. (Mendel's peas, Sickle Cell, Huntington's, Creutzfeldt-Jakob E200K, etc...)

    Sometimes the gene causes the trait variably (different degrees of impact) in the population (e.g. Marfans Syndrome).

    Sometimes the mutant gene doesn't trigger disease in all individuals (e.g. Retinoblastoma), as other tumor suppressors, for example, come into play.

    Sometimes traits are multi-gene. The contributions of each gene can be parsed in model organisms:

    http://www.futurity.org/science-technology/millions-of-yeast-expose-gene-trait-link/

    "Scientists have developed a new way to identify the hidden genetic material responsible for complex traits. The breakthrough ultimately could lead to a deeper understanding of how multiple genes interact to produce everything from blue eyes to blood pressure problems."

    Or traced by mutli-individual gene sequencing efforts.

    Maybe Dr. Hunter would like to visit his local hospital, and inform some patients suffering from genetic diseases that it isn't all in the genes, that that's the 'Darwinian Gene Myth', and that traits aren't inherited.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Cornelius Hunter: The argument is, of course, prima facie circular.

    Of course it's not circular. He examining the evidence in light of the hypothesis. You just think it's circular because the evidence fits! No single bit of evidence is conclusive, though.

    ReplyDelete
  14. CH: "The argument is, of course, prima facie circular."

    What I'd be curious to know is what does CH think is a non-circular scientific hypothesis? Just about every day CH tells us why he thinks evolution is bad science. And of course it is well-established by now that CH is unlikely to provide an alternative hypothesis to evolution (or indeed even how one would start a research program to develop a hypothesis). Even though he is a Fellow of the Discovery institute, he doesn't seem very interested in "discovering" anything new.

    But what does "good science" look like to CH? What's an example, perhaps from the non-biological sciences, of what he considers to be well thought out, well supported science? Since he won't offer us an alternative hypothesis himself, it would be helpful to know what the "good" benchmark is.

    I don't expect CH to answer - he rarely responds to these kinds of questions - even though they are of course very reasonable questions. But I think it's important for those perhaps new to this blog to realize just how limited and restrictive CH's thinking really is on these matters.

    I'd also like to pose another question - is CH a good ambassador for the Discovery Institute? Does his musings here help or hinder ID?

    ReplyDelete
  15. In case it's not obvious, in attempting to present some sort of fallacious reasoning on the part of Darwin, Cornelius himself is attempting to build a fallacious argument by which Darwin's actions in the past would have somehow prevented the entirety of science from discarding a "myth" which he thinks is obviously "false."

    Apparently, Cornelius thinks if he could only point out some flaw in Darwin's reasoning we would have no choice but to discard 150 years of research across multiple disciplines by thousands of other scientists.

    But, again, this is fallacious reasoning, as scientific theories do not depend on the reasoning of one person. They depend on ongoing independent research, peer review, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Apropos of Dr Hunter’s plastering the accusation of “begging the question” on poor old Darwin, I went rummaging in the archives of this blog for one of his classic discoveries of logical fallacy, namely, the fallacy of Contrastive Reasoning.

    I haven’t found the relevant comment yet, but in the meantime I came upon the precise point in history when the good doctor opened his blog to comments.

    It was Wednesday, August 26, 2009. The topic was Ribosome More Complicated Than Thought, and there was one comment.

    Enjoy:

    http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2009/08/ribosome-more-complicated-than-thought.html

    and celebrate the upcoming anniversary!

    (We now resume our regular programming.)

    ReplyDelete
  17. Zachriel and Jenfeld:

    ===
    Of course it's not circular. He examining the evidence in light of the hypothesis.
    ===

    No, he is presupposing what he is concluding.

    ===
    You just think it's circular because the evidence fits!
    ===

    No, the evidence does not fit, except when it is assumed to be the result of evolution, as Darwin does.

    It is good to achieve clarity, even in disagreement. Darwin makes an unambiguous circular argument and evolutionists deny it. We definitely have clarity here.

    Circular reasoning is presupposing what you later will conclude. Darwin is arguing for evolution. Specifically, in this case, his target is the law of compensation. He will conclude it doesn't hold in the wild. His premise is that:

    "when a cirripede is parasitic within another cirripede and is thus protected, it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace."

    This is a false claim. It may be true or it may be false, but Darwin does not know it to be true. But the claim, aside from being false, necessarily entails that the law of compensation is false. He then concludes that the law of compensation is false. That's circular reasoning.

    Darwin reinforces this by restating his premise a total of three times. He writes:

    "This is the case with the male Ibla, and in a truly extraordinary manner with the Proteolepas". Again, it is a false claim that necessarily entails that the law of compensation is false. He was assuming evolutionary change in order to argue for evolution.

    And yet again, Darwin writes:

    "in the parasitic and protected Proteolepas, the whole anterior part of the head is reduced to the merest rudiment attached to the bases of the prehensile antennae."

    Again, it is a false claim that also necessarily entails that the law of compensation is false.

    The evidence does not "fit" evolution, it is being presupposed to be a consequence of evolution.



    Janfeld writes:

    ===
    What I'd be curious to know is what does CH think is a non-circular scientific hypothesis? ...
    But what does "good science" look like to CH? ... I don't expect CH to answer
    ===

    A non-circular scientific hypothesis does not presuppose it is correct. Similarly, a scientist does not interpret evidence according to his hypothesis, and then claim the interpretation as evidence for the hypothesis. But then again, that's obvious.





    I can explain problems with evolution, but don't expect evolutionists to acknowledge them. Evolutionists are in denial, because for them evolution must be a fact.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Are there going to be more Parts to The Gene Myth, or is this it? Because this looks to have more non sequiturs than the last one, but I wanted to wait until you finished the series to evaluate the reasoning. Can you state in a concise sentence or paragraph what the content of "the gene myth" is?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Chris Martin:

    "Are there going to be more Parts to The Gene Myth"

    No.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Cornelius Hunter: No, he is presupposing what he is concluding.

    You do understand that hypothesis-testing means tentatively accepting a claim in order to deduce empirical implications, then comparing those implications to observation? That's what Darwin is doing.

    Perhaps you could express your statement in Boolean logic.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Chris Martin:
    "Are there going to be more Parts to The Gene Myth"


    CH:
    No.


    Really? So your whole argument (the 'gene myth') is that Darwin - with no knowledge of genes and an incorrect understanding of both heredity what types of variation are heritable - made an argument that you consider circular?

    Because, and let's be realistic here, that has no bearing at all on current evolutionary biology, in which both Darwin's incorrect ideas about heritable variation and the nature of heredity have been superceded. Darwin did not actually recognise mutation as it is currently understood to have importance in evolution, hence the early argument between mendelists and darwinists. Nobody currently investigating evolutionary biology holds a 'darwinian' view of heredity.

    As Newman explains, the gene is nothing close to how evolution envisioned it.

    Forgetting the strange anthropomorhism, what does this mean? Nothing close? All Newman does here is reject a solely deterministic model of genetics. Yes, the reality is complex. The only thing evolutionary theorists are 'guilty' of, is exploring a simpler model of genetics before exploring a more complex one.

    ReplyDelete
  22. "His premise is that:

    "when a cirripede is parasitic within another cirripede and is thus protected, it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace."

    This is a false claim. It may be true or it may be false, but Darwin does not know it to be true."

    No, that is an observation. One could go scrape up some barnacles oneself, and make the same observation.

    It argues against the law of compensation-no other structure is enhanced because of the increase available nutrients with the lack of a carapace. Darwin then proposes if the law of compensation is violable in one direction, it might be in the other.

    Right or wrong,what is the 'Gene Myth?'

    Is it some point other than what Darwin said 150 years ago, prior to the discovery of genes?

    Or something other than one quote showing the relationship of genotype to phenotype is complex?

    What is the gene myth? Do they not exist? Do genes not code for traits? Are traits uninheritable?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Ok, well, if this is all three posts, I really don't understand what argument you're trying to make. You seem to be arguing several loosely related claims at once. We started out talking about Chapter 5 of the Origin of Species, and how natural selection relates to the law of compensation. Then, you somehow got out of that text that Goethe didn't believe in large-scale change (this is false, he just believed that evolution was efficient, but that's the proposition you want to defend so let's forget about Goethe). In your most recent post, you started out by saying you were going to explain why Darwin believed in large-scale change, but you ended up talking about non-genetic factors in the internal chemistry of prokaryotes.

    Does that about summarize things?

    The law of compensation doesn't limit development to small-scale change, only change that maximizes benefit to the organism within the resource ("nutriment") constraints of its environment. There's nothing about animals in captivity being "anchored by design" as they "drift about a bit." The distinction between wild and captive isn't even brought up in the discussion on "the law of compensation or balancement of growth."

    Furthermore, Darwin doesn't mention cirripedes to illustrate that there is no limit on the scale of evolution, only to illustrate that "natural selection is continually trying to economise in every part of the organisation [organism]." His argument would be circular if he were making the claims you're putting in his mouth, but he isn't, and it's not. For a barnacle to lose its carapace when it inhabits a larger organism is efficient, because those barnacles don't have to waste nutrients on creating shells. If the host organisms were to leave, the unshelled barnacles would gradually die from exposure and be replaced by a new strain of shelled barnacles. Whether nature develop big things or only reduce big things while developing small things or only reduce things big and small or only reduce or develop small things--none of that is in this chapter, you're just reading "anti-macroevolution" into Johann Goethe, a respected naturalist who accepted evolutionary theory.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Now, after having taken this gnarled road to arrive at your premise that large-scale change is a Darwinian fantasy, you drift off into a discussion of how traits are passed one generation to the next before asserting that the proposition "it's all in the genes" is "false." (How brave of you to defy the scientific community, so brazenly convinced that "it's all in the genes" is "an unquestionable and scientific fact.")

    Seriously, your last three posts were labeled "The Gene Myth," and across all three of them the only sentence I can identify explaining what The Gene Myth is consists of "it's all in the genes." If that's your beef, that evolution is more complicated than "it's all in the genes"--and not that macroevolution is impossible, or that all useful adaptation is necessarily accompanied by wasteful adaptation--then we have no issue.

    But no, of course, we finally get around to Homo sapiens and chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are so different from people, but there genes are so similar! Clearly, the genes are lying to us. I was eager to hear your explanation as to what truly accounts for the vast differences between humans and chimpanzees, but then you went back to the Archean era some three billion years before the first mammals. Here, you enlightened us as to the influence of non-genetic factors such as "the temperature and composition of the external environment" on the molecular chemistry of single-celled life.

    How this explains the differences between humans and chimpanzees is not mentioned. How this shows that Darwin's argument for macroevolution is false is not brought up. And how this proves that all living organisms are "anchored by design" is hardly considered relevant enough to comment on. As for "the gene myth," as far as I can tell the only "far more complicated story" to tell is that "the external environment" had a hand in evolution, which is exactly what The Origin of Species was about to begin with.

    ReplyDelete
  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  26. This is one of the most ridiculously illogical and meandering attacks on Darwinism I've ever read, and I have read a few. You seem to be more interested in accusing the scientific establishment of being unscientific than objectively scrutinizing the nature of gene variation. If you want to mount the case that the conceptual basis of modern genetics and evolutionary biology is all pernicious myth, or that the principles of the scientific method would vindicate intelligent design but for the "denial" bias of every researcher everywhere, you're going to have to do a lot better than the last two paragraphs of a chapter out of The Origin and an interview with a developmental biologist whose only criticism of Darwin is that his incrementalism was too restrained*. Have you even read the articles you're citing as supportive of your views? Because taken in context, they're diametrically opposed to most of what you've said here.

    *Here's Dr. Stuart Neumann, the man you cite as a credible source, arguing in favor of large-scale change in the same exact article you've linked us to here: "While it has been conventional to argue that organisms very different from members of their originating population are likely to fare poorly in the struggle for existence, we now have numerous examples in animals and plants in which such 'hopeful monsters' have come to occupy new ecological niches rather than competing to the death with their relatives. So in principle, Darwin’s model of gradual change due to the selective advantage of minor variants is not required to account for the evolutionary transformation of organisms from one complex form to another.

    "For most present-day organisms, however, redundant developmental pathways conspire to stabilize the generation of a standard phenotypic outcome. The fact that organismal forms are typically resistant to saltational change was the basis Darwin’s incrementalism. But while the organisms of our experience do not often undergo major morphological reorganization, the circuitry that stabilizes development is itself a product of evolution. More ancient organisms, which had fewer 'canalizing' mechanisms, were more developmentally plastic and prone to large-scale changes. The inescapable conclusion of these 'EvoDevo' arguments is that phylum-scale evolution preceded evolution on the scale of species."

    You see? Neither Goethe, Darwin, or Neumann are arguing for a limit on large-scale evolutionary change. Goethe argued that changes would be balanced, not that balanced changes over time would not lead to large differences. And Neumann is arguing that the plasticity of organisms has itself evolved over time due to the development of more efficiently organized developmental pathways (for more on the interdisciplinary study of evolution and development, see Evolving Evolution, NYRB: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2006/may/11/evolving-evolution/ )

    ReplyDelete
  27. RobertC:

    ===
    No, that is an observation. One could go scrape up some barnacles oneself, and make the same observation.
    ===

    No, Darwin did not observe Ibla lose a carapace that it once had, prior to becoming parasitic. This is a good example of evolutionary thinking. To evolutionists, evolution is so unavoidable and unquestionable that an unjustified inference becomes an "observation."

    ReplyDelete
  28. Paul:

    ===
    So your whole argument (the 'gene myth') is that Darwin - with no knowledge of genes and an incorrect understanding of both heredity what types of variation are heritable - made an argument that you consider circular?
    ===

    No, Darwin made an argument that is prima facie circular. The fact that I spelled it out in some level of detail is not an indication that it is debatable or uncertain, it is because I am attempting to communicate with evolutionists, and evolutionists are deeply in denial.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Cornelius Hunter said...

    Paul:

    ===
    So your whole argument (the 'gene myth') is that Darwin - with no knowledge of genes and an incorrect understanding of both heredity what types of variation are heritable - made an argument that you consider circular?
    ===

    No, Darwin made an argument that is prima facie circular. The fact that I spelled it out in some level of detail is not an indication that it is debatable or uncertain, it is because I am attempting to communicate with evolutionists, and evolutionists are deeply in denial.


    Or you don't have the faintest understanding of how science approaches the testing of hypotheses, and are deeply in denial of the reality which numerous people have pointed out to you.

    That's what the evidence shows anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Whatever man.

    "when a cirripede is parasitic within another cirripede and is thus protected, it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace."

    Is an observation.

    For an interesting description of the detailed comparative anatomy behind Darwin's larger conclusions, see here:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=7jqG57k7H6wC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=Ibla+barnacle&source=bl&ots=xie9LO_jbW&sig=TOqUHZ7ETYlhD68kJ7Pe02oEd5U&hl=en&ei=C_VxTLyWM8GB8gamvpmPBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Ibla%20barnacle&f=false

    But I note you continue to push the Darwin bashing, and dodges the question:

    What is the 'Gene Myth?'

    Is it some point other than what Darwin said 150 years ago, prior to the discovery of genes?

    Or something other than one quote showing the relationship of genotype to phenotype is complex?

    What is the gene myth? Do they not exist? Do genes not code for traits? Are traits uninheritable?

    I'm sure in short time, Bornagain77, or you yourself will be linking to this post as a disproof of the materialist interpretation of genes.

    All I see he is snarking over one phrase Darwin wrote 150 years ago, with no actual analysis of the data behind it.

    ReplyDelete
  31. RobertC"

    ===
    Whatever man.

    "when a cirripede is parasitic within another cirripede and is thus protected, it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace."

    Is an observation.
    ===

    No, that is not an observation. "It loses" its carapace is an inference.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Chris Martin:

    ===
    Then, you somehow got out of that text that Goethe didn't believe in large-scale change (this is false, he just believed that evolution was efficient, but that's the proposition you want to defend so let's forget about Goethe).
    ===

    No, my point was that Goethe's law of compensation was a problem for Darwin's large-scale change. Darwin's evolutionary theory was very different from Goethe's notions.

    ===
    There's nothing about animals in captivity being "anchored by design" as they "drift about a bit." The distinction between wild and captive isn't even brought up in the discussion on "the law of compensation or balancement of growth."
    ===

    Good point, I'll edit that.

    ===
    Furthermore, Darwin doesn't mention cirripedes to illustrate that there is no limit on the scale of evolution, only to illustrate that "natural selection is continually trying to economise in every part of the organisation [organism]." His argument would be circular if he were making the claims you're putting in his mouth, but he isn't, and it's not. For a barnacle to lose its carapace when it inhabits a larger organism is efficient, because those barnacles don't have to waste nutrients on creating shells. If the host organisms were to leave, the unshelled barnacles would gradually die from exposure and be replaced by a new strain of shelled barnacles. Whether nature develop big things or only reduce big things while developing small things or only reduce things big and small or only reduce or develop small things--none of that is in this chapter, ...
    ===

    Well not exactly. Darwin is not merely trying to illustrate that "natural selection is continually trying to economise in every part of the organisation [organism]." He is arguing that the law of compensation, while reasonable for domestic productions, does not hold in nature. But I agree the blog does not do justice to Darwin's narrow point. More later ...

    ReplyDelete
  33. Chris Martin:

    ===
    His argument would be circular if he were making the claims you're putting in his mouth, but he isn't, and it's not. For a barnacle to lose its carapace when it inhabits a larger organism is efficient, because those barnacles don't have to waste nutrients on creating shells.
    ===

    I'll try again. Darwin states as a given that Proteolepas lost its carapace when it became parasitic. Did Darwin observe Proteolepas losing its carapace or did he infer this?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Dr Hunter:

    I'll try again. Darwin states as a given that Proteolepas lost its carapace when it became parasitic. Did Darwin observe Proteolepas losing its carapace or did he infer this?

    Got it! He inferred it. Now, what precisely is fallacious about that inference? And what precisely is fallacious about incorporating that inference into a larger argument?

    If Darwin had said, “By the way, I am assuming for the sake of argument that when a cirripede is parasitic within another cirripede and is thus protected, it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace” would that have satisfied you?

    Filed under: Pedantry

    ReplyDelete
  35. Cornelius Hunter: I'll try again. Darwin states as a given that Proteolepas lost its carapace when it became parasitic. Did Darwin observe Proteolepas losing its carapace or did he infer this?

    David: Got it! He inferred it. Now, what precisely is fallacious about that inference? And what precisely is fallacious about incorporating that inference into a larger argument?


    What Cornelius is saying is that the parasitic barnacle could have been an act of special creation with no ancestors that were carapace owners. The creator just gave them the vestiges of a head and otherwise made them good barnacles. Why? Not ours to ask. Of course, if you accept that last sentence, you are probably not a scientist.

    Darwin is saying that the changes required to produce a parasitic barnacle from a standard form are significant in effect, but are minor as achievements (loss and reduction of structure present in an ancestor), so that the reader familiar with variability documented within domestic and wild populations will agree with him that his conclusion is valid. He would argue that his is a better inference than the assumption of limits to change (and he was right - see the "short dog" mutation, black coloration that then introgressed into North American wolves, etc., etc.). Therefore this "law" of compensation should not be used elsewhere to attack evolution.

    Of course, Darwin is still overlooking the point made by Cornelius above. Perhaps the creator put parasitic barnacles within more typical barnacles as an artistic statement, or perhaps to fool those so brazen as to try to acquire knowledge from the natural world into thinking evolution had occurred when in fact it had not. Given the creator's stance on education in the Garden of Eden, that's not so far-fetched.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Dr Hunter might also have noted that Darwin assumed that Ibla and Proteolepas were related to other barnacles. All inferences based on taxonomic criteria are hypotheses, and presumably Darwin should have pointed that out.

    ReplyDelete
  37. So, inferences are now a priori circular?

    What a wonderful world.

    Not attempts at explaining what the gene myth is?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Janfeld writes:

    ===
    What I'd be curious to know is what does CH think is a non-circular scientific hypothesis? ...
    But what does "good science" look like to CH? ... I don't expect CH to answer
    ===

    A non-circular scientific hypothesis does not presuppose it is correct. Similarly, a scientist does not interpret evidence according to his hypothesis, and then claim the interpretation as evidence for the hypothesis. But then again, that's obvious.


    Perhaps I didn't phrase my question correctly, but what I was after from CH wasn't a definition, but an actual example of this "good" science, perhaps from another scientific discipline. In other words, name a scientist or a scientific theory/law where this kind of "good" science is demonstrated.

    ReplyDelete
  39. "So, to reiterate, the genes do not uniquely determine what is in the cell, but what is in the cell determines how the genes get used"

    Yet, more evidence for the cell being a tightly integrated and highly complex system. The next few years will be wonderful as scientists attempt to further unravel the multiple levels of information and complex networking within the living cell. It certainly makes sense that more is happening in the cell than was understood because of the incredible abilities of living cells to function as they do. From a robotics and information technology standpoint one could ask what it would take to duplicate something like a cell... we are closer to landing a man on pluto than fully understanding the complexities of the cell. Evolutionists are so far from comprehension that they still clearly lack an appreciation for that complexity. Too many are still stuck in the 19th century Darwinian view of the warm little pond fairy tale.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Cornelius, take note of a few things. Even the authors of Uncommon Descent deleted the links to this series of articles. That should tell you something. Their credibility went up a tad for this. Also note that even your usual defenders are mostly silent in this thread. I think that even they realize that your premise is completely wrong, and even if it weren't, it would still be completely irrelevant.

    You've had a few posts that would be A+ articles if you just changed "This is how evolutionists work," to "This is how scientists work." You've had a few posts that are F- articles, no matter what. You've had many in between. This series is so far below anything you've posted before, that your only option to save face is to apologize and move on. Or at least stop digging yourself deeper by continuing to defend it. I won't waste any space here elaborating the fallacies in this series; others have done that amply. You've scraped though the bottom of the barrel on this one, and you're six feet into the ground below.

    It's like saying that if Einstein made a circular argument to make a point about relativity, (that was actually correct) to answer an opponent's charge, (that was actually incorrect) Then all of Relativity is built on a house of cards and we should toss it all out and start over.

    It only harms the case for ID to see its adherents making such ridiculous, irrelevant arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Derick Childress said...

    It only harms the case for ID to see its adherents making such ridiculous, irrelevant arguments.


    The problem is, ID doesn't have anything besides ridiculous, irrelevant arguments.

    At least CH is trying to add some variety to the usual boring ID clown circus.

    ReplyDelete
  42. John said:
    Venter's experimental result is a clear sign that we shouldn't be digging up the corpse of Lamarck just yet.

    I see that you are keeping an open mind about the rebirth of Lamarckism but still pessimistic. There are so many people in the scientific community who are optimistic and they have good reasons. Check out the following article from MIT.

    The effects of an animal's environment during adolescence can be passed down to future offspring, according to two new studies. If applicable to humans, the research, done on rodents, suggests that the impact of both childhood education and early abuse could span generations. The findings provide support for a 200-year-old theory of evolution that has been largely dismissed: Lamarckian evolution, which states that acquired characteristics can be passed on to offspring.

    http://technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22061/page1/

    ReplyDelete
  43. Derick Childress:

    ===
    Even the authors of Uncommon Descent deleted the links to this series of articles.
    ===

    No I did that. Much of Chris's criticism was right on as the blog's seque from Goethe to Darwin was inadequate.

    ReplyDelete
  44. In that case, Cornelius, I apologize for the presumption, and stand corrected. That was a commendable thing to do.

    ReplyDelete
  45. RobertC:

    "So, inferences are now a priori circular?"

    Yes. If I interpret measurement A according to theory X, and then use that interpretation as confirming X, then that is circular.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Dr Hunter quoting RobertC:

    "So, inferences are now a priori circular?"

    Yes. If I interpret measurement A according to theory X, and then use that interpretation as confirming X, then that is circular.


    But, in the passage in question, Darwin didn't do that, did he?

    ReplyDelete
  47. CH - Yes. If I interpret measurement A according to theory X, and then use that interpretation as confirming X, then that is circular.

    So if a measurement is made on the amount of complexity and irreducibility on a biologcal component (e.g., let's take the flagellum) and this is then interpreted as confirming ID, then that is a circular argument then?

    ReplyDelete
  48. David:

    ===
    Yes. If I interpret measurement A according to theory X, and then use that interpretation as confirming X, then that is circular.

    But, in the passage in question, Darwin didn't do that, did he?
    ===

    Yes, Darwin certainly did do that.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Janfeld:

    ===
    So if a measurement is made on the amount of complexity and irreducibility on a biologcal component (e.g., let's take the flagellum) and this is then interpreted as confirming ID, then that is a circular argument then?
    ===

    Let's reword for clarity. If an IDer presupposes that structure A *was* designed, and since structure A works with structure B, therefore structure B was also designed, and so now structure B serves as powerful evidence for design, then that would be circular, don't you agree?

    ReplyDelete
  50. John:

    ===
    What Cornelius is saying is that the parasitic barnacle could have been an act of special creation with no ancestors that were carapace owners. The creator just gave them the vestiges of a head and otherwise made them good barnacles. Why? Not ours to ask. Of course, if you accept that last sentence, you are probably not a scientist.

    Darwin is saying that the changes required to produce a parasitic barnacle from a standard form are significant in effect, but are minor as achievements (loss and reduction of structure present in an ancestor), so that the reader familiar with variability documented within domestic and wild populations will agree with him that his conclusion is valid. He would argue that his is a better inference than the assumption of limits to change (and he was right - see the "short dog" mutation, black coloration that then introgressed into North American wolves, etc., etc.). Therefore this "law" of compensation should not be used elsewhere to attack evolution.

    Of course, Darwin is still overlooking the point made by Cornelius above. Perhaps the creator put parasitic barnacles within more typical barnacles as an artistic statement, or perhaps to fool those so brazen as to try to acquire knowledge from the natural world into thinking evolution had occurred when in fact it had not. Given the creator's stance on education in the Garden of Eden, that's not so far-fetched.
    ===

    Good explanation except that I don't say "Not ours to ask". I simply ask for an honest accounting of assumptions.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Even though it belongs to another post I will repost it here:
    Dr. Hunter you are misrepresenting what Darwin is saying in the paragraph which is clear form the sentence you omitted before your citation:

    I suspect, also, that some of the cases of compensation which have been advanced, and likewise some other facts, may be merged under a more general principle, namely, that natural selection is continually trying to economise in every part of the organisation.

    The only thing Darwin wants to demonstrate is that under the assumption that the ToE is true The Law of Compensation can be explained by natural selection. And he provides examples for that. Neither are these or the paragraph meant to prove the ToE in general nor natural selection in particular are true.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Hunter quoting David:

    Hunter's words:

    Yes. If I interpret measurement A according to theory X, and then use that interpretation as confirming X, then that is circular.

    David's words:

    But, in the passage in question, Darwin didn't do that, did he?

    Hunter’s reply:

    Yes, Darwin certainly did do that.


    That’s not helpful. I was hoping you would provide quotes from Darwin’s passage to support your claim instead of just repeating your claim.

    As second opinion pointed out, Darwin interpreted observations of barnacle morphology according to the working assumption of natural selection, while contrasting that interpretation to what the “law of conservation” might predict. However, he did not use that interpretation as a confirmation of natural selection.

    Darwin did “interpret measurement A according to theory X,” but he did not “use that interpretation as confirming X.” Therefore, his argument is not circular.

    All you have to do now to support your claim of circular reasoning is quote the words that Darwin used to confirm natural selection by hypothesizing natural selection.

    ReplyDelete
  53. ===
    Janfeld: So if a measurement is made on the amount of complexity and irreducibility on a biologcal component (e.g., let's take the flagellum) and this is then interpreted as confirming ID, then that is a circular argument then?
    ===

    CH: Let's reword for clarity. If an IDer presupposes that structure A *was* designed, and since structure A works with structure B, therefore structure B was also designed, and so now structure B serves as powerful evidence for design, then that would be circular, don't you agree?


    Why reword it, I think it's quite clear. And after all it is precisely based on the syllogism that you came up with yourself! Nice trick - instead of the answering the question (of your original devising), you simply change the question to suit your needs. Nice!

    And...still waiting for the "good" science example...

    ReplyDelete
  54. If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor.

    Most genes are responsible for every day sustaining of the organism and cells that make up the organism.

    Only a small fraction have anything to do with development.

    And there isn't any evidence that changes in that small fraction can account for the changes required.

    As for chimp and human genome similarity- no one knows what that is as there has not been a complete side by side comparison.

    ReplyDelete
  55. “Yet by the late 1980s it was becoming obvious to most genetic researchers, including myself, since my own main research interest in the ‘80s and ‘90s was human genetics, that the heroic effort to find the information specifying life’s order in the genes had failed. There was no longer the slightest justification for believing that there exists anything in the genome remotely resembling a program capable of specifying in detail all the complex order of the phenotype. The emerging picture made it increasingly difficult to see genes in Weismann’s “unambiguous bearers of information” or to view them as the sole source of the durability and stability of organic form. It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it. Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation. From being “isolated directors” of a one-way game of life, genes are now considered to be interactive players in a dynamic two-way dance of almost unfathomable complexity, as described by Keller in The Century of The Gene.”
    Michael John Denton page 172 of Uncommon Dissent

    ReplyDelete
  56. "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    Where do you get these ideas?

    There are limited examples of somatic cell nuclear transfer across species, but a cow egg and guar (ox) nucleus produced an ox, wildcats have been born from domestic feline eggs and wildcat nuclei. Whales, and frogs have been done also. The donor nucleus (genome) specifies what develops. Venter famously demonstrated this in bacteria, with his synthetic genome transfer.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15671671
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19893277

    ReplyDelete
  57. RobertC asserted:

    "Venter famously demonstrated this in bacteria, with his synthetic genome transfer."
    ======================

    You're refering to the article which came out not long ago claiming Dr Craig 'Menegle' Venter had created artificial life ???

    So when does plagiarism of already existing information and inserting it into an already existing living cell become artificial life which was titled, "“First Live Organism with Synthetic Genome Created" justly become titled artificial life ???

    http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/first-synthetic-genome-cell-100520.html

    Venter’s lab took existing genes from bacteria and performed some reverse engineering on it, then inserted it back into the hardware of a living cell. He wasn't forced to abide by any Darwinian principles which demands that the explanation for the genetic code itself is blind chance and necessity resulting from nothing more than a happy chemical accident of chemicals and physics. Any way you look at it, wasn't it really intelligent designing at work there ??? If that is not the case, then should we assume that Venter’s lab found it more worthwhile to plagiarize chaos ???

    Hmmmmmmmmmm!!!

    ReplyDelete
  58. Eocene said "So when does plagiarism of already existing information and inserting it into an already existing living cell become artificial life which was titled, "“First Live Organism with Synthetic Genome Created" justly become titled artificial life ??? "

    Eocene, as usual, you are refuting an argument that exists only in your imagination. If you were to have read Robert's post with a 5th grade reading comprehension level or higher, you would see that what he is saying is that if you take a donor genome and place it in the egg of another species, it is a member of the donor species that develops, if anything develops at all. His post that you are referencing had nothing to do with evolution, artificial life, abiogenesis, or anything else. It was a response to JoeG's absolutely preposterous claim that "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor." (I'd like to think that Joe made a typo; It's hard to believe that even he could be that dense and ignorant of genetics) The only reason he referenced Venter's genome transfer is that the genome that was implanted is what developed. Please try to read people's arguments instead of scanning for buzzwords to jump on.

    ReplyDelete
  59. RobertyC:
    There are limited examples of somatic cell nuclear transfer across species, but a cow egg and guar (ox) nucleus produced an ox,

    They are basically the same animal.

    wildcats have been born from domestic feline eggs and wildcat nuclei.

    Again basically the same.

    Whales, and frogs have been done also.

    How so?

    Frog DNA has been placed in a whale egg and a frog developed?

    ReplyDelete
  60. Derrik:
    It was a response to JoeG's absolutely preposterous claim that "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    That is a fact- ask any embryologist.

    Also a bacteria is not an animal...

    Take feline DNA and put it into an egg of a dog- see what happens.

    My bet is nothing survives.

    IOW try something with totally different organisms and get back to me...

    ReplyDelete
  61. RobertC:
    There are limited examples of somatic cell nuclear transfer across species, but a cow egg and guar (ox) nucleus produced an ox, wildcats have been born from domestic feline eggs and wildcat nuclei.

    Perhaps these are not different species after all.

    IOW Robert it appears this says more about our classification than anything else.

    A gaur and domestic cow belong to the same Genus- they are basically the same.

    The only difference is geological isolation.

    The same goes for wildcats and domestic cats.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Joe G: "That is a fact- ask any embryologist."

    Joe, I tried to give you an out, but instead you just continued to blab and demonstrate your ignorance of somatic cell nuclear transfer, and of genetics in general.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Derick childress

    "Please try to read people's arguments instead of scanning for buzzwords to jump on."
    ========================

    Really Derick ??? Maybe you should do likewise and direct your righteous indignation elsewhere. You did exactly that on the other thread with regards my comments regarding Genesis. Maybe it would be simpler to assign yourself over to the atheist kamp since you have ZERO respect for the Biblical creation account for which Jesus Christ himself quoted, indicating he believed what was written.

    What I commented on with regards Dr Franken-Organism Venter was right on the money. The fact you didn't like it is typical of an atheist posing in sheeps clothing as a Theist Evolutionist.

    ReplyDelete
  64. JoeG and Eocene-

    Your off topic objections aside, the point is the genome-(whether bacterial or animal) directs the phenotype of the organism.

    That Eocene says nasty things against Venter, associating him with a Nazi butcher, and JoeG thinks a guar and a dairy cow are the same animal doesn't change this.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Derick childress:

    "Joe, I tried to give you an out, but instead you just continued to blab and demonstrate your ignorance of somatic cell nuclear transfer, and of genetics in general."
    ===================

    You tried out of the goodness of your heart to give him a way out ??? Sure !!!

    Do you ever slam atheists for what could be called blasphemy against someone you claim to serve , even tho you never actually explain how or why a god you believe in used such chaotic circumstances to arrive at what is otherwise the perfect order of the natural world around us ???

    ReplyDelete
  66. RobertC

    Your off topic objections aside, the point is the genome-(whether bacterial or animal) directs the phenotype of the organism.
    =====================

    There was nothing off topic. You brought up venter's name ( not me ), championing his pseudo-artificial lifeform creation. I merely responded. I'm not responsible if you don't like the outcome of the actual truth of what he did or didn't do in this case. That responsibility is yours and you made that quite clear.
    -------------------------

    "That Eocene says nasty things against Venter, associating him with a Nazi butcher, . . . "
    ========================

    Yes and if such men have their way in the creation of Franken-Organisms to combat the imperfect Human consequences of what are nothing more than clear behavioral issues as opposed to dealing with the actual causes for their existance in the first place, then yes I'm against this man's actions. The things this man wants to create will have catastrophic consequences on an already unbalanced natural world, so yes I am defensive for things that have potential permanent irreversible harm to nature.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Wow, this has gone off the deep end, but:

    JoeG- Google image search a guar and a cow. Not the same animal. They even have different chromosome numbers. My understanding is they are sparingly inter-fertile.

    BUT, my point stands EVEN if they were the same species! Your objection is silly, but also besides the point:

    Within species, the breed, gender, body plan, coloration, etc., follows the donor of the genome and not the host egg. Find me an embryologist who says otherwise.

    Eocene- I got nothing. I can't reason with someone who thinks genomics and synthetic biology is comparable to the holocaust butchery of a madman.

    ReplyDelete
  68. David:

    ===
    That’s not helpful. I was hoping you would provide quotes from Darwin’s passage to support your claim instead of just repeating your claim.
    ===

    I did. What is it about "it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace" that you don't understand?

    ===
    As second opinion pointed out, Darwin interpreted observations of barnacle morphology according to the working assumption of natural selection, ...
    ===

    Fine, but you cannot then use that interpretation in an argument for evolution.

    ===
    ... while contrasting that interpretation to what the “law of conservation” might predict. However, he did not use that interpretation as a confirmation of natural selection.
    ===

    It was an argument against Goethe's teleological law of compensation and for Darwin's anti teleological version of evolution.

    ===
    Darwin did “interpret measurement A according to theory X,” but he did not “use that interpretation as confirming X.” Therefore, his argument is not circular.
    ===

    No, Darwin is reckoning with an idea that is inconsistent with the theory he is trying to advance. He builds an argument in which he uses as a premise an interpretation of barnacles according to *his* theory. The fact that the law of compensation is the foil that Darwin has in view here does take away from the fact that his reasoning is circular.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I am also having posts disappear. Any solution to this?

    ReplyDelete
  70. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  71. RobertC:
    JoeG- Google image search a guar and a cow. Not the same animal. They even have different chromosome numbers. My understanding is they are sparingly inter-fertile.

    They are the same thing- take a look!

    Geez the are the same Genus.

    BUT, my point stands EVEN if they were the same species! Your objection is silly, but also besides the point

    My objection refutes your nonsense.

    Within species, the breed, gender, body plan, coloration, etc., follows the donor of the genome and not the host egg. Find me an embryologist who says otherwise.

    Actually no one knows where the body plan is.

    As I said if you put cat DNA into a dog egg you will not get a cat.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Derick:
    Joe, I tried to give you an out, but instead you just continued to blab and demonstrate your ignorance of somatic cell nuclear transfer, and of genetics in general.

    So you say yet you don't have any evidence to back up your false accusation.

    I have noticed you cannot provide any quotes from any embryologist that refutes my claim.

    OTOH Jonathan Wells is an embryologist- and even though you chumps may not like him he agrees with what I posted- it is even in the book "The Design of Life".

    ReplyDelete
  73. page 53 of "The Design of Life"

    "Placing foreign DNA into an egg does not change the species of the egg or embryo. (The rare exceptions to this rule involve animals that could normally mate to produce hybrids.)"

    ReplyDelete
  74. Gaur:

    Previously thought to be closer to bison, genetic analysis has found that they are closer to cattle with which they can produce fertile hybrids.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Derick,

    I know more about genetics and biology than you.

    And I have noticed you haven't produced any evidence that refutes what I and others have claimed.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Eocene bellowed: "Really Derick ??? Maybe you should do likewise and direct your righteous indignation elsewhere. You did exactly that on the other thread with regards my comments regarding Genesis."

    Eocene, surely you're not referring to the post on the fossil fungus controlled ant" article, where, after you accused me of 'assuming you were a YEC,' I clearly showed you why my comment made no assumption about you or anyone else's beliefs about the timeframe of Genesis at all, and that to the contrary, my guess was that you were an not a YEC?

    Or are you referring to something else? Can you specifically point out an example?

    "Maybe it would be simpler to assign yourself over to the atheist kamp since you have ZERO respect for the Biblical creation account for which Jesus Christ himself quoted, indicating he believed what was written."

    Eocene, it is you who makes a mockery of the text by distorting it beyond all recognition to reconcile it with the modern understanding of the universe. You yourself call part of the creation account ridiculous. You still maintain that the account "agrees with scientific chronological order," even when it is demonstrated to you that almost no part of the story lines up with the actual order in which things arose. Interpreting Genesis as a literal historical account in light of what we now know makes it the object of ridicule to non-Christians. Jesus often referenced parables in his teachings. Are we to conclude that the Good Samaritan was necessarily an actual, historical individual just because Jesus started the story with a matter-of-fact: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho..."

    ReplyDelete
  77. RobertC:
    Your off topic objections aside, the point is the genome-(whether bacterial or animal) directs the phenotype of the organism.

    It- the genome- may influence development but it does not determine what develops.

    ReplyDelete
  78. And BTW Derick- I never said anything about somatic cell nuclear transfer.

    And you call yourself a christian?

    ReplyDelete
  79. Again from Dr Denton:

    "It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it. Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation."

    ReplyDelete
  80. Joe G said: "nd BTW Derick- I never said anything about somatic cell nuclear transfer."

    but earlier he said:

    "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    Joe, if not SCNT, the what process are you describing that takes the genome out of a donor cell and puts it into the egg of another organism?

    "And you call yourself a christian?"

    Yes, Joe, and I'm very open about that. How about you - what do you call yourself? Muslim? Christian? Atheist? Buddhist? How about sharing with us a little bit about your belief?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Eocene said: "What I commented on with regards Dr Franken-Organism Venter was right on the money."

    Your comment has *absolutely nothing* to do with Robert's argument. Robert's remark was about somatic cell nuclear transfer, not about "blah blah blah nazi blah evil scientists blah atheist chaos blah!"

    ReplyDelete
  82. Eocene said "Do you ever slam atheists for what could be called blasphemy against someone you claim to serve..."

    This is a blog about evolution and Intelligent Design. When someone does make unfounded inferences about religion, I do comment. I also comment when someone makes ludicrous statements about reality. I try not to 'slam' anyone. But sometimes a slight bit of ridicule is the appropriate response for ridiculous statements; especially when they are very demonstrably *wrong*. And what are you calling 'blasphemy'? Advocating science? Being inquisitive? Methodological Naturalism? Presenting evidence for one's position? Not denying reality in favor of your interpretation of the creation story? None of those are wrong in any sense of the word.

    Eocene, your comments are getting less and less rational. I think your lack of care in reading and understanding other's posts is a large contributor to this.

    On an unrelated note, In one post you refer to the "perfect order of the natural world around us," but in the *very next post*you call it "an already unbalanced natural world." Which is it - perfectly ordered, or already unbalanced?

    ReplyDelete
  83. "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    Derick:
    Joe, if not SCNT, the what process are you describing that takes the genome out of a donor cell and puts it into the egg of another organism?

    Got it- SCNT is also used in other applications besides egg implantation- that is what my confusion was.

    However I have noticed you still haven't produced any evidence to refute my claim.

    Is that ever going to happen or are false accusations the best you can do?

    ReplyDelete
  84. Derick:
    How about you - what do you call yourself? Muslim? Christian? Atheist? Buddhist?

    None of the above- or maybe all of the above.

    I don't think any one of them has it right and I doubt the designer or Creator is that vain it needs constant worship.

    What I do accept is that the data points to a design inference- there is a purpose.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti wrote:

    ”The scientist enjoys a privilege denied the theologian. To any question, even one central to his theories, he may reply “I’m sorry but I do not know.” This is the only honest answer to the question posed by the title of this chapter. We are fully aware of what makes a flower red rather than white, what it is that prevents a dwarf from growing taller, or what goes wrong in a paraplegic or a thalassemic. But the mystery of species eludes us, and we have made no progress beyond what we already have long known, namely, that a kitty is born because its mother was a she-cat that mated with a tom, and that a fly emerges as a fly larva from a fly egg.”

    ReplyDelete
  86. Derick childress:

    "On an unrelated note, In one post you refer to the "perfect order of the natural world around us," but in the *very next post*you call it "an already unbalanced natural world." Which is it - perfectly ordered, or already unbalanced? "
    ======================

    The natural world was created perfect and remains balanced if left untouched or at the very least respected by humans. Neither has happened and our Global environment is close to being screwed beyond repair. Your flipant attitute exposes you down to your atheism unterhosen. Had you actually been a true Christian, you would have agreed that God created the natural world perfect, even if you still thought he used Evo-mechanics.

    But your ignorance on the biblical subject speaks volumes.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Derick childress:

    "Your comment has *absolutely nothing* to do with Robert's argument. Robert's remark was about somatic cell nuclear transfer, not about "blah blah blah nazi blah evil scientists blah atheist chaos blah!"
    ====================

    It had everything to do with the subject since he's the knucklehead who brought up the stupid subject. The fact that you didn't like my response is tough. Your above Childressish response ("blah blah blah nazi blah evil scientists blah atheist chaos blah!") does indeed expose your own absence of maturity.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Dr Hunter,

    I posted a response to your post of August 25, 2010 4:19 PM this morning, and it appeared on this thread after two tries.

    But now it's gone. I'll try again later, if this one sticks.

    ReplyDelete
  89. JoeG-

    Final question-

    Does the cloned mouflon look like a mouflon (genome donor) or a domestic sheep (egg donor)? What does it resemble? Did its genotype determine its phenotype? Does it resemble a domestic lamb, as you claim it should?

    http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/10_01/cloned_sheep.shtml

    http://www.oceanwideimages.com/enlargeImage.asp?pID=10601&cID=505&rp=search.asp%3Fs%3DDomestic+Sheep%26p%3D1

    ReplyDelete
  90. And don't weasel out by mentioning developmental failure of distant species, or claiming that everything in a genus is the same anyway.

    Oh, and in Venter's experiment, what directs the bacteria? Genome, or some mystery component?

    ReplyDelete
  91. RobertC:
    Does the cloned mouflon look like a mouflon (genome donor) or a domestic sheep (egg donor)?

    It's the same animal- a mouflon is a type of sheep.

    IOW Robert all you are doing is proving my point.

    page 53 of "The Design of Life"

    "Placing foreign DNA into an egg does not change the species of the egg or embryo. (The rare exceptions to this rule involve animals that could normally mate to produce hybrids.)"

    ReplyDelete
  92. Joe G said: "As I said if you put cat DNA into a dog egg you will not get a cat."

    Joe, what would happen if you were to place the genome of of a pug into the egg of a great dane, and the resultant egg was viable and survived to term? What would that animal be?

    That's right, a dog!

    But, what kind of dog do you think it would most resemble?

    If you said anything other than 'pug', go back 5 spaces.

    ReplyDelete
  93. RobertC:
    Oh, and in Venter's experiment, what directs the bacteria?

    Venter's experiment doesn't have anything to do with anything I have said.

    Let's see what would happen to Venter's synthesized DNA without a ready-made home...

    ReplyDelete
  94. Mouflon:

    The mouflon (Ovis aries orientalis[1] group) is a subspecies group of the wild sheep Ovis aries. Populations of Ovis aries can be partitioned into the mouflons (orientalis group) and urials or arkars (vignei group).[2] The mouflon is thought to be one of the two ancestors for all modern domestic sheep breeds.[3][4]

    Ho hum...

    ReplyDelete
  95. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  96. And Derick- has anyone done such an experiment?

    That is has someone taken pug DNA and placed it into a great dane egg?

    Could you please provide a reference?

    ReplyDelete
  97. Derick:
    Joe, what would happen if you were to place the genome of of a pug into the egg of a great dane, and the resultant egg was viable and survived to term? What would that animal be?

    That's right, a dog!

    But, what kind of dog do you think it would most resemble?

    If you said anything other than 'pug', go back 5 spaces.


    That has nothing to do with anything I have claimed.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Venter's experiment has everything to do with what you've said. It demonstrates the genome, and not mystery factor x controls the show.

    And:
    1) Not every animal in the same genus is 'identical.' Species means something.

    2) The experiments show the donor genome controls the appearance, body plan, color, etc., of the animal. It matters not that they are similar animals.

    More distant cloning to date fails for reasons that have nothing to do with this point, and more to do with immune compatibility, mitochondrial/genomic compatibility etc.

    The quote on Page 53 is intensely misleading-as it is meant to be. It suggests the experiments have proceeded successfully, that indeed a cat nucleus and a dog egg have produced a dog. This is false. What is produced is a pile of mush. In the few successes, the progeny are specified by the donor genome.

    ReplyDelete
  99. "And Derick- has anyone done such an experiment?

    That is has someone taken pug DNA and placed it into a great dane egg?"

    How about a Afgan and a Yellow lab?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/photogalleries/dogclone/photo3.html

    Does snuppy look like the donor of the nucleus or the egg?

    Simple question. I grant they are both dogs-but this is entirely besides the point!!!

    ReplyDelete
  100. RobertC:
    Venter's experiment has everything to do with what you've said.

    I was talking about animals and development.

    So, no, Venter's experiment doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

    It demonstrates the genome, and not mystery factor x controls the show.

    Umm they started with an already existing cell.

    The DNA did not make the cell.

    1) Not every animal in the same genus is 'identical.' Species means something.

    "Species" is just our way of trying to classify organisms.

    And most likely we are wrong in many cases.

    2) The experiments show the donor genome controls the appearance, body plan, color, etc., of the animal. It matters not that they are similar animals.

    No one knows where the body plan is- as in what determines it.

    Geez are you just going to ignore the geneticists who support my claim?

    The quote on Page 53 is intensely misleading-as it is meant to be. It suggests the experiments have proceeded successfully, that indeed a cat nucleus and a dog egg have produced a dog.

    It doesn't suggest anything of the kind.

    You are just being an obtuse jerk.

    ReplyDelete
  101. RobertC:
    Simple question. I grant they are both dogs-but this is entirely besides the point!!!

    It is not besides the point.

    My point is the DNA does not determine the type of organism.

    The egg definitely has some say in the type of organism that develops.

    However it may just influenecve and not determine.

    No one knows what determines the final form.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Again from Dr Denton:

    "It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it. Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation."

    ReplyDelete
  103. "Geez are you just going to ignore the geneticists who support my claim?"

    Yes. I see only one quote from an Italian creationist. No context, no defense, no knowledge of Hox genes, or refutation of the experimental demonstration that genes determine body plan and genome codes for phenotype. Got any thing else? Maybe something with some facts? Some point?

    I mean, seriously, in reply to the demonstration that genome controls a host cell, you state they started with a genome and a cell.

    In response to the pictures above, you say they are the same genus or species, or both dogs.

    Your original statement:

    "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    Is just false.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Denton, the ex-DI fellow? You've got to be kidding

    And what an obtuse quote mine.

    "Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation."

    That says a few percent of known genes control form generation. Umm. Yeah-isn't that the opposite of your point? What is the prediction-that most of known genes should control form generation? Lol. Silly stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  105. RobertC:
    Yes. I see only one quote from an Italian creationist.

    He is a geneticist, not a creationist.

    And you don't have anything.

    "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    You say that ios false yet you have yet to provide anything that refutes it.

    All you have is taking the DNA from one animal and place it into the egg of the same animal.

    ReplyDelete
  106. RobertC:
    That says a few percent of known genes control form generation.

    No one knows what DETERMINES the final form.

    There isn't any evidence that it is the DNA.

    ReplyDelete
  107. "Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation."

    RobertC:
    That says a few percent of known genes control form generation.

    controlling influence- learn how to read...

    ReplyDelete
  108. "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    1- Gaur/ cow-> same type of animal

    2- wildcats/ cats-> same type of animal

    3- Mouflon/ sheep -> same type of animal

    4- Dog/ dog -> same type of animal


    However this is my fault. I should have said:

    "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another different type of animal - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    It was wrong to assume people would have understood that without having to say it.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Joe-
    can you provide a single example in which a genome of one animal is placed in the egg of another "type" of animal and the progeny resembles the egg donor?

    ReplyDelete
  110. Have I been banned? I've tried to post twice this afternoon, and both posts have disappeared.

    ReplyDelete
  111. David, probably not. Many people have had problems posting. I've had success by not having any html tags and posting in smaller chunks.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Joe said: ""If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another different type of animal - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    while also listing known experiments that have been pointed out to him:

    1- Gaur/ cow-> same type of animal
    2- wildcats/ cats-> same type of animal
    3- Mouflon/ sheep -> same type of animal
    4- Dog/ dog -> same type of animal"

    Joe, in each and every one of these experiments, the organism that developed resembled the genome donor, NOT the egg donor.

    What in the world makes you think that this would not be the case with more 'different' egg/genome combinations?

    What in the world makes you think that genotype doesn't determine phenotype?

    Sometimes I think you're just pulling our legs.

    ReplyDelete
  113. JoeG: "If we take the genome of one animal and put it into the egg of another different type of animal - either nothing develops- no survivors- or it resembles the egg donor."

    If by 'type' of animal, you mean another Genus, then yes, this has been unsuccessful-the embryos die (which renders "or it resembles the egg donor") superfluous.

    This is why I find the Design of Life Quote:

    "Placing foreign DNA into an egg does not change the species of the egg or embryo. (The rare exceptions to this rule involve animals that could normally mate to produce hybrids.)"

    Is so wrong. It is simply a lie. It should read:

    In every case where interspecies nuclear transfer has succeeded, the species of the egg and embryo match that of the genome donor. (These successes are between related species). Further, in all intraspecies cases, the breed, etc. of the progeny matches that of the genome donor. Nuclear transfer between more distant species has failed to produce viable progeny.

    Note also there is no logic here-you're using the technical failure of experiments to try to argue against the power of genes over phenotype. It simply isn't proof. If you had a cat genome transferred into a dog egg, an you got a dog or a hybrid, that'd be something. But alas, no.

    Please also note we have already established the closeness of the relation is totally irrelevant to the discussion-in successful cloning, the gender, breed or species, body size, shape, color, etc. is determined by the donated genome.

    "RobertC:
    That says a few percent of known genes control form generation.

    controlling influence- learn how to read..."

    Are you kidding me? That's your come back? 'Control' vs. 'controlling influence.' Yeah, I totally misread that one, tough guy. You're the one that used a quote that says a few percent of known genes control (oh wait, exert controlling influence over) form in defense of your misguided notion that genes don't determine body plan.

    ReplyDelete
  114. David:

    I'm afraid you are another victim of Google's bugs. You wrote in a mysteriously deleted post:


    ####################################
    David has left a new comment on your post "The Gene Myth":

    (This is my second try today at posting the following. My previous effort disappeared.

    By now, after all of the intervening craziness, I will be surprised if Dr Hunter even bothers to look at it.)

    Cornelius Hunter said...

    David:

    ===
    That’s not helpful. I was hoping you would provide quotes from Darwin’s passage to support your claim instead of just repeating your claim.
    ===

    I did. What is it about "it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace" that you don't understand?

    I understand "it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace” alright, but I don’t construe it as the conclusion of the argument by Darwin in your quoted passage.

    Recall your formulation:

    Yes. If I interpret measurement A according to theory X, and then use that interpretation as confirming X, then that is circular.

    As I said earlier, "it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace” is a supporting point that assumes arguendo that Ibla and Proteolepas have lost structures as a consequence of being parasitic barnacles. Quite a reasonable assumption, but not a conclusion of an argument.

    As second opinion pointed out,

    The only thing Darwin wants to demonstrate is that under the assumption that the ToE is true The Law of Compensation can be explained by natural selection. And he provides examples for that. Neither are these or the paragraph meant to prove the ToE in general nor natural selection in particular are true.

    For you to say in response,

    Fine, but you cannot then use that interpretation in an argument for evolution.

    is not a rebuttal, because you haven’t shown that Darwin’s argument in the quoted passage is an argument for evolution. You haven’t rebutted our position that it is an argument about entailments of natural selection.

    Bear in mind that this is Chapter 5 of Origin, entitled “Laws of Variation.” Chapter 4, entitled “Natural Selection,” has already dealt with arguments for.
    ####################################




    Now my response:

    ===
    As I said earlier, "it loses more or less completely its own shell or carapace” is a supporting point that assumes arguendo that Ibla and Proteolepas have lost structures as a consequence of being parasitic barnacles. Quite a reasonable assumption, but not a conclusion of an argument.
    ===

    Darwin asserts, three times, that the carapace was lost. That assertion entails evolution. Agreed?

    ReplyDelete
  115. Dr Hunter, it was most kind of you to rescue my post from the ether.

    And I thank you for your patience in discussing this issue with me. Yes, I agree in part with your final point. Darwin did assume evolution (arguendo) when he said “…it loses more or less completely it own shell or carapace…” and “…the whole anterior part of the head is reduced to the merest rudiment…”

    I still don’t see this as circular, for the reasons I and others have repeatedly given, but I am content to respectfully rest my case.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Derick,

    Sometimes I think you're just pulling our legs.

    Of course he is. Joe's joke is that people take him seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Derick:
    Joe, in each and every one of these experiments, the organism that developed resembled the genome donor, NOT the egg donor.

    It was the SAME type of animal.

    IOW the organism resembled the body plan of the egg donor.

    What in the world makes you think that this would not be the case with more 'different' egg/genome combinations?

    That has been tried and it didn't work out.

    What in the world makes you think that genotype doesn't determine phenotype?

    What is your evidence that it does?

    ReplyDelete
  118. RobertC:
    If by 'type' of animal, you mean another Genus, then yes, this has been unsuccessful-the embryos die (which renders "or it resembles the egg donor") superfluous.

    What is your point?

    As for Genus and species- again those are OUR concepts and have no meaning outside of our classification scheme.


    "Placing foreign DNA into an egg does not change the species of the egg or embryo. (The rare exceptions to this rule involve animals that could normally mate to produce hybrids.)"

    Is so wrong. It is simply a lie.

    How is it wrong?

    Did you read the book?

    I am still waiting for you to provide the evidence that demonstrates that the genome DETERMINES the type of organism.

    ReplyDelete
  119. David,

    Your problem is the vast majority think your position is a joke.

    And that is because you cannot provide any positive evidence for it.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti wrote a book titles (in English) "Why is a Fly Not a Horse?"

    In it he exposes the claim that the genome determines the body plan as being nonsense/ unsupported by the data.

    Jonathan Wells is a developmental biologist- he has written several essays explaining what I have been saying.

    The point being not one of you evos knows as much as they do about genetics nor embryonic development.

    ReplyDelete
  121. nanobot:
    can you provide a single example in which a genome of one animal is placed in the egg of another "type" of animal and the progeny resembles the egg donor?

    As far as I know nothing has ever fully developed.

    Clones, BTW, are not identical to their "parent"/ DNA donor- the egg has some influencing control.

    ReplyDelete
  122. “Yet by the late 1980s it was becoming obvious to most genetic researchers, including myself, since my own main research interest in the ‘80s and ‘90s was human genetics, that the heroic effort to find the information specifying life’s order in the genes had failed. There was no longer the slightest justification for believing that there exists anything in the genome remotely resembling a program capable of specifying in detail all the complex order of the phenotype. The emerging picture made it increasingly difficult to see genes in Weismann’s “unambiguous bearers of information” or to view them as the sole source of the durability and stability of organic form. It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it. Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation. From being “isolated directors” of a one-way game of life, genes are now considered to be interactive players in a dynamic two-way dance of almost unfathomable complexity, as described by Keller in The Century of The Gene.”
    Michael John Denton page 172 of Uncommon Dissent

    ReplyDelete
  123. JoeG-

    What do you think controls body plan?

    What evidence do you have?

    Just curious.

    Biologists know the role of individual genes, say, Hox genes in determining body plan. They have experimentally perturbed them and observed their controlling influence over body plan.

    Biologists have also inserted entire genomes into foreign cells, recovering the traits of the donor of the genome.

    And again, I'm not interested in Jonathan Wells and his Italian creationist colleague, unless you care to make some point. Simply dropping their names isn't exactly an argument of any sort.

    And ID friend Denton's "It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it" is not exactly persuasive in the face of evidence. Its complicated, therefore falsified? There is interplay with the cell?

    So what makes a fly a fly and not a horse if not its genome? Some Vital spark?

    ReplyDelete
  124. I guess we were overdue for another Joe Gallien tardgasm. Oh well....

    ReplyDelete
  125. RobertC:

    Biologists know the role of individual genes, say, Hox genes in determining body plan.


    Hox genes do not determine body plan.

    A PAX 6 gene from a mouse was inserted into a fruit fly and the fruit fly developed fruit fly eyes, not mouse eyes.

    They have experimentally perturbed them and observed their controlling influence over body plan.

    That is very different from determining body plan and final adult type.

    That said each of our cells contain the same DNA yet they are very different.

    But anyway I am still waiting for some peer-reviewed paper- any scientific data- which demonstrates that the genome determines final form.

    What do you have?

    ReplyDelete
  126. RobertC:
    Biologists have also inserted entire genomes into foreign cells, recovering the traits of the donor of the genome.

    It isn't an exact copy of the genome donor...

    ReplyDelete
  127. Drosophila and the Molecular Genetics of Pattern Formation: Genesis of the Body Plan

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=mboc4&part=A3840

    ReplyDelete
  128. Pax6 is a master control gene specifying the formation of eyes by turning on other eye genes.

    The flies developed fly eyes everywhere mouse Pax6 was expressed in the fly because the genes downstream from the expressed mouse Pax6 are the genes for fly eyes.

    Soo, what's your point?

    "That said each of our cells contain the same DNA yet they are very different."

    Are all genes expressed in all cells, Joe? Or is gene expression regulated?

    Oh, and Joe, you dodged the question-if not genes, what do you think controls body plan?

    ReplyDelete
  129. RobertC:
    Drosophila and the Molecular Genetics of Pattern Formation: Genesis of the Body Plan

    It doesn't say what makes the fruit fly a fruit fly.

    Oh, and Joe, you dodged the question-if not genes, what do you think controls body plan?

    What controls it isn't my point.

    What DETERMINES it is my point- and no one knows.

    THAT is the point.

    And without that Universal Common Descent is untestable...

    ReplyDelete
  130. "That said each of our cells contain the same DNA yet they are very different."

    RobertC:
    Are all genes expressed in all cells, Joe? Or is gene expression regulated?

    Gene expression is regulated but there isn't any evidence that genes determine the type of cell to be formed.

    ReplyDelete
  131. RobertC:
    The flies developed fly eyes everywhere mouse Pax6 was expressed in the fly because the genes downstream from the expressed mouse Pax6 are the genes for fly eyes.

    There aren't any genes for fly eyes.

    That is the whole point.

    ReplyDelete
  132. A few of the many genes known to be involved in fly eye morphogenesis:

    buttonhead
    clift (Eyes absent)
    crumbs
    distal-less
    empty spiracles
    eyeless
    labial
    orthodenticle
    optomotor blind
    polyhomeotic
    sina oculis
    tailless

    from: http://www.sdbonline.org/fly/aimorph/eye.htm

    ReplyDelete
  133. Thanks David. Joe has apparently regressed to saying anything.

    "Gene expression is regulated but there isn't any evidence that genes determine the type of cell to be formed."

    Umm, Joe-your last post introduced Pax6 as the determinant of eye formation!?! Does Pax6 not specify the type of cell(s) to be formed?

    And numerous experiments have knocked down, knocked out, or overexpressed a gene to induce the differentiation of embryonic stem cells into distinct lineages. Moreover, microarray and proteomic approaches allow profiling of what genes are activated in differentiation.

    Google "Cell fate determinant RNAi" if you don't believe me.

    ReplyDelete
  134. RobertC:
    Umm, Joe-your last post introduced Pax6 as the determinant of eye formation!?!

    No it didn't. It's a switch.

    Does Pax6 not specify the type of cell(s) to be formed?

    No- it has nothing to do with the type of eye.

    ReplyDelete
  135. David:
    A few of the many genes known to be involved in fly eye morphogenesis:

    Now scientists just need to start mutating some of those genes to see if they can get a different type of eye to develop.

    ReplyDelete
  136. I said:

    There aren't any genes for fly eyes.

    David responds with a list of genes involved in fly-eye development.

    Is it all of those genes together that makes a fly eye different from a mouse eye?

    ReplyDelete
  137. Joe asked: "Is it all of those genes together that makes a fly eye different from a mouse eye?"

    Is it something else besides instructions contained within the genome that makes a fly eye different from a mouse eye?

    ReplyDelete
  138. Derick:
    Is it something else besides instructions contained within the genome that makes a fly eye different from a mouse eye?

    Instructions?

    Geez if there are instructions within the genome then the current theory of evolution is nonsense.

    Or do you think the sequence- DNA- are the instructions?

    My point is there isn't any evidence eyes- the type of eye- are reducible to some DNA sequence/ sequences.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Joe said: "Geez if there are instructions within the genome then the current theory of evolution is nonsense."

    I don't even know why I try sometimes. What does that even mean? I recognize some english words in there, but are you actually suggesting that 'evolutionists' don't think that genes are sets of instructions? And how in the world would that mean evolution is nonsense?

    Joe, I'll ask you again what several people here have asked you that you haven't responded to:

    If physiological traits are passed from parent to offspring, why is that? What is the mechanism of this heredity? is it something other than DNA? Just answer this simple question, please.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Derick:
    If physiological traits are passed from parent to offspring, why is that?

    Traits are NOT body plans.

    The type of eye is NOT a trait.

    The color of my eyes is a trait.

    The color of my hair is a trait.

    Neither the color of my hair, nor the color of my eyes make me human.

    And Derick, I understand that evotards think that genes are sets of instructions.

    The problem is there isn't any evidence for that claim.

    OTOH I say the instructions are embedded in the cell(s), including the DNA- just as the hard drive isn't the software- the software is added to the physical drive.

    ReplyDelete
  141. RobertC said...

    Thanks David. Joe has apparently regressed to saying anything.


    Actually it's always been his standard M.O. Many of us have been following the Joe G / John Paul / IDGuy IDiot extravaganza on various C/E boards for years.

    It's always a different circus, but the same Joe G clown.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Joe G said: "Traits are NOT body plans."

    Of course traits are not body plans. Birds are not owls.

    But body plans are traits.

    "The type of eye is NOT a trait."

    Of course the type of eye is a trait. What in blue blazes do you think 'trait' means?

    "And Derick, I understand that evotards think that genes are sets of instructions."

    ??????

    Change "evotards think genes are sets of instructions" to "geneticists and everyone even the slightest bit knowledgeable about genes think genes are sets of instructions," And you're well on your way to a coherent statement.

    "I say the instructions are embedded in the cell(s), including the DNA"

    For the umpteenth time Joe, WHAT PART OF THE CELL, BESIDES THE DNA MOLECULE, CARRIES THE INSTRUCTIONS?

    "The problem is there isn't any evidence for that claim. (That genes are sets of instructions.)"

    Joe, now I'm starting to understand your "no evidence that chemical processes are responsible for evolution" stance. If, in your book, there's not even evidence that genes are sets of instructions for building proteins, then there's not evidence for anything, is there?

    ReplyDelete
  143. Derick:
    But body plans are traits.

    They are?

    Can you provide a reference for that claim?

    Of course the type of eye is a trait. What in blue blazes do you think 'trait' means?

    The color is a trait.

    We can actually study that trait and what affects it.

    But we cannot study what type of eye-

    Where are you getting your definition of trait from?

    Change "evotards think genes are sets of instructions" to "geneticists and everyone even the slightest bit knowledgeable about genes think genes are sets of instructions," And you're well on your way to a coherent statement.

    Geneticist Giuseppe Serminti doesn't think so- neither does Dr Denton.

    I bet I could find many geneticists who do not agree with you.

    I say the instructions are embedded in the cell(s), including the DNA"

    For the umpteenth time Joe, WHAT PART OF THE CELL, BESIDES THE DNA MOLECULE, CARRIES THE INSTRUCTIONS?

    You don't have a clue what I am talking about, do you?

    The DNA itself is not the instructions just as the hard-drive is not the instructions.

    DNA can be an information carrier just as CDs are information carriers.

    The difference is DNA actually helps carry out the instructions it carries.

    And then there is the rest of the cell- software just needs a place it can be stored- just as computers have various information storage devices.

    see biological information in 3 dimensions

    If, in your book, there's not even evidence that genes are sets of instructions for building proteins, then there's not evidence for anything, is there?

    That has nothing to do with anything I have said.

    Why do evotards always have to throw in at least one false accusation?

    ReplyDelete
  144. Derick you really should read the following:

    “Yet by the late 1980s it was becoming obvious to most genetic researchers, including myself, since my own main research interest in the ‘80s and ‘90s was human genetics, that the heroic effort to find the information specifying life’s order in the genes had failed. There was no longer the slightest justification for believing that there exists anything in the genome remotely resembling a program capable of specifying in detail all the complex order of the phenotype. The emerging picture made it increasingly difficult to see genes in Weismann’s “unambiguous bearers of information” or to view them as the sole source of the durability and stability of organic form. It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it. Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation. From being “isolated directors” of a one-way game of life, genes are now considered to be interactive players in a dynamic two-way dance of almost unfathomable complexity, as described by Keller in The Century of The Gene.”
    Michael John Denton page 172 of Uncommon Dissent

    IOW you don't know what you are talking about...

    ReplyDelete
  145. Examples of Genetic Traits


    Genetic Traits:

    Traits are small parts of the phenotype of an organism, such as the red color seen in the flower petals.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Thorton:

    It's always a different circus, but the same Joe G clown.

    When I go to the circus, I don’t try to talk to the clowns. They’re not interested in conversation; they’re exclusively interested in clowning.

    ReplyDelete
  147. david:
    When I go to the circus, I don’t try to talk to the clowns.

    Right you go there to check out all those little kids hoping one gets away from the parents...

    ReplyDelete
  148. I don't know much about clowns, but apparently (for some clowns) a circus is not essential.

    ReplyDelete
  149. You don't appear to know much about anything...

    ReplyDelete
  150. Hey Derick- here is another site on traits:

    heredity and traits

    caution- the contents support my claims...

    ReplyDelete