Want to indoctrinate your children with bad philosophy? Try Camp Quest, a camp designed for the children of nonbelievers. The idea is to focus on science and strictly avoid religion. "The whole thing," said Kentucky lawyer Edwin Kaginv who started the camp in 1996, "is to show the virtues of evidence and inquiry and reason over visions and faith."
Unfortunately avoiding religion isn't always so easy. In fact, those who claim to be religion-free are probably soaking in it. For example, how does Camp Quest handle evolution's religious claims. One would think Kaginv's religion-free zone would avoid altogether Darwin's metaphysical theory. Or perhaps the camp elucidates the religious foundations of evolution so young minds can be on the look out when they encounter it in their public school science class.
Predictably enough though, Camp Quest does neither but instead deceptively presents evolution as a scientific theory. Last year one camp featured a week-long session based on evolution. And the outspoken evolutionist Richard Dawkins supports Camp Quest. Nonbelieving parents should know that Camp Quest is hardly a religious-free experience for their children.
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Many people have tolde me that they had simple faith that science would someday answer the big questions abut origins. So, in all probability, this camp's philosophy is just as faith based as any religion.
ReplyDeleteDr. Hunter,
ReplyDeleteAs usual, I checked out original sources. From http://www.camp-quest.org/
"Camp Quest is the first residential summer camp in the history of the United States for the children of Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view.
The purpose of Camp Quest is to provide children of freethinking parents a residential summer camp dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.
Camp Quest was first held in 1996 and until 2002 was operated by the Free Inquiry Group, Inc. (FIG) of Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky. The idea for the project originated with Edwin Kagin and he and his wife Helen served as Camp Directors for the first ten years of the original Camp Quest, retiring at the end of the 2005 camp session.
Currently Camp Quest, Inc., an independent 501(c)(3) educational non-profit, operates the Ohio Camp Quest and works to coordinate with and support the other independently governed Camp Quest programs. Camp Quest, Inc. is funded in part through a generous grant from the Institute for Humanist Studies."
I believe it is generally recognized Humanism is a philosophical position (i.e. "world view").
"Religion" is a loaded term which often suggests organized religions believing in supernatural God or Gods. However, if religion is considered to be more generally a philosophical world view, then Humanism is a religion.
To avoid the appearance of engaging in equivocation, I suggest you offer a better understanding of what you mean by the term "religion".
Specifically, do you consider Humanism to be a religion?
Do you have any original source literature where the Camp Quest organization, itself, is claiming to be religion free or even religion neutral?
To avoid the appearance of engaging in equivocation, I suggest you offer a better understanding of what you mean by the term "religion".
ReplyDeleteI trust that Cornelius agrees with me and accepts the following definitions and examples:
Bertrand Russell wrote:
"If a religion is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Gödel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one."
H. Eves wrote:
"Suppose we loosely define a religion as any discipline whose foundations rest on an element of faith, irrespective of any element of reason which may be present. [Atheism], for example, would be a religion under this definition. But mathematics would hold the unique position of being the only branch of theology possessing a rigorous demonstration of the fact that it should be so classified." — In Mathematical Circles, Boston: Prindle, Weber and Schmidt, 1969.
Thought:
ReplyDelete===
To avoid the appearance of engaging in equivocation, I suggest you offer a better understanding of what you mean by the term "religion".
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Please explain how "God wouldn't create the mosquito" is not religious.
Until you understand the religion in evolution, you won't understand evolution.
"Please explain how "God wouldn't create the mosquito" is not religious."
ReplyDeleteYou are arguing, yet again, that a single negative argument against creationism is religious. You are ignoring, yet again, that biology is not built on this negative argument against creationism, but a positive argument based on observation and evidence.
Dr Hunter,
ReplyDeleteI traced the quote you used in the opening post to the Discovery Institute which provided a link to an article in The-Scientist.com.
"Kagin, who is an Eagle Scout, says that he launched Camp Quest after learning that the Boy Scouts of America were excluding the children of atheists from attending their summer camps, which also require that troops recite an oath promising to “…do my duty to God…,” among other pledges."
http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/56165/
The reason I asked you to expound on your definition of the term "religion" is because I can find no place where Camp Quest is making any claims of intent to "strictly avoid religion".
I will repeat my previous question...
Do you have any original source literature where the Camp Quest organization, itself, is claiming to be religion free or even religion neutral?
According to atheist William Provine:
ReplyDelete"No ultimate foundations for ethics exist, no ultimate meaning in life exists, and free will is merely a human myth. These are all conclusions to which Darwin came quite clearly.
I wonder how the camp will work those tenets into the curriculum alongside arts and crafts???
May God help those innocent kids and have mercy on the parents who send them to that 'cult' willingly.
Thought:
ReplyDeleteThe founder says it is for children of non believers, Dawkins supports it, and there are "no descriptions of oaths, no church services, no sermons on Sunday mornings." But who knows, maybe there intent is not to avoid religion.
Learned:
ReplyDelete"You are arguing, yet again, that a single negative argument against creationism is religious."
Wow, I didn't realize that.
Dr Hunter,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote...
"The founder says it is for children of non believers, Dawkins supports it, and there are "no descriptions of oaths, no church services, no sermons on Sunday mornings." But who knows, maybe there [sic] intent is not to avoid religion."
This seems like an equivocation to me. On one hand you are implying Camp Quest is avoiding the appearance of being religious because it has "no descriptions of oaths, no church services, no sermons on Sunday mornings" while simultaneously claiming it is obviously religious.
I will ask again, do you think Humanism is a religion? Do you think it is relevant that Camp Quest advertises its compatibility with Humanism? I suggest it is possible for some religions to forgo using rote and repetitive assertions but still be religious.
Or is this a situation of guilt by association? Are you saying if Dawkins supports it, it must be an insidious organization out to corrupt the youth and, therefore, prompting you to suggest warning parents this camp is presenting religious dogma as fact?
After all, it's not like "normal" camps which teach the existence of God as a fact, right?
Or, better yet, it is not like the Christian camps who tell children the only way they can get to heaven is by obeying religious leaders and taking Jesus into their hearts.
Or are you suggesting these Christian camps don't teach their Truths as facts?
On one hand you are implying Camp Quest is avoiding the appearance of being religious because it has "no descriptions of oaths, no church services, no sermons on Sunday mornings" while simultaneously claiming it is obviously religious.
ReplyDeleteA historical example might help:
It has no articles of faith and it parades its lack of dogma. All of the various types of neopagans are agreed only in one thing-their rejection of Christianity and the established churches and their conviction that there must be some way of make their religion more 'heroic' and 'Germanic' than Christianity.
(The Nordic Pagan Chant Grows Louder
by Albion Rossberlin
The New York Times, Aug 4, 1935; pg. 3-4)
History indicates that when people reject traditional "religion" they begin to establish their own. Given that the separation of Church and State began with ancient Jews condemning their kings/leader based on a higher law (a distinction continued in Christianity) one shouldn't be surprised that many modern religions which arise from rejecting traditional "religion" tend to be political and centered in the State. Many political movements even come to have their own eschatology based on a coming apocalypse which they promise salvation from and so on. In another time Al Gore would have been a corpulent bishop roaming the countryside selling indulgences, his charlatanism with respect to scientia/knowledge is merely modernized.
Camp Quest is a place where kids can come to swim, canoe, climb walls, ride horses, practice archery, sing songs, eat S'mores and socialize with other non-religious kids. These kids and their parents tend to be interested in science and empirical knowledge. Short activities are presented that encourage the kids to problem solve, and think independently. In short, Camp Quest is just like any other summer camp, without religious indoctrination. Most summer camps are run by religious organizations. Camp Quest provides parents with a secular alternative.
ReplyDeleteJeff Duncan Camp Quest Michigan, Camp Director
Jeff:
ReplyDelete==========
Camp Quest is a place where kids can come to swim, canoe, climb walls, ride horses, practice archery, sing songs, eat S'mores and socialize with other non-religious kids. These kids and their parents tend to be interested in science and empirical knowledge. Short activities are presented that encourage the kids to problem solve, and think independently. In short, Camp Quest is just like any other summer camp, without religious indoctrination. Most summer camps are run by religious organizations. Camp Quest provides parents with a secular alternative.
Jeff Duncan Camp Quest Michigan, Camp Director
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Without religious indoctrination? You are fooling yourself. Evolution is a religious theory. See for example:
http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2009/06/evolutions-religion-revealed.html
There is nothing religious about evolution. It is a fact. It has been proven time and time again, in every medium currently available to science. Predictions based upon existing species, the fossil record, microbiology, genetics, observable behaviors, physical characteristics etc... are always proven to jibe with the process of evolution through random mutation, heritability, and natural selection. No evidence has ever arisen that can falsify the truth of evolution. That is why it is AGAINST THE LAW in this country to teach creationism, intelligent design, or any other religious nonsense in our public schools. No REAL scientist doubts the fact of evolution by natural selection. You sir, occupy a lonely place in the world of those who have been trained in the sciences. You are truly a member of the lunatic fringe. Your motivation is obviously NOT rooted in the pursuit of true knowledge for the betterment of the human race. You have chosen to waste your one lifetime advancing pseudo-scientific nonsense, which is truly quite sad. I do pity you, and hope that someday you may choose to do something useful with your life.
ReplyDeleteJeff Duncan, Camp Quest of Michigan, Camp Director
Dr. Hunter.
ReplyDeleteMy son has been a past attendant of Camp Quest Michigan and will be attending again this year. In fact Jeff, last year, was the Counselor assigned to his Cabin. My son can assure you that Evolution is not taught as a religion. In fact he is urged to question evolution and to think critically about it as well as anything else. My son did attend for a few years a Catholic school and he can tell you what a religion is, and it is nothing like Camp Quest.
I think it is interesting that you make the claim that Evolution is a religion. Generally a Religion is taken as gospel truth with little debate except finer points within the religion, but no one doubts that the basic premises are true. Evolution by Natural Selection is a theory and as such is continuously being doubted by the scientific process. That is it is checked and tested against the known and knowable universe and observational phenomena. Theories are valid models of reality that explain something with a repeatable accuracy. The only thing repeatable about religion is the prayer, and only because it doesn't work. Pray all you want, the mountain still won't move, mustard seed.
Jeff Duncan is correct that no evidence has ever arisen that can falsify evolution. But the key point here is that Evolution is falsifiable. It can be checked. Is Religion put under the same scrutiny by it's practitioners?
Evolution is supported by the majority of scientists regardless of religion or non religion on the basis of it's some 40,000 scientific articles and papers, and vast body of evidence. Not because they have faith it is true. At least not unfounded faith but reasoned faith with evidence to back it up. However if and when evidence and a new hypothesis comes along that could change or even obliterate Neo-Darwinian evolution as the most explanatory theory or model for Biology I can assure you that with much debate and testing science will adopt the new theory as it comes into it's own. Science has done it before.
Can religion say the same?
Would a Christian be willing to throw out their belief in the fall from grace and the redemption of a Christ on evidence to the contrary? How about the fact of no evidence? Science doesn't take ideas as true with no evidence, why does religion?
objectivist43:
ReplyDelete====
My son has been a past attendant of Camp Quest Michigan and will be attending again this year. In fact Jeff, last year, was the Counselor assigned to his Cabin. My son can assure you that Evolution is not taught as a religion. In fact he is urged to question evolution and to think critically about it as well as anything else. My son did attend for a few years a Catholic school and he can tell you what a religion is, and it is nothing like Camp Quest.
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The religion shows up differently in evolution than in Roman Catholicism. When I pointed out that evolution is a religious theory, I did not mean that it has the look and feel of Roman Catholicism. As for Camp Quest urging campers to question evolution and to think critically, that sounds good. However, given Jeff's false, non scientific, dogmatic comments above ("It is a fact. It has been proven time and time again, in every medium currently available to science. ... Predictions based upon existing species, the fossil record, microbiology, genetics, observable behaviors, physical characteristics etc... are always proven to jibe with the process of evolution through random mutation, heritability, and natural selection. No evidence has ever arisen that can falsify the truth of evolution. ... No REAL scientist doubts the fact of evolution by natural selection. ... Your motivation is obviously NOT rooted in the pursuit of true knowledge for the betterment of the human race. You have chosen to waste your one lifetime advancing pseudo-scientific nonsense, which is truly quite sad. I do pity you, and hope that someday you may choose to do something useful with your life."), you'll understand that I have my doubts.
You see evolution is a theory that is unlikely according to the empirical evidence. So an objective presentation of the theory, which encourages healthy skepticism and allows for dissent would result in a group of non believing campers. It would be like presenting the flat earth theory without any pressure to accept it. Guess what's going to happen?
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I think it is interesting that you make the claim that Evolution is a religion. Generally a Religion is taken as gospel truth with little debate except finer points within the religion, but no one doubts that the basic premises are true.
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That precisely describes evolution.
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Evolution by Natural Selection is a theory and as such is continuously being doubted by the scientific process.
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Sure, you are certainly correct that natural selection is in doubt in many cases because it is problematic. But if you think evolution, per se, is continuously being doubted then you are ignorant of evolutionary thought. Indeed, if there is anything continuously being said about it, it is that evolution is a fact.
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Jeff Duncan is correct that no evidence has ever arisen that can falsify evolution.
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Because it is a religious theory.
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But the key point here is that Evolution is falsifiable. It can be checked.
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Do false predictions count?
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Evolution is supported by the majority of scientists regardless of religion or non religion on the basis of it's some 40,000 scientific articles and papers, and vast body of evidence. Not because they have faith it is true. At least not unfounded faith but reasoned faith with evidence to back it up. However if and when evidence and a new hypothesis comes along that could change or even obliterate Neo-Darwinian evolution as the most explanatory theory or model for Biology I can assure you that with much debate and testing science will adopt the new theory as it comes into it's own. Science has done it before.
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So a new theory is needed?
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Science doesn't take ideas as true with no evidence, why does religion?
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Sure, but in the case of evolution we have plenty of contra indicators, and yet it is mandated to be a fact. Sounds like religion to me.
Wow. What an interesting conversation! I was Googling Darwin camps, since my church is putting one on this summer, and I haven't found anything except this bit about Camp Quest. Camp Quest: Sounds exciting. Go do your thing. I'd love to hear more about how it's going.
ReplyDeleteI feel like this conversation has mostly been a debate about how people practice religion (or espouse evolution), rather than the premises of the religions (or theories) themselves. Evolution, as a theory, is BUILT IN to continually question and be skeptical and examine the evidence. Just because some folks are dogmatic about it doesn't mean evolution is a religion. People are dogmatic about capitalism, music, and many other things. Those aren't religions. Some religions are dogmatic, inherently. Some are not. Some people are able to have faith while still questioning and looking at evidence. Some people refuse to examine the evidence. I won't make sweeping statements about religion (Roman Catholic or otherwise) OR evolution, because to do so is unfair to the majority of folks who fall in those groups.
stinal81:
ReplyDelete===
Evolution, as a theory, is BUILT IN to continually question and be skeptical and examine the evidence.
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I didn't know that. Can you give examples?
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Just because some folks are dogmatic about it doesn't mean evolution is a religion.
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So when evolutionists argue their idea must be true because this world would not have been designed or created, it is not a religious or metaphysical claim?