tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post6220707464193061904..comments2024-01-23T02:32:28.567-08:00Comments on Darwin's God: Evolution’s Influence on the Life Sciences and Inter Cellular CommunicationUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-69642472071684995552014-01-12T12:20:43.552-08:002014-01-12T12:20:43.552-08:00Lino: First, what Deutsch states is gobbely-gook. ...Lino: First, what Deutsch states is gobbely-gook. I won't bother critiquing it, though that would be simple.<br /><br />Which isn’t genuine criticism because it can be applied to anything. Example?<br /><br />Lino: You see, the only thing that could bring about biological evolution is 'creative thought'='intelligence.'<br /><br />That’s gobbely-gook. I won't bother critiquing it, though that would be simple.<br /><br />See how that works?<br /><br />Lino: Let me just point out to you that Deutsch makes the very SAME claim that IDists do. Here's what I mean.<br /><br />First, I though what Deutsch states is gobbely-gook? Are you saying ID is gobbely-gook? Which is it?<br /><br />Second, Deutsch isn’t making the same claim. <br /><br /><i><b>So scientific discovery is profoundly unpredictable, despite the fact that it is determined by the laws of physics. I shall say more about this curious fact in the next chapter; in short, it is due to the existence of ‘emergent’ levels of explanation.</b> In this case, the upshot is that what science – and creative thought in general – achieves is unpredictable creation ex nihilo. So does biological evolution. No other process does.</i><br /><br />First, “In this case” refers to an ‘emergent’ level of explanation. Is ID’s designer ‘emergent’? <br /><br />Second, both biological evolution and human creative thought are examples of our current, best explanation for the universal growth of knowledge. Both are forms of trial and error. That’s Deutsch’s point.<br /><br />The real issue here is conflicting ideas about the growth of human knowledge. Example?<br /><br />Was there ever a time where ID’s designer didn’t know how to build any biological organism that ever existed, currently exists or could exist?Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-6087975516594167402014-01-11T09:11:15.261-08:002014-01-11T09:11:15.261-08:00Scott:
First, what Deutsch states is gobbely-gook...Scott:<br /><br />First, what Deutsch states is gobbely-gook. I won't bother critiquing it, though that would be simple.<br /><br />Let me just point out to you that Deutsch makes the very SAME claim that IDists do. Here's what I mean.<br /><br />Deutsch writes:<br /><br /><i> In this case, the upshot is that what science – and creative thought in general – achieves is unpredictable creation ex nihilo. So does biological evolution. No other process does.</i><br /><br />Here he EQUATES human intelligence--capable of viewing reality in a logical way, with ever deeper ways of understanding physical reality being considered "discoveries", or outbursts of 'creative thought'--with biological evolution!<br /><br />You see, the only thing that could bring about biological evolution is 'creative thought'='intelligence.'Lino Di Ischiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904662370561530557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-45270522976460854432014-01-10T10:47:50.783-08:002014-01-10T10:47:50.783-08:00Velikovskys:
Trial and error is what caused Non-E...Velikovskys:<br /><br /><i>Trial and error is what caused Non-Euclidean to come to exist.</i><br /><br />Really? And what is the basis of this belief?<br /><br />Here's this from Wikipedia:<br /><br /><i>The beginning of the 19th century would finally witness decisive steps in the creation of non-Euclidean geometry. Circa 1813, Carl Friedrich Gauss and independently around 1818, the German professor of law Ferdinand Karl Schweikart[9] had the <b>germinal ideas of non-Euclidean geometry worked out</b>, but neither published any results.</i><br /><br />Does this sound like: (a) trial and error, or (b) intellectual exploration of a mathematical theory?<br /><br />What was at stake was Euclid's "Fifth Postulate" which said that straight parallel lines stretch all the way out to infinity without ever touching. This 'postulate' (axiom) was in dispute already from the beginning---i.e., this was no "trial and error." The mathematicians knew what was troubling them from the start.<br /><br /><i>I am not sure what pure intelligence would look like, intelligence in part is the manipulation of knowledge, one of the ways knowledge is acquired is thru trial and error, models and data. Perhaps a working definition of intelligence. </i><br /><br />This response, and the next, are simply obfuscations. You know what intelligence is, since you have it, and employ it, and when someone makes a mistake in employing it, you can spot it. <br /><br />Is intelligence now like 'pornography,' undefinable, and, at a personal level, not knowable?<br /><br />When you say that "failure to reproduce <b>decides</b>" this is anthropomorphic. You say you don't know what "intelligence" is, but somehow you know that nature "decides." Humm. Interesting.<br /><br />But, nonetheless, the only basic operation that Darwinists can provide is that of 'trial and error': nature provides a 'trial' (mutation, as you see it), and 'errors' are eliminated--i.e., they don't reproduce. <br /><br />But, as I pointed out in my first post, it would require a huge amount of time--given the 'random walk' that is Brownian motion--for the signaling protein to make it to the cell membrane. A solution outside of 'trail and error' must be in play, and the only way one can overcome the severe limits of 'trial and error' is though intelligence. And, sure enough, we see there in the cell a structure that looks "designed' for its purpose.<br /><br />Someone once said, "It snowed so hard, I caught the drift." It snows, and snows, and snows. And, yet, Darwinist refuse to "catch the drift."Lino Di Ischiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904662370561530557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-7840265623723771492014-01-10T08:38:06.496-08:002014-01-10T08:38:06.496-08:00Lino
To get to "Non-Euclidean" geometry ...<b>Lino</b><br /><i>To get to "Non-Euclidean" geometry you have to change some axioms and definitions. It is all the work of intelligence, although trial and error is part of the deductive process. </i><br /><br />Trial and error is what caused Non-Euclidean to come to exist.<br /><br /><i>Nevertheless, what guides the development of both Euclidean and Non-Euclidean geometry along the way is pure intelligence</i><br /><br />I am not sure what pure intelligence would look like, intelligence in part is the manipulation of knowledge, one of the ways knowledge is acquired is thru trial and error, models and data. Perhaps a working definition of intelligence. <br /><br /><i> It is, after all, the intellect that decides that the trial is in error. This isn't a random process at work.</i><br /><br />In evolution , failure to reproduce decides. The random, up to a point since evolution is much more constrained than a human designer, is the trial. Even in human design there can be a random aspect to the trial.velikovskyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10957523527184649923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-27960746890075356462014-01-09T15:53:23.299-08:002014-01-09T15:53:23.299-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-54936579133388225972014-01-09T10:48:06.124-08:002014-01-09T10:48:06.124-08:00Zachriel:
Non-Euclidean geometry? >
It gets y...Zachriel:<br /><br /><i>Non-Euclidean geometry? ></i><br /><br />It gets you thrown out of college.<br /><br />Euclidean geometry has basic axioms definitions, and everything is deduced from those axioms and definitions. The entire mathematics of Euclidean geometry 'flow' from these first principles. To get to "Non-Euclidean" geometry you have to change some axioms and definitions. It is all the work of intelligence, although trial and error is part of the deductive process. Nevertheless, what guides the development of both Euclidean and Non-Euclidean geometry along the way is pure intelligence. It is, after all, the intellect that decides that the trial is in error. This isn't a random process at work.Lino Di Ischiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904662370561530557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-34232622300902693522014-01-09T08:27:44.183-08:002014-01-09T08:27:44.183-08:00Cornelis argues that, since because we can’t know ...Cornelis argues that, since because we can’t know that God didn’t choose to create the world we observe, evolutionary theory is religious. However, this is parochial since one could also argue we cannot know this same God did not choose to create the world we observe by creating the entire universe at once. And he could have done so at the very moment some great create discovery was supposedly made. <br /><br /><i>“Consider this: if a supernatural creator were to have created the universe at the moment when Einstein or Darwin or any great scientist (appeared to have) just completed their major discovery, then the true creator of that discovery (and of all earlier discoveries) would have been not that scientist but the supernatural being. So such a theory would deny the existence of the only creation that really did take place in the genesis of that scientist’s discoveries.<br /><br />And it really is creation. Before a discovery is made, no predictive process could reveal the content or the consequences of that discovery. For if it could, it would be that discovery. So scientific discovery is profoundly unpredictable, despite the fact that it is determined by the laws of physics. I shall say more about this curious fact in the next chapter; in short, it is due to the existence of ‘emergent’ levels of explanation. In this case, the upshot is that what science – and creative thought in general – achieves is unpredictable creation ex nihilo. So does biological evolution. No other process does.<br /><br />Creationism, therefore, is misleadingly named. It is not a theory explaining knowledge as being due to creation, but the opposite: it is denying that creation happened in reality, by placing the origin of the knowledge in an explanationless realm. Creationism is really creation denial – and so are all those other false explanations.”</i><br /><br />Excerpt From: David Deutsch. “The Beginning of Infinity.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/F1G6A.l<br /><br />IOW, rather than the scenario in which the entire universe is created all at once when some great completed some great discovery, creationism focuses on the claim that knowledge in specific spheres (to the topic at hand, the knowledge in the genomes of biological organisms) was “created” by a supernatural “designer”. But the effect is still the same. It’s an attempt to deny that creation actually took place. <br /><br />While creating the universe all at once, last Thursday, two weeks, or even 150 years ago is a possibility we cannot rule out either, Cornelius ignores these scenarios and the impact on knowledge it would have. In doing so, he’s selectively employing an argument against evolution that could be used to deny that absolutely anything was created. This is why his argument is parochial. Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-75928258501685091472014-01-08T11:34:51.686-08:002014-01-08T11:34:51.686-08:00Ian, I don't think you're 'owning up&#...Ian, I don't think you're 'owning up' to how bad things are for ev-biol. people.<br /><br />If you wanted cement poured down on a footing for your future house, and the closest the cement truck could get was 40 feet away, would you just keep pouring out cement from the truck with the hope that eventually it would find its way to the footing, or would you build a channel/canal by which to deliver the cement directly?<br /><br />I know how you would answer. And it point to how 'intelligence' solves problems of how to get material A at point B to point D. My first comment was intended to illustrate that the tubes function like a 'channel' would in the house-building problem, which is analogous to what the cell faces as it attempts to signal other cells.<br /><br /><i>Is Euclidean geometry 'out there' somewhere, waiting to be discovered or is it better understood a 'language' we have invented for modeling spatial relationships?</i><br /><br />Euclidean geometry is, essentially, 'out there' waiting to be discovered. But other than intelligent human beings, what objects, or beings, are able to "discover" anything? If you talk about 'discovery,' therefore, then you are talking about 'intelligence' at work via the process of abstraction.<br /><br />I disagree with you when you say that Euclidean Geometry is invented/used for "modeling spatial relationships." It was a way of understanding the logical--hence, intelligent--relationships that exist between different types of objects, and for analyzing again, in a strictly logical--hence intelligent--fashion what can be known and inferred about the relationships between objects. As such, it already signals that physical reality has an intelligent structure to it, a structure, I might add, that can be, and is, detected and understood.Lino Di Ischiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904662370561530557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-30879553585813512632014-01-08T09:21:43.470-08:002014-01-08T09:21:43.470-08:00Lino Di Ischia: Apply trial and error to Euclidean...<b>Lino Di Ischia</b>: <i>Apply trial and error to Euclidean Geometry. Where does that get you? </i><br /><br />Non-Euclidean geometry? <br /><br />Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-8223445215187168892014-01-08T08:19:18.104-08:002014-01-08T08:19:18.104-08:00I agree that the source of knowledge is an interes...I agree that the source of knowledge is an interesting question in itself. <i>Did</i> Einstein "intuit" or "create" his theories and what is the difference in meaning between the two? Is Euclidean geometry 'out there' somewhere, waiting to be discovered or is it better understood a 'language' we have invented for modeling spatial relationships?<br /><br />And returning to the OP, does a discovery in the laboratory which "contradicts" current thinking, fatally undermine a theory or, strengthen it by showing where it needs to be modified in order to be more accurate? In a complex organism, cells still need to signal to one another. This research has found that the method used is different from what was previously conjectured but that's all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11311738457332907931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-67416576190242638692014-01-07T19:15:26.126-08:002014-01-07T19:15:26.126-08:00Scott:
You hold the idea that knowledge in specif...Scott:<br /><br /><i>You hold the idea that knowledge in specific spheres comes from authoritative sources, rather than being genuinely created.</i><br /><br />Did Einstein "create" his General Theory of Relativity, or did he intuit it? Just how do you think intelligence works--nothing but trial and error?<br /><br />Apply trial and error to Euclidean Geometry. Where does that get you?Lino Di Ischiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904662370561530557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-25443953906650234872014-01-07T13:27:40.655-08:002014-01-07T13:27:40.655-08:00CH: If all of biology just happened to arise by ch...CH: If all of biology just happened to arise by chance events then organisms and their designs must be pretty straightforward.<br /><br />We create models for the expressed purpose of being found incomplete and in error to some degree. That's how we make progress. It's unclear why you would expect otherwise. Specific estimates of complexity are one such model. <br /><br />Oh wait, I've already explained why you would expect otherwise. <br /><br />Furthermore, aren't you assuming that any designer that could design complex organisms wouldn't itself be complex and, therefore, by your own criteria, need a designer, etc?<br /><br />Oh, wait, I've already explained why you would assume that as well. <br /><br />You hold the idea that knowledge in specific spheres comes from authoritative sources, rather than being genuinely created. Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11193595678064010528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-30360353601733199022014-01-07T09:55:52.905-08:002014-01-07T09:55:52.905-08:00Einstein's work on Brownian motion involved an...Einstein's work on Brownian motion involved an analysis based on what we now would call a "random walk." I suppose that if one were to do a simple calculation as to the time needed for any one 'signaling protein' to randomly travel from, say, half-way between the cell nucleus and membrane, out to the cell membrane, it would turn out to that it would take an astronomically long time for it to make it there. That means that 'intelligence' is needed to overcome these astronomically small odds. Lo, and behold, the cell has "tubes" that perform the task: a complex, specified structure.Lino Di Ischiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904662370561530557noreply@blogger.com