tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post5639786166660026640..comments2024-01-23T02:32:28.567-08:00Comments on Darwin's God: No Precambrian Rabbits: Evolution Must Be TrueUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-45093075212304787182017-01-14T07:16:45.816-08:002017-01-14T07:16:45.816-08:00so if something looks like a clock, I can't sa...so if something looks like a clock, I can't say it's a clock? If it looks like theres intelligent design behind it, I can't say that theres intelligent design behind it? Would you look at a space craft and say that it just exploded into existence, or would you say, that the intelligence of man planned and crafted and put this amazing machine together? and yet, our bodies alone are so complex that we blow a space craft out of the water in regards to design. The human eye alone would require over 200 computers to accomplish what our eyes accomplish. You cannot even look at a simple watch and say that this was not the product of planning and design. Maybe natural things LOOK designed, because they are. And we are just talking about a couple items...we haven't even discussed the checks and balanced in all of nature that keep YOU alive. Like magnetism...did you know that without it, we probably would not survive? If we were any closer to the sun, our planet would burn up. If we didn't have a water cycle, we would all die of thirst? there are so many simple and complex systems that work in harmony with each other. Have you also ever thought about what happens when an atom explodes? or a bomb? it destroys EVERYTHING. Then how does an explosion in space create so many beautiful and complex systems? When you look at science, and when you are not afraid of truth (the Bible), it takes a whole lot more faith to believe in evolution. Everything in science very easily is explained and comes to a logical conclusion in Scripture. You don't have to twist or manipulate anything. I choose (based on what the fossil record actually does show, along with many other compelling things) that there is a loving God and he created so many wonderfully vast and amazing things for us to enjoy. God didn't just create a fruit...he created many for us to enjoy and gave us each different tastes. He created many different kinds of climates, and many people who appreciate the different kinds of climates. He created not just one flower, or one kind of puppy, but many for us to enjoy and choose from the variety. And as for that blasted rabbit, you do have squirrels and other animals, even bats, mixed with the dinosaur fossils. I think that maybe what you should think about is whether you are just believing something thats being fed to you, or whether you really want to find the truth. Evolution is still a theory, and evolutionsists themselves recognize that it is a METHOD to attempt to discredit the Bible and therefore get rid of God. (and they use circular reasoning to do it...which in reality is no reasoning at all) No God=no authority. Man can do what he wishes. That sounds great to many, but man without authority will destroy himself. <br />Last thought, since I believe in a lovingly masterful creator...God loved YOU so much that he gave you eyebrows. That is how detailed and loving he was in creating you. Do you know what they do? They help to navigate sweat off your brow so that the salty fluid doesn't get in your eyes. Tell me that that happened by chance. oillymommahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04034577789507778305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-21151409098700231722017-01-14T07:00:04.394-08:002017-01-14T07:00:04.394-08:00these links take you to a website for back pain.
these links take you to a website for back pain.<br />oillymommahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04034577789507778305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-19895345188030421692016-08-31T14:15:06.337-07:002016-08-31T14:15:06.337-07:00Well, the problem here is equating an "Evolut...Well, the problem here is equating an "Evolutionist" with a scientist that researches Evolutionary Biology. Anyone who actually understands science would be the first to tell you that science doesn't claim evolution is a fact. That's impossible.<br /><br />Science is a process of exploration and observation that either falsifies or supports an educated guess (a hypothesis). Science can prove something "false" but science can never prove something as truth. Truth is the domain of religion, philosophy, and mathematics. Science can only take an educated guess, contrast it against another educated guess then test how well one of those guesses holds up. <br /><br />Scholars used to believe in science as truth. Back in the 19th century. Scholars felt they could certain and prove things and so forth. This attitude eventually came to be called "logical positivism" and it is outright rejected by nearly everyone in the scientific community. The reasoning is that in order to be 100% certain about anything, you would have to be omnipotent. Basically, you'd have to be God in order to know ultimate truth about ANYTHING in science. Now once a theory can tested and re-tested and vetted by other scientists, a hypothesis gains enough support to be called a theory. A theory is basically an educated guess that has held up very well under professional scrutiny. That's it. No scientist is calling evolution a fact. That goes against what science is defined as. (hint: that's why it's called the "Theory of Evolution" instead of the "Law of Evolution" or the doctrine or whatever). <br /><br />Evolution can never be a fact. Anyone who claims this does not understand the fundamentals of science itself therefore cannot hope to rationally discuss something as complex as evolution. Chortlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01369364726387183635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-55740900344157651672009-09-15T08:25:06.816-07:002009-09-15T08:25:06.816-07:00Point 3:
"No, you merely claim that they'...Point 3:<br /><br />"No, you merely claim that they're making "religious" claims."<br /><br />Right, it is all the skeptic's fault. We're just making this up. There are files and files full of the evolutionists's religious claims, but we're just making it up. Everything from 17th century philosophical works to today's textbooks make religious and metaphysical assertions which cannot be known from the scientific empirical evidence, but we're just making it up. Unbelievable.<br /><br /><br />Point 4<br /><br />"you are a Christian (a "neutral" Christian, HA!) "<br /><br />Sounds like a Bogey Moment.<br /><br /><br /><br />Point 5<br /><br />"you argue for a model based almost solely on the holy text in which you place your faith."<br /><br />Yes, it definitely is a Bogey Moment. I never argued for any model, let alone one based "almost solely on the holy text." At this point the discussion is no longer rational.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-57859254494414175882009-09-15T08:24:50.139-07:002009-09-15T08:24:50.139-07:00Point 1:
"Again, I explained this in the imm...Point 1:<br /><br />"Again, I explained this in the immediately following part of my statement. Look, at least quote entire sentences if you want to make a point."<br /><br />I stopped quoting because it just got worse. Here is what you said:<br /><br />"No one has said that "ID/creationism must be false", and no one short of a complete fool would ever claim that. I am personally perfectly capable of entertaining the notion that ID is true, but as long as you consistently fail to show that it is, I won't assume that it is either.<br /><br />So you are judging evolutionists to be "complete fools." The fact the you are open to ID is irrelevant. Then you said:<br /><br />"I like how it always falls back on semantics with creationists. It always ends with you having to explain what "theory" means, that to "know" something doesn't necessarily mean absolute, 100%, completely flawless truth and that, as in this case, when evolutionists speak of creation as "must be wrong", they do so in the light of the actual evidence."<br /><br />Doesn't necessarily mean absolute, 100%, completely flawless? So what is it about John Ray's argument that god wouldn't create worms that is uncertain? What is it about Burnet's argument that god would only use natural causes that is uncertain? What is it about Leibniz's rebuke of Newton, accusing him of disrespect of god, that is uncertain? What is it about Kant's mandating a law-like origins that is uncertain? What is it about Wolfe mandating no miracles that is uncertain? What is it about Darwin mandating that god not work as man works that is uncertain? <br /><br />Ah, but wait, what about all the evidence? Burnet was bothered by the jagged coastlines and Kant was bothered by the planetary inclination angles. Darwin was bothered by the geographical distribution of bats, Wallace about the designs of flowers, de Beer about extinctions, Ken Miller about the mosquito, Ayala about wisdom teeth. You could write books about this stuff. <br /><br />So there's your evidence folks. Yes, it's all about science, after all, look at all the evidence. Wisdom teeth, mosquitos, extinctions, etc. The list goes on and on. As Gould summarized:<br /><br />"Odd arrangements and funny solutions are the proof of evolution—paths that a sensible God would never tread but that a natural process, constrained by history, follows perforce. No one understood this better than Darwin. Ernst Mayr has shown how Darwin, in defending evolution, consistently turned to organic parts and geographic distributions that make the least sense."<br /><br />Yeah, that's just hard science. Unbelievable. They proclaim this stuff for centuries, and then chastise you for not seeing the "evidence," saying it is you that are religiously driven.<br /><br /><br />Point 2:<br /><br />I wrote: "Evolutionists claim that creation is false and that their theory is a fact as much as gravity is a fact, and then they blame the critics when we analyze *their* claim. They want to have it both ways. Over and over they make this claim in the literature, and then when a critic shows up they backtrack, and blame the critic for overstating the claim. But we're using the exact idea and wording they use. Unbelievable."<br /><br />To which the evolutionist responds: *sigh...*<br /><br />Darwin's book was full of arguments against creation (such as those above) and he concluded, "We may safely attribute these structures to inheritance." He had *no idea* how the wonders of nature arose by themselves, but he was sure they must have. And evolution's predictions are always turning out false. Yet evolutionists mandate that evolution is a fact as much as gravity is a fact. That is ludicrous. As Ernst Mayr explained, the fact of evolution is so overwhelmingly established that it would be irrational to call it a theory. [What Evolution Is (New York: Basic Books, 2001) 264]. From Leibniz to Darwin to Coyne, every argument that proves evolution to be a fact (and there are many) rely on metaphysical claims.<br /><br />But after centuries of this, the evolutionist then says "sigh ..." when you point it out.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-85216299150764190652009-09-15T02:03:53.732-07:002009-09-15T02:03:53.732-07:00[Part Two]
"No one has said that "ID/cr...[<b>Part Two</b>]<br /><br /><i><b>"No one has said that "ID/creationism must be false"</b><br /><br />"Evolutionists are constantly saying this, and they then turn around and deny every saying any such thing. Unbelievable.</i>"<br /><br />Again, I explained this in the immediately following part of my statement. Look, at least quote entire sentences if you want to make a point. I could do what you do, pick out "evolutionists are constantly [...]" and claim that as a lie because we don't <i>always</i> do <i>everything</i> "constantly". However, doing that would be utterly pointless...<br /><br />"<i>This is classic. The atheist, who needs evolution, thinks he is neutral and he calls me, a Christian who can go either way with evolution, a creationist.</i>"<br /><br />I actually laughed out loud at this. This will probably be my last comment on this post, because I find little satisfaction in arguing with people who are clearly delusional.<br /><br />I would rebut your argument, but it is so childishly ignorant that I just don't know where to begin. If you really want me to, I'll make an attempt. Until then, though, I'll just let your logic speak for itself.<br /><br />"<i>Evolutionists claim that creation is false and that their theory is a fact as much as gravity is a fact, and then they blame the critics when we analyze *their* claim. They want to have it both ways. Over and over they make this claim in the literature, and then when a critic shows up they backtrack, and blame the critic for overstating the claim. But we're using the exact idea and wording they use. Unbelievable.</i>"<br /><br />*sigh...*<br /><br /><i><b>"when evolutionists speak of creation as "must be wrong", they do so in the light of the actual evidence."</b><br /><br />"No, that is not what evolutionists do. They make religious claims and then turn around and say they did no such thing. That's what evolutionists constantly do. Jerry Coyne provides a good recent example.</i>"<br /><br />No, <i>you</i> merely <i>claim</i> that they're making "religious" claims. Understanding that you are a Christian (a "neutral" Christian, HA!) I could easily make the argument that you are, literally, making religious claims when you argue for a model based almost solely on the holy text in which you place your faith. That would at least make a modicum of sense.<br /><br />"<i>The creationist label, the psycho babble, the contriving of motivations, are all common.</i>"<br /><br />The <i>atheist</i> label, the psycho babble, the contriving of motivations, are all common.<br /><br />Evolution has nothing to do with atheism, just as atheism has nothing to do with evolution. On top of that, neither has anything to do with religion. It is <i>you</i> who make claims as to "our" motivations, our atheist psychology and label everything in a way to make it seem less authoritative than the Holy Men of God.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, you were the first of the two of us to include creationism in this debate, whereas I went into it assuming we were only talking about Intelligent Design (they <i>are</i> different, aren't they? Or is it more convenient for you to argue that they're the same?)Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15049148290212621493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-54926096812090586312009-09-15T02:03:39.030-07:002009-09-15T02:03:39.030-07:00This is why I hate debating on blogs... This is 20...This is why I hate debating on blogs... This is 2009, damnit, computers can handle more than 4096 characters!<br /><br />[<b>Part One</b>]<br /><br />Folks:<br /><br />This is an unfortunate example of what it is like to discuss evolution with a creationist. It is uncanny how repeatable the patterns are. They put words in your mouth and they also misrepresent evolution.<br /><br />"<i>Huh? Not ever feeling the need to substantiate? The blog is full of examples, and there is a lengthy web page resource that is fully referenced.</i>"<br /><br />I'm sorry, but I completely fail to see your repeated accusations of "religion" in evolution as anything but your own, personal opinion. Your "references" in this case all seem to be to quotes that <i>you</i> think prove religious thought, but which all normal people see as anything but.<br /><br /><i><b>"Evolution doesn't proclaim itself as "true", [...]"</b><br /><br />"This is false and a remarkable admissioni of either ignorance or denialism.</i>"<br /><br />How convenient that, in making this comment, you completely ignored my explanation which immediately followed that particular part of my statement.<br /><br /><i><b>"If you want to falsify evolution ..."</b><br /><br />"Of course I never attempted that. Evolutionists typically overstate your position. Great way to win a debate.</i>"<br /><br />May I remind you that this very article is partly titled "No Precambrian Rabbits", clearly referring to the popular example of falsification of the theory of evolution. Whether you're personally attempting to falsify the entire theory or not, mentioning falsification is entirely relevant.<br /><br /><i><b>"you have simply decided to be the victim."</b><br /><br />"Yeah, thanks for straitening me out on that. Guess the game is up huh? Amazing how quickly evolutionists can pinpoint our inner hangups.</i>"<br /><br />Not as quickly as you call me, and everyone else convinced by the theory of evolution, "religious". I guess it's OK when you do it, but not when I do it, huh?Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15049148290212621493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-59254258876942424062009-09-15T01:06:00.249-07:002009-09-15T01:06:00.249-07:00Folks:
This is an unfortunate example of what it ...Folks:<br /><br />This is an unfortunate example of what it is like to discuss evolution with an evolutionist. It is uncanny how repeatable the patterns are. They put words in your mouth and they also misrepresent evolution. Then there are the character attacks. <br /><br />Here are some examples:<br /><br />"I find your ways of repeatedly accuse science of something without ever feeling the need to substantiate those accusations quite cowardly and pathetic."<br /><br />Huh? Not ever feeling the need to substantiate? The blog is full of examples, and there is a lengthy web page resource that is fully referenced.<br /><br /><br />"Evolution doesn't proclaim itself as "true", "<br /><br />This is false and a remarkable admissioni of either ignorance or denialism.<br /><br /><br />"If you want to falsify evolution ..."<br /><br />Of course I never attempted that. Evolutionists typically overstate your position. Great way to win a debate.<br /><br /><br /><br />"There are plenty of living scientists who have made predictions that you can attack."<br /><br />But I did do that. The evolutionist would know that if he genuinely wanted to understand the criticism.<br /><br /><br /><br />"you have simply decided to be the victim."<br /><br />Yeah, thanks for straitening me out on that. Guess the game is up huh? Amazing how quickly evolutionists can pinpoint our inner hangups.<br /><br /><br /><br />"No one has said that "ID/creationism must be false"<br /><br />Evolutionists are constantly saying this, and they then turn around and deny every saying any such thing. Unbelievable.<br /><br /><br /><br />"Unlike you, I'm not religious ... and I don't believe in any gods to begin with, so I don't have a natural bias towards design-oriented theories. ... This is what it is like to discuss evolution with a creationist."<br /><br />This is classic. The atheist, who needs evolution, thinks he is neutral and he calls me, a Christian who can go either way with evolution, a creationist. <br /><br /><br /><br />"I like how it always falls back on semantics with creationists. It always ends with you having to explain what "theory" means, that to "know" something doesn't necessarily mean absolute, 100%, completely flawless truth "<br /><br />This is a bait and switch that happens over and over. Evolutionists claim that creation is false and that their theory is a fact as much as gravity is a fact, and then they blame the critics when we analyze *their* claim. They want to have it both ways. Over and over they make this claim in the literature, and then when a critic shows up they backtrack, and blame the critic for overstating the claim. But we're using the exact idea and wording they use. Unbelievable.<br /><br /><br /><br />"when evolutionists speak of creation as "must be wrong", they do so in the light of the actual evidence."<br /><br />No, that is not what evolutionists do. They make religious claims and then turn around and say they did no such thing. That's what evolutionists constantly do. Jerry Coyne provides a good recent example.<br /><br /><br /><br />"What Cornelius, and all creationists love to do, is imply that this means these people have made up their minds. ... The problem is that creationists are impatient, because they know that they're right in that other, absolute sense, and they therefore don't care about the amount or strength of evidence in favor. They want the scientific community to just decide that creation is right, for no other reason than that they themselves think it is."<br /><br />Except that this is a fabrication. The creationist label, the psycho babble, the contriving of motivations, are all common.<br /><br /><br /><br />"This highlights the problem that people are unaware when they're arguing solely out of faith, instead of actual fact."<br /><br />They make religious claims, you bring the facts, and then they switch positions. <br /><br />Folks, these are the best arguments evolutionists can come up with. When you question their theory, this is what you get. They don't want to talk about the scientific problems, for obvious reasons. So it is always about your character, about religion, ... anything but the science.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-50251050109443771222009-09-14T22:27:31.223-07:002009-09-14T22:27:31.223-07:00Folks:
This is what it is like to discuss evoluti...Folks:<br /><br />This is what it is like to discuss evolution with a creationist. In the face of an abundance of evidence, they reply by avoiding the subject and referring you somewhere else that also doesn't actually answer any questions. You can show hundreds of years of consistent science--it doesn't matter.<br /><br />"<i>No one has said that ID/creationism must be false--except Leibniz, Kant, etc., and Darwin, and the later evolutionists. But other than that, no one would be such a "complete fool."</i>"<br /><br />I like how it always falls back on semantics with creationists. It always ends with you having to explain what "theory" means, that to "know" something doesn't necessarily mean <i>absolute, 100%, completely flawless truth</i> and that, as in this case, when evolutionists speak of creation as "must be wrong", they do so in the light of the actual evidence. Creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive, they can't both be true. So, if the facts and evidence have convinced you that evolution is right, then logically and reasonably, creation "must" be false.<br /><br />What Cornelius, and all creationists love to do, is imply that this means these people have made up their minds. They want to imply that those who accept evolution as the theory which best and most completely explains our origins are so dead sure that they won't even allow the possibility of another theory replacing theirs.<br /><br />This is false. Any theory which has <i>more</i> and/or <i>stronger</i> evidence than that which exist for the theory of evolution, <b>will</b> replace evolution within a probably quite short time span. The problem is that creationists are impatient, because <i>they</i> know that they're right in that other, absolute sense, and they therefor don't care about the amount or strength of evidence in favor. They want the scientific community to just <i>decide</i> that creation is right, for no other reason than that they themselves think it is.<br /><br />The scientific community will gladly accept, examine and verify any and all evidence in favor of creationism or Intelligent Design. You cannot blame it on science that <i>you</i> fail to produce this evidence. The only one who can be faulted with not bringing evidence that is convincing enough is you.<br /><br /><i>This</i> highlights the problem that people are unaware when they're arguing solely out of faith, instead of <i>actual</i> fact.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15049148290212621493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-1016744406808096632009-09-14T18:37:24.353-07:002009-09-14T18:37:24.353-07:00Folks:
This is what it is like to discuss evoluti...Folks:<br /><br />This is what it is like to discuss evolution with an evolutionist. In the face of an abundance of evidence, they reply with ad hominems and baseless assertions. You can write books and websites--it doesn't matter.<br /><br />====<br />"you have simply decided to be the victim."<br /><br />"No one has said that "ID/creationism must be false", and no one short of a complete fool would ever claim that. "<br /><br />"Stop your sulking, your whining and your misrepresentation of evolution and science in general. Be a man, collect your evidence, present it and be prepared to receive criticism.<br /><br />Seriously. You sound like a petulant little child who's not allowed to play in the bigger sandbox with the other children."<br />=====<br /><br />No one has said that ID/creationism must be false--except Leibniz, Kant, etc., and Darwin, and the later evolutionists. But other than that, no one would be such a "complete fool."<br /><br />This highlights the problem that people are unaware of the facts.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-36592434933026925712009-09-14T08:46:31.382-07:002009-09-14T08:46:31.382-07:00"Of course it does. Its truth is fundamental ..."<i>Of course it does. Its truth is fundamental to evolutionary thought. It has to be true, because design / creation must be false.</i>"<br /><br />I guess this is your problem, right here. You don't even care about which one is true, you have simply decided to be the victim.<br /><br />No one has said that "ID/creationism must be false", and no one short of a complete fool would ever claim that. I am personally perfectly capable of entertaining the notion that ID is true, but as long as you consistently fail to show that it is, I won't assume that it is either. Unlike you, I'm not religious (in the <i>actual</i> sense of the word, not the straw man "science is religion" sense) and I don't believe in any gods to begin with, so I don't have a natural bias towards design-oriented theories. I believe the theory best supported by the evidence, and if you can't deal with the fact that that is evolution, then tough luck.<br /><br />On top of all that, it is quite dishonest for you to argue the way you do. You are not a victim of anything but your own choice to be one. The scientific community would welcome your ideas if only there was substance to them.<br /><br />Stop your sulking, your whining and your misrepresentation of evolution and science in general. Be a man, collect your evidence, present it and be prepared to receive criticism.<br /><br />Seriously. You sound like a petulant little child who's not allowed to play in the bigger sandbox with the other children.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15049148290212621493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-33407437271872470722009-09-14T08:37:56.996-07:002009-09-14T08:37:56.996-07:00"Evolution doesn't proclaim itself as tru..."Evolution doesn't proclaim itself as true"<br /><br />Of course it does. Its truth is fundamental to evolutionary thought. It has to be true, because design / creation must be false.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-43054895190901699612009-09-14T01:45:51.825-07:002009-09-14T01:45:51.825-07:00"Do you really expect me to repeat a book'..."<i>Do you really expect me to repeat a book's worth of information in every blog post?</i>"<br /><br />Of course not, but you could at least hint at the source behind your claims? You could also try to answer my other points, most of which require no one to read any entire book to find the answer. At some points I even specifically asked for the <i>source</i> for your claims, not the entire explanation itself, and you ignored that in favor of whining about how I didn't read your books.<br /><br />"<i>If you are genuinely interested I have a web page (DarwinsPredictions.com) to get you started.</i>"<br /><br />Right. I clicked one chapter at random and found "3.1 Evolution has hundreds of millions of years available", in which it is apparently scientifically unlawful to ever change one's theories to fit the actual data and facts at hand. Darwin's theory has been changed and refined many times since he wrote it, and we also have much more data than he ever had. Does modern cosmology also prove itself false because the earlier predictions don't still hold true? What is this obsession with Darwin from the ID camp? Why must he be either 100% right, or completely and utterly wrong?<br /><br />Evolution doesn't proclaim itself as "true", it's simply the best explanation we have for the evidence at this time. Intelligent Design could take its place, if it actually explained anything properly and if it were actually useful in any way. Since it's not, evolution is still our best theory.<br /><br />If you want to falsify evolution, falsify the actual, <i>current</i> theory, and not only the initial predictions of Darwin himself. Or, to put it in other terms, pick on someone who'll fight back, and leave the dead in the ground where they belong. There are plenty of living scientists who have made predictions that you can attack.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15049148290212621493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-48900899942619607882009-09-14T00:52:42.345-07:002009-09-14T00:52:42.345-07:00Nathaniel:
====
But it doesn't, and so evolut...Nathaniel:<br /><br />====<br />But it doesn't, and so evolution isn't religion. Again, you can't just invoke your own, biased authority as some sort of "proof" that evolution is nothing but ideological dogma. I can call you a donkey all night long, but until I actually prove that you are one, my words mean absolutely nothing. ...<br /><br />I find your ways of repeatedly accuse science of something without ever feeling the need to substantiate those accusations quite cowardly and pathetic.<br />====<br /><br />Do you really expect me to repeat a book's worth of information in every blog post? If you are genuinely interested I have a web page (DarwinsPredictions.com) to get you started. See the Links at the top right.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-91738802397824526072009-09-14T00:21:16.858-07:002009-09-14T00:21:16.858-07:00"Evolutionists in the know are abandoning the..."<i>Evolutionists in the know are abandoning the venerable evolutionary tree, but don't tell the people.</i>"<br /><br />I've heard that they're refining the classic tree model, but no one has ever claimed that they're abandoning it completely. Abandoning it for what? If you know, please do tell :)<br /><br />"<i>It is a glaring example of selecting the evidences that fit the theory, and ignoring the plethora of contradictions.</i>"<br /><br />Contradictions such as what? Could it be that scientists don't see them as contradictions, that you're the only one that does? Surely you wouldn't want to <i>religiously</i> rule out the possibility that you've missed something?<br /><br />"<i>As always, the real proof is the religious evidence.</i>"<br /><br />Perhaps, but until you show <i>how</i> those random quotes are supposed to show signs of "religious" beliefs, they don't prove anything. All we have is your argument from <i>your own</i> authority that you're right, and they're wrong.<br /><br />"<i>It is fine for evolutionists to proclaim their silly idea a fact--it must be for anyone holding their religious dogma.</i>"<br /><br />And if we tossed evolution to the side, and Intelligent Design became fact, what then? Wouldn't it too, by your own definition, be "religious dogma" and <i>not</i> science? Or is it only evolution that is "religious" in nature, but absolutely not your own theories?<br /><br />"<i>The science consistently goes against evolution, but it doesn't matter.</i>"<br /><br />But it doesn't, and so evolution isn't religion. Again, you can't just invoke your own, biased authority as some sort of "proof" that evolution is nothing but ideological dogma. I can call you a donkey all night long, but until I actually prove that you are one, my words mean absolutely nothing.<br /><br />How, exactly, does science "consistently" go "against evolution"? And if it does, can you explain why <i>only</i> those scientists involved with the theory of evolution are so utterly blind to this fact, or why they're part of such a vast, overwhelming conspiracy on a global level? Are you actually <i>aware</i> of the meaning of your own implications?<br /><br />"<i>Evolution must be true.</i>"<br /><br />Only as long as the evidence shows it to be true. If they don't, you're more than welcome to recognize that, and show everyone else.<br /><br />"<i>The point, rather, is that evolution is driven by such arcane religious beliefs that cannot adjust to modern science.</i>"<br /><br />Unlike, of course, the explicitly religiously motivated, financed and supported "theory" of Intelligent Design.<br /><br />I find your ways of repeatedly accuse science of something without ever feeling the need to substantiate those accusations quite cowardly and pathetic. You're not convincing anyone at all. It doesn't matter if we're all under some magic spell of evolution, even if we weren't your arguments are completely void of any substance. They're nothing but one, long argument from authority, and what's even worse is that you're not even invoking any authority other than your own, which is, to say the least, questionable.<br /><br />Cornelius, as you're probably well aware, when allegedly disproving one scientific theory, your own theory doesn't automatically attain priority. You don't simply win by default. Even if you somehow were able to completely falsify evolution today, we would simply be back to square one. You still have to show at least as strong evidence in favor of design as there ever was in favor of evolution.<br /><br />I don't understand why you reason and argue as if this wasn't the case. It makes you sound as if you don't know what you're talking about. And I'm sure <i>you</i> know that you know absolutely well what you're talking about, don't you? ;)Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15049148290212621493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-19860826596792478672009-09-13T15:17:10.913-07:002009-09-13T15:17:10.913-07:00Incredulous:
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And others have pointed out clai...Incredulous:<br /><br />===<br />And others have pointed out claiming that evolutionists are "religious" is a ludicrous claim<br />===<br /><br />I asked your for details. I wrote: "I didn't know that. Who would that be?" but you didn't answer. Instead, you claimed that I did not answer you (about ID, ISCID, Biologic Institute, etc). But there was no question.<br /><br />You made assertions about lack of progress. OK, fair enough. Not being an ISCID or Biologic person, or in the thick of ID, I had nothing to add. But then you say this:<br /><br />====<br />Why do you simply avoid answering questions? The point was made about ID not having substance and once again you just resort to avoiding the question.<br />====<br /><br />Sorry, I didn't see a question. What I do see is you not answering a clear and simple question. I'm not surprised because, frankly, you are simply making baseless assertions.<br /><br />===<br />Where are the working documents? Why has ISCID not published anything; why is the biologic institute not doing relevant research?<br />===<br /><br />Again, I'm not the person to ask.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-83583747630337392232009-09-13T14:36:14.503-07:002009-09-13T14:36:14.503-07:00Cornelius: "No substance? So evolutionists cl...Cornelius: "No substance? So evolutionists claim their theory if true, use metaphysical premises to prove the point, and yet there is no substance. This sort of anti intellectualism is, unfortunately, not limited to Internet chats. This is typical."<br /><br />Why do you simply avoid answering questions? The point was made about ID not having substance and once again you just resort to avoiding the question. The point was - where is the substance for ID? Where are the practical workings of applying CSI, design filters etc? Seems to me when it comes down to it ID proponents just throw all of that grand theory out the work and make grand declarations that something is "designed". Where are the working documents? Why has ISCID not published anything; why is the biologic institute not doing relevant research? Do you actually ever answer a question?<br /><br />I guess at least we have you saying "metaphysical" now instead of religious, so I suppose that is progress of a fashion...Incredulousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-21430468442358024812009-09-13T14:25:55.313-07:002009-09-13T14:25:55.313-07:00Incredulous:
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And others have pointed out clai...Incredulous:<br /><br />===<br />And others have pointed out claiming that evolutionists are "religious" is a ludicrous claim<br />===<br /><br />I didn't know that. Who would that be? This should be interesting--how does one sanitize centuries of religious claims?<br /><br />====<br />but to seriously claim that evolution is some kind of "religion" makes you sound as credible as a conspirator theorist. To be blunt, it's a stupid argument that has no substance to it.<br />====<br /><br />No substance? So evolutionists claim their theory if true, use metaphysical premises to prove the point, and yet there is no substance. This sort of anti intellectualism is, unfortunately, not limited to Internet chats. This is typical.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-24200349898858723022009-09-13T10:26:07.727-07:002009-09-13T10:26:07.727-07:00Dr. Hunter: "I know. You have no choice. As ...Dr. Hunter: "I know. You have no choice. As a Christian I can accept or reject evolution. I can follow the evidence. Atheism doesn't allow that choice. Your options are evolution or evolution."<br /><br />Not true. There are in fact some atheists who do ascribe to ID. Of course doing so raises all sorts of interesting and philosophical questions. I personally think ID could be a viable option too and is one of the reasons I read blogs like this. For now though, ID remains an interesting undeveloped idea, and one that has barely made it to the hypothesis stage. One sign of this is that most of the writings here and on uncommondescent are nearly always preoccupied with criticizing evolution rather than offering any positive evidence for ID. Yes, we hear about people making "design inferences" although when you poke on this this turns out to be little more than "we don't understand how evolution did it and it looks really complex and must be designed". I've yet to see anybody systematically show how Dembski's ideas around and the explanatory filter are practically applied. <br /><br />Right now ID is an interesting concept, but lacks any real positive evidence. For example, ID can say nothing about the scope of design, the methods the designer used, when said design may have occurred, any reuse involved, the characteristics of the designer. And if you go to biologic.org which is supposed to be one of the leading "research" arms of ID, it is woefully lacking in any proper research that might attempt to answer those questions. And we won't even mention the ISCID journal, which has now not published anything in nearly 4 years. If there is any real pragmatic ID research going on it's hard to see it.Timcolnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-53702701967111576712009-09-13T10:16:42.142-07:002009-09-13T10:16:42.142-07:00Cornelius: "Sooo, evolution's absurdities...Cornelius: "Sooo, evolution's absurdities and religious mandates are OK because, after all, those skeptics must be religiously driven as well.<br /><br />Unbelievable! Evolution's hypocrisy is at a fever pitch. They make religious pronouncements, claim their asanine theory must be true, and if you point this out they blame *you* for bringing religion into the debate."<br /><br />The point I was making is that the criticism you level at evolutionists for being religiously driven can also be equally leveled at you - in fact much more so, given the rather dubious history of ID and it's roots in creationism. This is a point you fail to acknowledge.<br /><br />And others have pointed out claiming that evolutionists are "religious" is a ludicrous claim and one that you cannot really substantiate. I can see that, yes, evolutionists may hold certain presuppositions, or that confirmation bias is at work (and ultimately where is that not true) - but to seriously claim that evolution is some kind of "religion" makes you sound as credible as a conspirator theorist. To be blunt, it's a stupid argument that has no substance to it.Incredulousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-68539544346920370112009-09-13T08:40:41.302-07:002009-09-13T08:40:41.302-07:00No, I'm not the one confusing the criticism. T...<i>No, I'm not the one confusing the criticism. This is a classic evolutionary cunard. The evolutionist gives his religious pronouncements and then is shocked when it is pointed out. What me?</i><br /><br />Mr. Hunter- your reply is a complete non-sequiter. Criticizing claims of ID is not the same as presenting evidence for evolution. That is simply a fact. Your handwaving about "religious pronouncements" does not alter this fact. No one is "shocked" that anti-ID arguments are religious in nature, because ID itself is really religious in nature. That does not change the fact that these "religious pronouncements" are not the same as evidence for evolution and are not regarded by the scientific community as being such.<br /><br /><i>If you think the religion is contrived by pop media such as the Economist, then you are not familiar with evolution.</i><br /><br />Why not quote from an actual "evolutionist" then?Boonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-85529337468102475432009-09-12T23:51:38.841-07:002009-09-12T23:51:38.841-07:00Incredulous:
"But then we are supposed to bu...Incredulous:<br /><br />"But then we are supposed to buy the fact that the science Cornelius practices is not influenced by religion (unlike evolution). ... Perhaps Cornelius likes to think that there is no confirmation bias here, but given the way religion takes a control of a person's mind, I must admit I'm quite incredulous."<br /><br />Sooo, evolution's absurdities and religious mandates are OK because, after all, those skeptics must be religiously driven as well.<br /><br />Unbelievable! Evolution's hypocrisy is at a fever pitch. They make religious pronouncements, claim their asanine theory must be true, and if you point this out they blame *you* for bringing religion into the debate.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-1130267666575302042009-09-12T23:42:42.226-07:002009-09-12T23:42:42.226-07:00Lurker:
"Sorry, but this really makes no sen...Lurker:<br /><br />"Sorry, but this really makes no sense."<br /><br />I know. You have no choice. As a Christian I can accept or reject evolution. I can follow the evidence. Atheism doesn't allow that choice. Your options are evolution or evolution.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-57569357269685020152009-09-12T20:12:08.354-07:002009-09-12T20:12:08.354-07:00Cornelius: "But that doesn't get me very...Cornelius: "But that doesn't get me very far when it comes to detailed metaphysical questions, such as your about the origin of evil. The Bible does not supply such answers to this and many such questions."<br /><br />I think this a little odd; on the one hand Cornelius disparages evolutionists who, according to him at least, are influenced more by religious beliefs than science. On the surface one would think religion is a bad thing. But no, Cornelius is himself a believer, so obviously religion plays a large part in his life (by the sound of it and because he teaches at Biola I'd assume he is an evangelical Christian). <br /><br />But then we are supposed to buy the fact that the science Cornelius practices is not influenced by religion (unlike evolution). Having known a large number of Christians (and as a former fundamentalist Christian myself), that's just a little hard to swallow. Especially when you consider that many have traced the origin of ID directly to creationist/religious roots (can you say cdesign proponentists?). Perhaps Cornelius likes to think that there is no confirmation bias here, but given the way religion takes a control of a person's mind, I must admit I'm quite incredulous. <br /><br />Furthermore I think this whole argument of "evolution = religion" is just a dead end. Ultimately if ID is to succeed it needs strong positive evidence, not just the endless evolution-bashing espoused by the likes of Cornelius. So far that evidence seems short in supplyIncredulousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-1241208214156102922009-09-12T17:54:41.615-07:002009-09-12T17:54:41.615-07:00Cornelius: "I guess scientific absurdity does...Cornelius: "I guess scientific absurdity doesn't matter."<br /><br />Sorry, but this really makes no sense. I have no idea of what you are trying to say. If there is absurdity, it is believing that ancient myth used by ancient people to explain a world they could make little sense of it. You want to promote science - why not take a scientific approach to the origins of the OT and NT. After doing so you may realize that it is not quite the divinely inspired book you think it is, let alone the handbook of salvation.Lurkernoreply@blogger.com