tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post5318022374689565255..comments2024-01-23T02:32:28.567-08:00Comments on Darwin's God: Evolution Professor Continues With Historical RevisionismUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-39217873866195474952012-12-24T09:12:51.563-08:002012-12-24T09:12:51.563-08:00Rjop,
. Vel...Mankind actually attempts to curtail...Rjop,<br /><b>. Vel...Mankind actually attempts to curtail free will when it conflicts with other interests thru laws or actions</b><br /><br /><b>Rjop.....So why do we whine when God has done this in isolated OT narratives?</b><br /><br />God is omnipotent by definition,capable of anything logically possible. Curtailing human free will,obviously is possible. God is obviously able to curtail human free will and has by flooding the entire world prejudging all of humanity except a few. Man could be God's puppet. <br />However if God desires man to freely choose between good and evil, free will is required. The children did not have that choice, they received the same treatment as their sinful fathers. Their life was taken away for the potential of evil. Every man has that potential,why single out punishment for some but not others? This seems unjust, God is supposed to be just by His very nature. <br /><br /><b>Vel....God did not limit OBL's free will to kill innocent people, a Navy Seal did,too painlessly IMO </b><br /><br /><b>Why did the navy seal do this?</b><br /> He took an oath, he choose a ethic which required honoring his oath<br /><b>Why does this desire of not letting evil completely take over exist? Why would it even matter?</b><br />Because we don't want to be killed by a terrorist, we feel pain at others sorrow, it is wasteful, it is an attack on a concept,freedom, which we choose to value, or any other reason. <br /><br /><b> After all, in the animal kingdom (where we supposedly evolved from) animals kill all the time with no true self awareness or consciousness.</b><br /><br />True, animals kill each other all the time. But they have developed strategies to survive, humans do the same. One way is for each member of society agree to certain rules ,how those rules are enforced is up to the group. <br /><br />My question is if God truly caused the children to be killed for evil that they neither understood or committed and this is just,why does he allow Stalin to commit atrocities and die in his sleep. Why punish children in this world and let evil flourish waiting for the afterlife to punish? velikovskyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10957523527184649923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-63290938320575996102012-12-24T02:21:19.110-08:002012-12-24T02:21:19.110-08:00Cont;
It seems they merely consist of the myths ...Cont; <br /><br /><b>It seems they merely consist of the myths and legends of the cultures of the people writing them.</b><br /><br />Of course it does, because you want it to be a myth and would close your ears and find a reason to not accept anything that demonstrates otherwise. <br /><br />@ Vel<br /><br /><b>Mankind actually attempts to curtail free will when it conflicts with other interests thru laws or actions</b><br /><br />So why do we whine when God has done this in isolated OT narratives?<br /><br /><b>God did not limit OBL's free will to kill innocent people, a Navy Seal did,too painlessly IMO.</b><br /><br />Why did the navy seal do this? Why does this desire of not letting evil completely take over exist? Why would it even matter? After all, in the animal kingdom (where we supposedly evolved from) animals kill all the time with no true self awareness or consciousness. rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-53339554247499680332012-12-24T01:23:15.555-08:002012-12-24T01:23:15.555-08:00And he failed to fulfil the Jewish prophecies.
No...<b>And he failed to fulfil the Jewish prophecies.</b><br /><br />No he did not, he fulfilled hundreds. Again, the remaining will be fulfilled upon his second coming. Can you read? or perhaps your are willfully closing your ears. <br /><br /><b>but when he does apparently bad things then we suddenly have no right to judge him?</b><br /><br />If we do not have all relevant facts nor complete knowledge of what was taking place, our judgment may be in error, therefore Judgment may be suspended on something difficult to comprehend. <br /><br /><b>To back up your position and make your argument seem logical and well-reasoned. It generally helps.</b><br /><br />No argument would be reasonable to you, as you have already made up your mind. <br /><br /><b>It is apparent to you because you are assuming it</b><br /><br />BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<b>!!!!</b> It is apparent, because again it is obvious. <br /><br /><br />rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-60607163116616850862012-12-23T10:44:37.355-08:002012-12-23T10:44:37.355-08:00HE said he was Catholic in speeches he gave early ...HE said he was Catholic in speeches he gave early on. He was doing what politicians do best, and lying for votes. <br /><br />""The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development of organic living beings would be unthinkable.""<br /><br />This quote says higher development (evolution) depends on the superior not mating with the inferior. That's evolutionary eugenics.natschusterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13127240463824366637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-91076330230863108592012-12-23T09:36:55.191-08:002012-12-23T09:36:55.191-08:00nat -
Hitler seemed to use the terms "Creat...nat - <br /><br /><b>Hitler seemed to use the terms "Creator" and "Nature" interchangibly. IMHO that means he considered them equivalent. That means he was Pantheist.</b><br /><br />He specifically stated he was a Catholic.<br /><br /><b>And I should have said evolutionary eugenics.</b><br /><br />What is evolutionary eugenics? How does it differ from normal eugenics?Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-43319902523963871382012-12-23T09:34:58.249-08:002012-12-23T09:34:58.249-08:00rjop -
Nope, the Messiah was for the whole world...rjop - <br /><br /><b>Nope, the Messiah was for the whole world not just the Jews.</b><br /><br />But he was the Messiah as predicted in the Jewish faith? And he failed to fulfil the Jewish prophecies.<br /><br /><b>AS I said above, the other prophecies which were not fulfilled then, will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ.</b><br /><br />If he had fulfilled them all the first time, perhaps more people would have recognised him as such. Or did he not WANT to be recognised?<br /><br /><b>You seem hell bent on separating the OT from the NT. Do you believe the OT is true but the NT is a hoax, or do you believe the whole thing is a sham?</b><br /><br />Sham is a harsh word. I don't believe either are accurate, historical records, certainly. It seems they merely consist of the myths and legends of the cultures of the people writing them.<br /><br />But the dramatic and total shift between them casts a great deal of doubt on the claim that the NT is a historical and spiritual extension of the Old. Bigger differences between them on absolutely central issues such as salvation can hardly be imagined. I don't believe either is actuall true, but believing BOTH are true is a logical contradition in itself.<br /><br /><b>The first Christians were Jews </b><br /><br />I know. But that does not mean all - or even the majority - of Jews became Christian, does it? They didn't. Christianity was very much a fringe religion until the 4th century.<br /><br /><b>Stop blaming me your arrogance is obvious..</b><br /><br />It is apparent to you because you are assuming it.<br /><br /><b>"God cannot be BOTH beyond our judgement and NOT beyond our judgement."<br /><br />Yes he can, because again, in some situations which are hard to understand, our knowledge is finite and limited. </b><br /><br />So when God does apparently good things, we can judge him as good, but when he does apparently bad things then we suddenly have no right to judge him?<br /><br />BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!<br /><br />Double standards, much?<br /><br /><b>Why should I exert more effort, when it is obvious you think you have it all figured out. </b><br /><br />To back up your position and make your argument seem logical and well-reasoned. It generally helps.Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-55694713602579027702012-12-22T14:57:00.203-08:002012-12-22T14:57:00.203-08:00Quote Ritchie quoting me:
""""...Quote Ritchie quoting me:<br /><br />"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br />I don't know what Hitler's religious beliefs were. It seems to me, from the evidence that he was a pantheist, a nature worshipper.<br /><br />Really? What evidence indicates that?<br /><br />But his core belief, the one that motivated him to build death camps, was evolution.<br /><br />I think you mean eugenics, no? Try not to get them confused.<br />""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br /><br />Hitler seemed to use the terms "Creator" and "Nature" interchangibly. IMHO that means he considered them equivalent. That means he was Pantheist.<br /><br />And I should have said evolutionary eugenics.natschusterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13127240463824366637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-76160845249120641692012-12-21T11:49:02.120-08:002012-12-21T11:49:02.120-08:00That a just, all good God, who values free will ac...<b>That a just, all good God, who values free will actually commanded it</b><br /><br />So then by this standard, Hitler should have been allowed to exercise his full free will unchecked and possibly would have ruled the world? <br /><br /><b>After all, the criminals who crashed planes in buildings used the same logic, no action is wrong if sanctioned by God</b><br /><br />Yes, this is a good point and I do not have the answers except to say Islam text commands killing to force their religion. The Isrealites were dealing with what appears to be very evil people and were not killing because they wanted to force the God of Israel on them. Just as it was justified for us to take out Bin Laden, or do you believe he should have been allowed to fully exercise his fee will? <br /><br />I understand the killing of children is the sticking point, but again we don't know all of what was taking place and if the Nephilim theory is correct, (which the Jews did believe along with early church fathers) then it would somewhat make more sense, along with destroying animals due to disease from beasteality practices. <br /><br />Also, in many instances where God in the Biblical narrative commanded these, there were centuries before it was carried out with many warnings beforehand. rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-90445639993416984362012-12-21T10:42:02.895-08:002012-12-21T10:42:02.895-08:00Surely the whole point of GIVING prophecies about ...<b>Surely the whole point of GIVING prophecies about the Messiah is so that the Hebrews could recognise him as such?</b><br /><br />Nope, the Messiah was for the whole world not just the Jews. Perhaps the ego's of the ones who did not accept, hindered them, as they were looking for a political messiah, bypassing all the lamb/suffering servant prophecies that were fulfilled right before them. AS I said above, the other prophecies which were not fulfilled then, will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ. He will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem, etc. etc. You seem hell bent on separating the OT from the NT. Do you believe the OT is true but the NT is a hoax, or do you believe the whole thing is a sham? Or you just hate the belief in Jesus Christ.<br /><br /><b>Given that, they could hardly be blamed for failed to acknowledge the Messiah</b><br /><br />The first Christians were Jews > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity<br /><br /><b>Stop trying to make out that I am being arrogant.</b><br /><br />Stop blaming me your arrogance is obvious..<br /><br /><b>You just said God is beyond our judgement</b><br /><br />No, I said the actions of God regarding the deaths of children are beyond our judgment, as we do not have all knowledge of what was occurring. Re-read what I said above.<br /><br /><b>God cannot be BOTH beyond our judgement and NOT beyond our judgement.</b><br /><br />Yes he can, because again, in some situations which are hard to understand, our knowledge is finite and limited. Again, re-read what I said above.<br /><br /><b>I don't recall you doing so, and re-reading our conversation here I cannot see you doing so. Could you give a brief recap please?</b><br /><br />I lightly touched on my thoughts above. Why should I exert more effort, when it is obvious you think you have it all figured out. <br />rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-89860345846163454412012-12-21T09:25:19.399-08:002012-12-21T09:25:19.399-08:00Rjob
Are those the only two choices, none or one w...Rjob<br /><b>Are those the only two choices, none or one who commands His followers to slaughter children for their own good?<br /><br />You could look into reincarnation or Islam. </b><br /><br />Too late,born a Catholic always a Catholic ,at least for me. Perhaps a bad Catholic but one nevertheless <br /><br /><b>As for the slaughter of children, would it make any difference if this was missing from the narrative? I somehow doubt it. </b><br /><br />To the children it may have had some difference.<br /><br /><b>You and I were not there and we do not have full knowledge of what was taking place.</b><br /><br />Excellent point. Does this also include the God's participation? One tribe slaughtering another,killing the children to eliminate future threat, justifying action by shuffling off responsibility to the divine.Totally believable.<br /><br /> That a just, all good God, who values free will actually commanded it, troubling. After all, the criminals who crashed planes in buildings used the same logic, no action is wrong if sanctioned by God<br /><br /> <b>One theory you might research, if your questioning is sincere, is the Nephilim and the possible connection to the tribes that were destroyed.</b><br /><br />I have great respect for Biblical scholars,and love new ideas. If fact that is exactly why we are conversing on my part. <br /><br /><br /><b>Also, I really have no interest in 'defending' my belief, will take the bait to a certain extent, but won't waste much time 'defending' anything.</b><br /><br />Bad choice of word ( defending) on my part, perhaps discussing your ideas would have been more accurate.<br /><br />When things don't make sense to me and someone says it makes sense to them I am curious how, I like to know how things work. velikovskyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10957523527184649923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-80007722082619878912012-12-21T08:30:47.686-08:002012-12-21T08:30:47.686-08:00nat -
I don't know what Hitler's religio...nat - <br /><br /><b>I don't know what Hitler's religious beliefs were. It seems to me, from the evidence that he was a pantheist, a nature worshipper.</b><br /><br />Really? What evidence indicates that?<br /><br /><b>But his core belief, the one that motivated him to build death camps, was evolution.</b><br /><br />I think you mean eugenics, no? Try not to get them confused.<br /><br /><b> Makes sense. He worshipped nature, evolution is a natural law. </b><br /><br />?????Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-60184347372582630672012-12-21T08:27:27.177-08:002012-12-21T08:27:27.177-08:00rjop -
So being infalible means you do it all at...rjop - <br /><br /><b>So being infalible means you do it all at once.. Got it. </b><br /><br />Surely the whole point of GIVING prophecies about the Messiah is so that the Hebrews could recognise him as such?<br /><br />Given that, they could hardly be blamed for failed to acknowledge the Messiah before he had fulfilled them all, could they?<br /><br /><b>Great, I'm sure they will be happy to hear your approval, </b><br /><br />It's got nothing to do with approval. Stop trying to make out that I am being arrogant. I'm just pointing out that anyone who took Jesus for the Jewish Messiah is actually making an irrational leap of faith, even by Christianity's own standards.<br /><br /><b>although again, not all of them rejected him. </b><br /><br />I'm not denying some DID make that leap. That doesn't make it rational.<br /><br /><b>God is loving, good, kind, and just.</b><br /><br />You just said God is beyond our judgement. Those are judgements.<br /><br />You cannot have it both ways. Is he above our judgement or not?<br /><br /><b>Maybe you should stop ordering people around.</b><br /><br />I am not ordering anyone. I am merely stating simple, logical facts. God cannot be BOTH beyond our judgement and NOT beyond our judgement. He is one or the other.<br /><br /><b>I already did... </b><br /><br />I don't recall you doing so, and re-reading our conversation here I cannot see you doing so. Could you give a brief recap please?Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-75300729377922192002012-12-20T19:36:44.684-08:002012-12-20T19:36:44.684-08:00I mention it here because Cornelius seems to take ...<b>I mention it here because Cornelius seems to take it as red that Hitler was outlandish that Hitler believed in ID. But I don't see why.</b> <br /><br />Dear Mr. Torley:<br /><br /> I read with interest your recent blog entry:<br /> http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/noors-non-sequitur-or-did-hitler-believe-in-intelligent-design/<br /><br /> While I may not agree with your overall perspective, in fairness, you make some good points on that particular statement in that particular slide. I am convinced that you are very right that I inappropriately<br /> conflated Intelligent Design with basic creationism (though I disagree with other facets in that I think he was indeed a creationist). You conclude with, “Let us therefore hope that Professor Noor amends his last slide before his next online course starts in January 2013.” Given your points, I am indeed convinced to amend that slide. I plan for my next iteration to delete the specific reference to Intelligent Design in that slide.<br /><br /> Thanks for diplomatically attacking this point with information, rather than taking on a stance of grandstanding.<br /><br /> Sincerely,<br /> Mohamed Noor rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-91602582821258445112012-12-20T16:22:03.374-08:002012-12-20T16:22:03.374-08:00Well we are talking about infalible beings here, s...<b>Well we are talking about infalible beings here, supposedly. If someone makes prophecies about the Messiah, and the Messiah doesn't fullfil them, then yes, something has gone wrong somewhere.</b><br /><br />So being infalible means you do it all at once.. Got it. <br /><br /><b>In the meantime, I see it as perfectly reasonably for the Jews of 30AD to reject a so-called Messiah who doesn't fulfil their prophecies.</b><br /><br />Great, I'm sure they will be happy to hear your approval, although again, not all of them rejected him. <br /><br /><b>Just as long as you never refer to God as being loving, good, kind, just</b><br /><br />God is loving, good, kind, and just. Maybe you should stop ordering people around. <br /><br /><b>I do try to be polite and respectful and give people the benefit of the doubt when appropriate. I am aware I have lost my rag a couple of times - at Cornelius after he wrote that digusting diatribe calling everyone who believes in evolution a murderer, and I can only take so much of Joe G's purile name-calling before responding in kind. What can I say, I'm human. But I rather hope these are the exception and not the rule.</b><br /><br />Uh Huh.. <br /><br /><b>Great. Then perhaps you can plainly answer what you think accounts for the truly phenomenal shift in tone between the OT and NT, and especially of its principle characters (who are supposedly one and the same)?</b><br /><br />I already did... <br /><br /><br /><br />rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-26615718122683334922012-12-20T16:11:08.283-08:002012-12-20T16:11:08.283-08:00IHS:
Since natschuster is so well read in these ...IHS:<br /><br /><br />Since natschuster is so well read in these matters perhaps he could explain the apparent contradiction between Hitler's alleged admiration for Darwinism and the Nazi's purging of books about the subject from German libraries:<br /><br />Guidelines from Die Bücherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279<br /><br />[...]<br /><br />6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Haeckel).<br /><br />The quote is from the Reich Librarian's Association. I don't knoiw if what they said was the official policy of the entire Third Reich. I really don't think so because evolution was taught in Universities under the Nazis. Wasn't Nobel prize winner Lorenz an evolutionist and a Nazi? He was a professor under the Third Reich. Or maybe the Reich Librarians didn't like Darwin's version because it was English and not German. They didn't like Relativity since it was developed by a Jew.<br />natschusterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13127240463824366637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-37343018512735720572012-12-20T16:05:31.706-08:002012-12-20T16:05:31.706-08:00Ritchie:
I don't know what Hitler's relig...Ritchie:<br /><br />I don't know what Hitler's religious beliefs were. It seems to me, from the evidence that he was a pantheist, a nature worshipper. But his core belief, the one that motivated him to build death camps, was evolution. Makes sense. He worshipped nature, evolution is a natural law. <br /><br />natschusterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13127240463824366637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-86241369796261944552012-12-20T15:59:20.450-08:002012-12-20T15:59:20.450-08:00rjop -
So according to your standards, because C...rjop - <br /><br /><b>So according to your standards, because Christ did not fulfill ALL the prophecies the first time around the whole thing is false.</b><br /><br />Well we are talking about infalible beings here, supposedly. If someone makes prophecies about the Messiah, and the Messiah doesn't fulfil them, then yes, something has gone wrong somewhere.<br /><br />In the meantime, I see it as perfectly reasonably for the Jews of 30AD to reject a so-called Messiah who doesn't fulfil their prophecies.<br /><br /><b>And your mistaken about not fulfilling prophecies he did and will, just not on your timescale. </b><br /><br />This is not me being unreasonably demanding. If Jesus had fulfilled his prophecies - all of them - the first time around, maybe the Jews would have recognised him as the Messiah in the first place. Did he not want the Jews to recognise him? Did he come in disguise as a false Messiah?<br /><br /><b>Or we can suspend judgment as we do not have full knowledge of relevant facts. </b><br /><br />Yes, we can. That's absolutely fine. Just as long as you never refer to God as being loving, good, kind, just and such like. If he is beyond our judgement then he is beyond judgement, and you are seemingly worshipping a being without the slightest idea whether he is kind or cruel.<br /><br /><b>Oh, Ok, so your dead then resurrected. Sounds pretty much like life after to death to me. </b><br /><br />You are moving the goalposts. We were talking about the afterlife - Heaven and Hell. Existing in spirit in another realm. Not your Earthly body returning to an Earthly life.<br /><br /><b>And your point is?</b><br /><br />Actually I'm wondering what your point is here. You were the one who introduced the authorship of the NT. And I don't know what point you were trying to make.<br /><br /><b>Really, seen many insulting and berating comments from you all over these boards.</b><br /><br />I do try to be polite and respectful and give people the benefit of the doubt when appropriate. I am aware I have lost my rag a couple of times - at Cornelius after he wrote that digusting diatribe calling everyone who believes in evolution a murderer, and I can only take so much of Joe G's purile name-calling before responding in kind. What can I say, I'm human. But I rather hope these are the exception and not the rule. <br /><br /><b>And claiming more or less it's all a hoax, is no way to have an argument either.</b><br /><br />Why not? It's a valid, rational opinion. I am making sincere points. Or do you find the very suggestion offensive? In which case I fear that may say more about you than it does about me...<br /><br /><b>And nope, not having a difficult time answering,</b><br /><br />Great. Then perhaps you can plainly answer what you think accounts for the truly phenomenal shift in tone between the OT and NT, and especially of its principle characters (who are supposedly one and the same)?Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-52141898367993625252012-12-20T15:12:39.750-08:002012-12-20T15:12:39.750-08:00Second, isn't the fact that he failed to fulfi...<b>Second, isn't the fact that he failed to fulfil the prophesies the first time around</b><br /><br />So according to your standards, because Christ did not fulfill ALL the prophecies the first time around the whole thing is false. Got it. And your mistaken about not fulfilling prophecies he did and will, just not on your timescale. Perhaps you should tell him to hurry up. <br /><br /><b>or we CAN judge God, in which case he has some horrendous deeds to account for.</b><br /><br />Or we can suspend judgment as we do not have full knowledge of relevant facts. What appears to be horrific at face value, could be entirely justified if we knew all of what was taking place in the spiritual as well as earthly realm.<br /><br /><b>That sounds like resurrection, not life beyond death</b><br /><br />Oh, Ok, so your dead then resurrected. Sounds pretty much like life after to death to me. <br /><br /><b>Well, Paul wrote most of the books. The others are largely anonymous - including the gospels - but it is reasonable to take them as Christians.</b><br /><br />And your point is? Some are anonymous, some are not. However there is strong evidence most were written before 70AD as nothing was written about destruction of Jerusalem. Also, 90% of the population was illiterate at this time.<br /><br /><b>Insult is no argument. I sense you are getting defensive because I am asking questions which you are having trouble addressing.</b><br /><br />Really, seen many insulting and berating comments from you all over these boards. And claiming more or less it's all a hoax, is no way to have an argument either. And nope, not having a difficult time answering, you are having a difficult time understanding.rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-89238711268560502252012-12-20T12:47:49.935-08:002012-12-20T12:47:49.935-08:00rjop -
As I said above, we do not have all the r...rjop - <br /><br /><b>As I said above, we do not have all the relevant facts of what was taking place, I nor you were there.</b><br /><br />Fair enough. It is perfectly reasonable to say that God is beyond our judgement. He does apparently exceed our understanding allegedly. But notice this undermines our ability to call him good.<br /><br />Either we CANNOT judge God, in which case we simply cannot say that he is good or bad, or we CAN judge God, in which case he has some horrendous deeds to account for.<br /><br /><b>To address your rant above to Neal, Christs return will fulfill all the remaining prophecies.</b><br /><br />Massively insufficient on many levels. Firstly, why would Christ be so very different the second time around? Second, isn't the fact that he failed to fulfil the prophesies the first time around good grounds for the Hebrew not to accept him as the Messiah? Why should they listen to someone who claims to be the Messiah, but who doesn't fulfil the Messianic prophecies?<br /><br /><b>Psalm 49:15</b><br /><br />That sounds like resurrection, not life beyond death.<br /><br /><b>2 Kings 2:10,11</b><br /><br />Yes, there is that word, Heaven. But the passage is talking about literal transportation in a literal chariot of fire. Heaven here is a literal place where God dwells. It is not necessarily a place we may go to the other side of death.<br /><br />(Also, notice this flatly contradicts <br />John 3:13, which says "No man hath ascended up to heaven,".)<br /><br /><b>Who wrote the NT again? Oh yeah, Jews.</b><br /><br />Well, Paul wrote most of the books. The others are largely anonymous - including the gospels - but it is reasonable to take them as Christians.<br /><br /><b>And another most parsimonious explanation is you are making hasty conclusions out of ignorance and possibly an over inflated ego. </b><br /><br />Insult is no argument. I sense you are getting defensive because I am asking questions which you are having trouble addressing. Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-58391205019528886412012-12-20T11:33:11.915-08:002012-12-20T11:33:11.915-08:00Richie,
To address your rant above to Neal, Chris...Richie,<br /><br />To address your rant above to Neal, Christs return will fulfill all the remaining prophecies. When Christ came as the suffering servant, the Jewish leaders were looking for the reigning king, missing or possibly ignoring the suffering servant prophecies. The restoration of Israel is setting the stage for remaining prophecies to be fulfilled. This might help understanding, though I highly doubt you have a sincere desire to do so> http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=15&contentID=3138&commInfo=9&topic=The%20Search%20for%20the%20Messiah<br /><br /><b>The OT *never* says anything about an afterlife.</b> <br /><br />Couple of examples among many;<br /><br />But God will ransom my soul from the power of death, for He will receive me. Selah (Psalm 49:15) <br /><br />He responded, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it will be granted you; if not, it will not." As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a whirlwind into heaven (2 Kings 2:10,11) <br /><br /><b>No wonder the Jews didn't recognise Jesus as the Messiah</b><br /><br />Who wrote the NT again? Oh yeah, Jews. <br /><br /><b>And the most parsimonious explanation is that the NT was written by new people with new ideas about what their religion should be like - and who were not guided by a constant deity who had inspired the OT too</b><br /><br />And another most parsimonious explanation is you are making hasty conclusions out of ignorance and possibly an over inflated ego. <br /><br />rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-37893862212570719552012-12-20T10:28:49.234-08:002012-12-20T10:28:49.234-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-61702039718814151952012-12-20T08:25:12.480-08:002012-12-20T08:25:12.480-08:00Is there ANYTHING God could possible do which woul...<b>Is there ANYTHING God could possible do which would cause you to question whether he was good and just?</b><br /><br />As I said above, we do not have all the relevant facts of what was taking place, I nor you were there. This also is a common tactic of the new Atheist, bring up difficult Biblical narratives to inflame. Your not God so stop acting like you are passing judgment on something you do not have full knowledge of. rjophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067510053393810705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-54256069370330121222012-12-20T07:59:02.445-08:002012-12-20T07:59:02.445-08:00Michele -
My dear friend, my answer about Hitler...Michele - <br /><br /><b>My dear friend, my answer about Hitler's crypto-judaism was clearly ironic: the man could do lip service to whatever religion he found convenient at the moment ... but this didn't make a Christian of him!</b><br /><br />Quite true. But he did repeatedly and publically state his Christian faith and decry atheist. What reason do we have to suppose he was lying?<br /><br /><b>why did you refuse to face the question of nazi "euthanasia" killings,</b><br /><br />I don't always reply to every point - otherwise posts quickly get rather unwieldy.<br /><br /><b>Maybe because the former demonstrates beyond the shadow of a doubt that Hitler wasn't, after all, a real Christian?</b><br /><br />I really don't see how. How are you arriving at this conclusion? Is it impossible for Christians to commit genocide - even though God specifically commands genocide in the Bible? Again, I'm not sure I follow your logic, but I am detecting a whiff of the No True Scotsman fallacy...<br /><br /><b> Believe me, it could appear to be an insolvable problem, but only at its face value: both protestant and catholic theology has found a way to deal fine with it</b><br /><br />Is there a particular form of theodicy you favour? Because they all seem rather flawed to me.<br /><br /><b>Then, if you build your reasoning about God's omniscience and omnipotence on the denial of free will... well, we better stop here our debate!</b><br /><br />I do not deny free will. But I do have problems with the Free Will Defence. It seems to assert that suffering is an inseparable consequence of having free will. But if so, what is the state of being in Heaven? Is there suffering in Heaven? Or is there no free will in Heaven? Or, if there is somehow free will but no suffering, then you have disproved the very premise of the argument - suffering is NOT an inevitable consequence of free will.<br /><br /><b>Accept my best wishes for a very Merry Christmas!</b><br /><br />And the same to you and yours. All the best.Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-55348119455472654792012-12-20T07:45:57.848-08:002012-12-20T07:45:57.848-08:00rjop -
Not at all. They certainly can. But it is...rjop - <br /><br />Not at all. They certainly can. But it is a very common Christian canard that Hitler is an example of what happens when atheists get in power, or some such. And I am showing that this is wrong.<br /><br />I mention it here because Cornelius seems to take it as red that Hitler was outlandish that Hitler believed in ID. But I don't see why.Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-2800263089328896562012-12-20T05:55:42.102-08:002012-12-20T05:55:42.102-08:00rjop -
I would suspect since the Bible proclaims...rjop - <br /><br /><b>I would suspect since the Bible proclaims children are a Gift from God, he can take back this gift and save them from having to endure their parents spiritual fate, if they would have continued to live as their parents did.</b><br /><br />A truly chilling attitude. You have no problem with child murder?<br /><br />Is there ANYTHING God could possible do which would cause you to question whether he was good and just? If so, what, because for most people, child murder is right up there with the worst of them. If not, then you lose all basis for declaring that God is 'good'. If He is good no matter what he does - including killing babies - then the term is utterly meaningless.Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03494987782757049380noreply@blogger.com