tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post245383987303426371..comments2024-01-23T02:32:28.567-08:00Comments on Darwin's God: Top Chemist: “They Just Stare at Me”Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger113125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-52160498049954378342014-12-15T19:41:45.095-08:002014-12-15T19:41:45.095-08:00"I don't know"
"You have it t..."I don't know"<br /><br /><br />"You have it the wrong way round. The burden of proof rests with the claimant."<br /><br />So, you're saying you're open to design?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02681466115131972888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-80636716658740271712014-12-02T16:25:21.738-08:002014-12-02T16:25:21.738-08:00Hi Darcy,
when I knew, it was too late. Perhaps i...Hi Darcy,<br /><br />when I knew, it was too late. Perhaps in the next, and you?<br />Prof. Eberlin is a great paladine of the cause. I think that the chemists have a great contribution to the scientific discussion for design: linear chains, high-energy intermediates, but when I knew about the chaperones, I said: "it is here". The logic of this class of enzymes surpass blind evolution. <br />Greetings from UFRGS, Brazil.Márcio Lazzarottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11020926346186509332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-51392996816247420052014-11-20T18:23:35.999-08:002014-11-20T18:23:35.999-08:00Facebook page of the First Brazilian Intelligent D...Facebook page of the First Brazilian Intelligent Design Congress, at the Royal Palm Plaza in Campinas, in the state of São Paulo.<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/congressodesigninteligente<br /><br />Márcio Lazzarotto, were you there?<br /><br />Greetings from Brazil!Darcyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08761021377330198537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-24827107581714824912014-10-27T10:39:17.693-07:002014-10-27T10:39:17.693-07:00Zachriel: An objection from IDers has been that co...Zachriel: An objection from IDers has been that complex things can't form from non-complex things.<br /><br />I've never heard anyone make that argument using your definition of complex.<br /><br />Zachriel: Not sure whose publication list to which you are referring.<br /><br />We were following your Jack Szostak link. <br /><br />Zachriel: Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure they are just ligating previously chosen sequences. It seems like 99.5% of the replication is being done by the authors, not the enzyme. I don't have access, but Joyce commenting on the paper claims it is work on the same cross catalyzing reactions they had done earlier. The problem with self replication is getting a stable enough secondary structure to have any catalytic activity while being bound loosely enough to be unfolded and read or used as a template.<br /><br />Zachriel: What does controversy have to do with it?<br /><br />I was asking what you thought was their greatest advance in regards to Alethinon61's statement. I guess I was speaking on his behalf. Perhaps he finds foaming fat compelling and will change his mind.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17904230581828301988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-6834160536168730622014-10-26T05:53:50.339-07:002014-10-26T05:53:50.339-07:00John: no, in any solution in equilibrium, availabl...<b>John</b>: <i>no, in any solution in equilibrium, available energy will cause half the reactions to be from less complex to more complex given your definition. </i><br /><br />We'll try to be more specific. An objection from IDers has been that complex things can't form from non-complex things. Miller-Urey shows this is not the case. On the other hand, abiogenesis researchers are more interested in the particulars, and the formation of nucleotide bases and other such molecules are considered important precursors in theories of abiogenesis. <br /><br /><b>John</b>: <i>I couldn't find a self replicating RNA in his publication list. Perhaps you're referring to his 1992 paper in Science? </i><br /><br />Not sure whose publication list to which you are referring. <br /><br />Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014.<br /><br /><b>John</b>: <i>I didn't know that was controversial either. </i><br /><br />What does controversy have to do with it? <br />Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-68186809014416961142014-10-25T11:13:42.137-07:002014-10-25T11:13:42.137-07:00Z: More complex than the precursors.
Z: Sure, but...Z: More complex than the precursors.<br /><br />Z: Sure, but it does solve one problem.<br /><br />no, in any solution in equilibrium, available energy will cause half the reactions to be from less complex to more complex given your definition.<br /><br />J: Even tryptophan is like 200 daltons.<br />Z: Branching iso-propyl cyanide have been found in the interstellar medium.<br /><br />I think you're going the wrong direction. That's a third of the size of tryptophan. There are reports of hydrogen in space as well.<br /><br />Z: That complex molecules can form in plausible primordial conditions.<br /><br />again, given your definition of complex, why would this be compelling?<br /><br />Z: That RNA can self-replicate.<br /><br />I couldn't find a self replicating RNA in his publication list. Perhaps you're referring to his 1992 paper in Science?<br /><br />Z: That vesicles can grow and divide.<br /><br />I didn't know that was controversial either. But I think the way his vesicles divide is more likely to be harmful and destructive to the processes he is hoping will develop. Perhaps microtubules and the extracellular matrix evolved at this time and in the same place also?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17904230581828301988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-43586550113434881562014-10-24T03:50:05.260-07:002014-10-24T03:50:05.260-07:00John: not complex
B: Can define "complex mo...<b>John</b>: <i>not complex </i><br /><br />B: Can define "complex molecules"? <br />Z: More complex than the precursors.<br /><br /><b>John</b>: <i>Even tryptophan is like 200 daltons.</i><br /><br />Branching iso-propyl cyanide have been found in the interstellar medium. <br /><br />Belloche et al, Detection of a branched alkyl molecule in the interstellar medium: iso-propyl cyanide, Science, 2014. <br /><br /><b>John</b>: <i>What do you consider their greatest advance germain to Alethinon61's assertion? </i><br /><br />That complex molecules can form in plausible primordial conditions. That RNA can self-replicate. That vesicles can grow and divide. <br /><br />There are even practical applications, such as advances in protein engineering. <br />Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-81956444502048885052014-10-24T03:02:24.845-07:002014-10-24T03:02:24.845-07:00Zachriel: "Scientist: Oh, look. Complex molec...Zachriel: "Scientist: Oh, look. Complex molecules spontaneously forming in plausible prebiotic conditions."<br /><br />not complex, not in the context of life. Even tryptophan is like 200 daltons.<br /><br />Zachriel: "Research into abiogenesis has been quite fruitful and has led to a number of insights. might want to check out Jack Szostak's work."<br /><br />What do you consider their greatest advance germain to Alethinon61's assertion?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17904230581828301988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-19630562127234817182014-10-23T12:36:47.821-07:002014-10-23T12:36:47.821-07:00Velikovskys,
I am an organic chemist, and when we ...Velikovskys,<br />I am an organic chemist, and when we propose a experiment, I do it and use that information to give credit, refuse or propose new knowledge. This is light. When I see these assumptions about the chemistry that would generate life, I see poor chemistry, poor arguments, poor reasoning and poor results. This is shadows, almost darkness, like medieval science. <br />But if you see some similarity with Gn 1.1, take it.Márcio Lazzarottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11020926346186509332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-86077254151217527782014-10-23T12:06:12.370-07:002014-10-23T12:06:12.370-07:00In reality, P, it is the evolutionist who slays sc...In reality, P, it is the evolutionist who slays science on the alter of metaphysical naturalism while the creationist is perfectly comfortable with what science actually can say. John Frantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749198450440662702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-37015713153744198812014-10-22T05:33:06.198-07:002014-10-22T05:33:06.198-07:00Steve: How do you test for the property of wetness...<b>Steve</b>: <i>How do you test for the property of wetness?</i><br /><br />Salts of cobalt.<br />http://tinyurl.com/ky469f3Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-40955615909987567172014-10-22T05:28:58.024-07:002014-10-22T05:28:58.024-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-88785085036324339812014-10-22T05:10:51.989-07:002014-10-22T05:10:51.989-07:00Steve: Zachriel, only responds to the squirrel in ...<b>Steve</b>: <i>Zachriel, only responds to the squirrel in the room, the point everybody does NOT dispute. </i><br /><br />That is incorrect. Márcio Lazzarotto disputed Miller-Urey by pointing out that the primitive atmosphere may have been different than was thought at the time. We responded that complex molecules also form in many other plausible primordial environments. He also pointed out that chemistry tends towards equilibrium, which neglects that there were energy sources available.<br /><br />You interjected into that conversation, ending on a false note. <br /><br /><b>Steve</b>: <i>It is how complex molecules can interact with other complex molecules and form something other than complex molecules. </i><br /><br />Sure. Abiogenesis is an interesting scientific question that is yet unanswered. Complex molecules form. Lipids form vesicles. RNA can probably replicate. But there's still a lot missing. <br /><br /> Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-4115845514015888332014-10-21T19:13:36.177-07:002014-10-21T19:13:36.177-07:00How does one test immaterial causes?
How do you t...<i>How does one test immaterial causes?</i><br /><br />How do you test for the property of wetness?<br /><br />Hmm, maybe with a mind??!!Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246115342112568778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-7645251317113241802014-10-21T19:09:31.666-07:002014-10-21T19:09:31.666-07:00Poor Zachriel, only responds to the squirrel in th...Poor Zachriel, only responds to the squirrel in the room, the point everybody does NOT dispute. Path of least resistance or is it noone thought to hit the stop button.<br /><br />Steve: How do complex molecules interact with complex molecules to form something other than complex molecules?<br /><br />Zahriel: complex molecules form all by themselves all the time, duh:<br /><br />Steve: Let's try that again. How do complex molecules interact with complex molecules to form something other than complex molecules?<br /><br />Zachriel: Come on, complex molecules form all by themselves ALL the time!!<br /><br />Steve: Looks behind Zachriel's head for a stop button. Lol, there IS one at the base of Zachriel's head. A direct line to the medulla oblongata!<br /><br />Steve: Presses the stop button.<br /><br />Zachriel: Hi, this is Zachriel and I want to talk to you about how complex molecules can form all by themselves without woo, magic skydaddies.......<br /><br />Steve: Can we get a mechanic in here??....now??!!...my bot swallowed a bug....Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246115342112568778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-37473107507455193192014-10-21T19:07:04.460-07:002014-10-21T19:07:04.460-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246115342112568778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-52221900239656478652014-10-21T06:51:43.739-07:002014-10-21T06:51:43.739-07:00ML,
I agree, we have a lot to learn. Actually the ...ML,<br />I agree, we have a lot to learn. Actually the "for instance" was about this" I prefer light."velikovskyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10957523527184649923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-88796036755329738762014-10-21T06:45:30.576-07:002014-10-21T06:45:30.576-07:00ale61:
And as long as they seek this insight withi...<i>ale61:<br />And as long as they seek this insight within the context of the presupposition of materialism, they'll probably never find the enlightenment they see</i><br /><br />How does one test immaterial causes?velikovskyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10957523527184649923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-181038940173047512014-10-21T04:56:18.409-07:002014-10-21T04:56:18.409-07:00Alethinon61: And as long as they seek this insight...<b>Alethinon61</b>: <i>And as long as they seek this insight within the context of the presupposition of materialism, they'll probably never find the enlightenment they seek.</i> <br /><br />Research into abiogenesis has been quite fruitful and has led to a number of insights. You might want to check out Jack Szostak's work. <br />http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-35144489942757268682014-10-21T04:55:38.860-07:002014-10-21T04:55:38.860-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-8360682432114027002014-10-21T04:52:34.335-07:002014-10-21T04:52:34.335-07:00Márcio Lazzarotto: or the models have been fixed f...<b>Márcio Lazzarotto</b>: <i>or the models have been fixed for this narrow requirement.</i><br /><br />Physicists who study stellar processes are in league with geologists who study the primordial Earth who are in league with biologists who study the origin of life. Wonder what they had to pay the solar scientists to come up with the whole Sun is getting brighter story. <br /><br />Of course, if you have actual evidence, then provide it. <br />Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-27954722951586215562014-10-21T04:39:35.319-07:002014-10-21T04:39:35.319-07:00ml,
The books are full of "should be" to...ml,<br />The books are full of "should be" to explain this. There are so many dark points in this story of creation. I prefer light.<br /><br />For instance?<br /><br />From "The evolution of Earth"<br /><br />atmosphere:<br /><br />Most probably the Earth's atmosphere was initially mainly composed of the light gaseous non-metal nitrogen, free and as both ammonia and hydrogen cyanide, and carbon oxides, some hydrogen, methane and helium. At first water was possibly present as a gas.<br /><br />probably, possibly<br /><br /><br />temperature:<br />The Sun's radiant energy as well as the atmosphere have altered with time; the Sun has increased by 30% in luminosity over 5 x 10 9 years, while the CO 2 cover has decreased more than 10-fold, and considerable amounts of methane may have been introduced by early life (see Kasting in Further Reading). The curious and fortuitous fact (known as the "faint young Sun paradox") is that the combination of the changes of the atmosphere, of CO2 and probably CH 4 especially, and of the Sun have been compensatory in total energy capture by the surface, so that over the whole period of existence of the cool planet, Earth, the surface temperature has been fixed within narrow limits of 300 +_ 30 K.<br /><br />sure? or the models have been fixed for this narrow requirement.<br /><br />pressure:<br />As mentioned, the pressure of gases on Earth's surface has probably fallen at least by a factor of 10-fold due to loss of gases and to other reactions to form solids, e.g. carbonates. (For a recent discussion of the early atmosphere see Chyba in Further Reading.) The pressure possibly settled close to its present value about 1 billion years ago.<br /><br />possibly<br /><br />composition<br />A second chemical observation of great interest here is that the hydrides other than water that were probably present in adequate amounts and which were required to initiate life notably CH4, NH 3, HCN, H2O, H2S, HzSe, contain all the elements to be found later in coded amino acids. Of these elements only carbon was also present as an oxide, CO and CO2.<br /><br />Probably...<br /><br />So, when the scientist take these assumptions, he shed shadows, the models are not trustly and some conditions are chosen to give the results. <br /><br />For instance, the double-helix of DNA only have sense in the final state. It is necessary the exclusion of water to have the hydrogen-bonding structure, and the deoxyribose perform this role. I think the the biology scientist are cheating theirselves, when they think that the chemists are working to validate these theories. The chemistry point to the opposite side, against the information storage.<br />On time, I found ammonia volcanoes (cryovolcanoes) only in Neptun.<br />Márcio Lazzarottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11020926346186509332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-88498004398595602302014-10-21T04:36:03.450-07:002014-10-21T04:36:03.450-07:00Steve: The elephant is not how complex molecules c...<b>Steve</b>: <i>The elephant is not how complex molecules can form. </i><br /><br />Scientist: Wonder if life formed in warm little pond? <br /><br />Naysayer: Complex molecules can't form all by themselves.<br /><br />Scientist: Oh, look. Complex molecules spontaneously forming in plausible prebiotic conditions. <br /><br />Naysayer: Squirrel! <br />Zachrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081260898264733380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-50142370199065419912014-10-21T03:47:47.556-07:002014-10-21T03:47:47.556-07:00"It is how complex molecules can interact wit..."It is how complex molecules can interact with other complex molecules and form something other than complex molecules."<br /><br />"True, that is what scientists are trying to find out,"<br /><br />And as long as they seek this insight within the context of the presupposition of materialism, they'll probably never find the enlightenment they seek. Alethinon61https://www.blogger.com/profile/09826280552590911315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-58959970169526046402014-10-20T19:49:48.214-07:002014-10-20T19:49:48.214-07:00Steve:
The elephant is not how complex molecules ...<i>Steve:<br /><br />The elephant is not how complex molecules can form. </i><br /><br />If complex molecules can't form then determining how they could interact if they could form would be pointless. <br /><br /><i>It is how complex molecules can interact with other complex molecules and form something other than complex molecules.</i><br /><br />True, that is what scientists are trying to find out, <br />velikovskyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10957523527184649923noreply@blogger.com