tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post6331061786927533778..comments2024-01-23T02:32:28.567-08:00Comments on Darwin's God: Metaphysics From John Ray to Nima Arkani-HamedUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-54554796160359842962015-10-09T05:50:35.678-07:002015-10-09T05:50:35.678-07:00Phillymike,
That's a brilliant idea. I'm t...Phillymike,<br />That's a brilliant idea. I'm taking that to the parents of my youth group kids. Thanks.ohandy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/07374693723371788011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-72557217781674936132015-10-04T13:16:00.429-07:002015-10-04T13:16:00.429-07:00William,
"Nic, thank you for the interesting...William,<br /><br />"Nic, thank you for the interesting and thought provoking discussion. It has been fun. But since the children refuse to allow the adults to talk, I must now out."<br /><br />William, you are welcome. I agree it has been fun. We will bump heads again shortly I'm sure.Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-88820829916159532742015-10-04T10:10:24.531-07:002015-10-04T10:10:24.531-07:00True, William Spearshake will not allow the adults...True, William Spearshake will not allow the adults to talk. What I aid is in the Bible and very relevant to the discussion, as any adult would have known.Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-6183880221863352442015-10-04T08:53:52.520-07:002015-10-04T08:53:52.520-07:00"Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the t...<i>"Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the test""</i><br /><br />Nic, thank you for the interesting and thought provoking discussion. It has been fun. But since the children refuse to allow the adults to talk, I must now out. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-43668874197798079092015-10-04T07:03:10.538-07:002015-10-04T07:03:10.538-07:00But to play the devil's advocate (pun intended...<i>But to play the devil's advocate (pun intended, but I couldn't resist), is it not possible that God would welcome such a test to provide evidence to people of the power of prayer? </i><br /><br />"Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the test"Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-37816321145598547712015-10-03T21:54:50.029-07:002015-10-03T21:54:50.029-07:00Nic: "Second, God is THE major factor in the ...Nic: "<i>Second, God is THE major factor in the outcome of prayer, do you really believe the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe cares about your little experiment to test whether or not you believe he answers prayer? Do you really think he is going to jump through your hoops and follow your rules?"</i><br /><br />No, of course he wouldn't care about my silly little test. But presumably he wouldn't refuse to respond to honestly given prayers to help truly suffering people just to teach me a lesson. That would seem rather childish and capricious. <br /><br />But to play the devil's advocate (pun intended, but I couldn't resist), is it not possible that God would welcome such a test to provide evidence to people of the power of prayer? <br /><br />And keep in mind, that a drug trial type test could never prove that prayers don't work, only provide evidence that they do. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-46319289161493919732015-10-03T21:18:52.202-07:002015-10-03T21:18:52.202-07:00ghostrider,
"There goes the stupidity again!...ghostrider,<br /><br />"There goes the stupidity again! Positive and negative evidence cancel out so the evidence can't be used. All of science and the legal profession are wrong, Creationist Nic has spoken!"<br /><br />There is no other way to put this, but you're as dense as a brick. Correction, denser.<br /><br />No, positive and negative do not cancel each other out making the evidence unusable. You're lack of reasoning is truly abysmal. All it means is that a piece of evidence which would have a positive effect for the prosecution would have a negative effect for the defence, but it is still the same piece of evidence.<br /><br />I'm serious, are you even in high school. With reasoning like you're displaying I would really doubt it.Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-65285936193285885692015-10-03T17:18:05.406-07:002015-10-03T17:18:05.406-07:00Nic
GR: "Nic, do you still claim there's...<i>Nic<br /><br />GR: "Nic, do you still claim there's no such thing as positive evidence?"<br /><br />Yep. Though evidence can be labeled as positive, it will still in some sense be also negative, with the end result being it is strictly just evidence.</i><br /><br />There goes the stupidity again! Positive and negative evidence cancel out so the evidence can't be used. All of science and the legal profession are wrong, Creationist Nic has spoken!<br /><br />Congratulations Nic. By doubling down on your stupidity you're now back ahead of Joe G in the race to the bottom. :)Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-21466211510197209832015-10-03T17:13:59.628-07:002015-10-03T17:13:59.628-07:00William,
Nic: "You still have not answered m...William,<br /><br />Nic: "You still have not answered my question regards Henry. Were the prayers for him answered?"<br /><br />William: "Who knows? Dying certainly ends his suffering, so in that way he was helped. If he went to heaven, then I presume that he was helped. If his pain was relieved, then he was helped. Or the prayers did nothing and his cancer just ran its course."<br /><br />Good grief, William, that's my point, you can't know. You just affirmed my argument, so why are you continuing to argue you CAN know?<br /><br />"But the one thing that is for certain is that if prayer was effective, the outcome would be different (even if it means dying sooner) than if the person was not the focus of prayer."<br /><br />What if the people were praying for Henry to die so as to end his suffering, would the prayers then have been effective? If Henry's death is what they were praying for and God granted their prayers, in what way must the outcome be different?<br /><br />"And if there is a difference, it can be measured,..."<br /><br />But that is exactly what you still have to demonstrate. You admit you can't know if Henry was helped or not and that is because you have no way of controlling how and what people pray for.<br /><br />When your drug varies in chemical composition your test of its effectiveness is impossible. Prayer is exactly that in nature, you do not know and cannot control what people are praying for and why.<br /><br />There are a couple of other factors you are failing to recognize. First, when people pray it is with the assumption that God does exist and he is able to answer prayer. William, no is an answer. All earnest and sincere prayers are answered by God, but they are not all always answered in the way those praying would like them to be answered.<br /><br />Second, God is THE major factor in the outcome of prayer, do you really believe the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe cares about your little experiment to test whether or not you believe he answers prayer? Do you really think he is going to jump through your hoops and follow your rules?<br /><br />That is why any test for the effectiveness of prayer is utter nonsense. Do I believe I've changed your mind? No, I don't, because like your comment to me earlier, I don't think you like the consequences of the facts.<br /><br />Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-64555856234475102202015-10-03T16:47:23.557-07:002015-10-03T16:47:23.557-07:00ghostrider,
"Nic, do you still claim there&#...ghostrider,<br /><br />"Nic, do you still claim there's no such thing as positive evidence?"<br /><br />Yep. Though evidence can be labeled as positive, it will still in some sense be also negative, with the end result being it is strictly just evidence. And despite your pea brained attempts to demonstrate otherwise my argument does not mean positive and negative cancel each other out resulting in no evidence at all. That, genius, was my point you could never catch on too.<br /><br />Again I ask, are you even out of high school?Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-77219517216681523932015-10-03T15:13:53.631-07:002015-10-03T15:13:53.631-07:00Nic, do you still claim there's no such thing ...Nic, do you still claim there's no such thing as <a href="http://legaldictionary.lawin.org/positive-evidence/" rel="nofollow">positive evidence?</a>Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-81219755957590149372015-10-03T14:37:52.189-07:002015-10-03T14:37:52.189-07:00Nic: "You still have not answered my question...Nic: <i>"You still have not answered my question regards Henry. Were the prayers for him answered?"</i><br /><br />Who knows? Dying certainly ends his suffering, so in that way he was helped. If he went to heaven, then I presume that he was helped. If his pain was relieved, then he was helped. Or the prayers did nothing and his cancer just ran its course. <br /><br />But the one thing that is for certain is that if prayer was effective, the outcome would be different (even if it means dying sooner) than if the person was not the focus of prayer. And if there is a difference, it can be measured, even if it was just the easing of the pain. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-64410420967594789612015-10-03T11:59:11.695-07:002015-10-03T11:59:11.695-07:00ghostrider,
"When someone says "if the ...ghostrider,<br /><br />"When someone says "if the police have positive evidence of one suspect's guilt and negative evidence which exonerates another suspect, the positive and negative cancel out so there is no evidence regarding either suspect"<br /><br />There is really no need to continue the demonstration of your total lack of understanding regards my comment, ghostrider. You've done an adequate job already.<br /><br />But, if you wish to keep digging the hole deeper go ahead, enjoy yourself.Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-14090907188068218382015-10-03T11:42:47.403-07:002015-10-03T11:42:47.403-07:00Nic
Amazing, you really don't get it.
When s...<i>Nic<br /><br />Amazing, you really don't get it.</i><br /><br />When someone says "if the police have positive evidence of one suspect's guilt and negative evidence which exonerates another suspect, the positive and negative cancel out so there is no evidence regarding either suspect" I get they don't have two functioning brain cells to rub together.<br /><br />That's FSTDT material Nic. Weapons-grade stupidity.Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-40896287017361831712015-10-03T09:49:55.559-07:002015-10-03T09:49:55.559-07:00William,
"If you are saying that statistics ...William,<br /><br />"If you are saying that statistics won't work because prayer acts on an individual, so does a drug."<br /><br />No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying prayer cannot be subjected to controlled scientific investigation the way drugs can. Quite different.<br /><br />"If prayer is effective, why wouldn't we expect to see the same?"<br /><br />It is, and we do. However, you're not seeing the variables involved which affect the outcome and place it outside the realm of basic scientific investigation. That is what I am trying to get you to recognize.<br /><br />You still have not answered my question regards Henry. Were the prayers for him answered?Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-15662672523253518762015-10-03T07:47:52.780-07:002015-10-03T07:47:52.780-07:00If you want to ascribe the anomalous data that is ...If you want to ascribe the anomalous data that is found in almost every drug trial to the effects of prayer, that would be an interestimg proposition, and one that we should be able to design a test to examine. A simple start, although by no means without its weaknesses, would be to survey participants in clinical trials on the religious strengths of themselves and their family. We could then examine the study data from that perspective. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-43946305450589772022015-10-03T07:09:15.126-07:002015-10-03T07:09:15.126-07:00"Forget drugs. We've already agreed the t..."<i>Forget drugs. We've already agreed the two are not analogous."</i><br /><br />No, we have agreed that prayer isn't a drug. Not that they can't be tested using the same process. <br /><br />If you are saying that statistics won't work because prayer acts on an individual, so does a drug. In drug trials, there are always people in the control group who have a better than average outcome, and people in the group receiving the drug who have a poorer than average outcome. If prayer is effective, why wouldn't we expect to see the same? Would not some people who have had nobody pray for them, and not prayed for themselves, have a better outcome than the average? And would there not be some who were prayed for who would have a worse outcome? That is why we use blind, controlled drug trials, and statistics to identify if any observed difference is significantly above what we would expect to happen by chance. <br /><br />What surprises me is that a person who believes in the efficacy of prayer would be so adamant that it cannot be tested. My informed "belief" is that humans share a common ancestor with all other life on the planet. I welcome all avenues that can be used to test this. Even those proposed by ID proponents. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-9587185045247403052015-10-02T21:29:40.039-07:002015-10-02T21:29:40.039-07:00William,
"A statistically significant differ...William,<br /><br />"A statistically significant difference in outcome,..."<br /><br />That's not your criteria. How would you analyze your results to determine the efficacy of prayer? What would need to happen to result in a 'statistically significant difference'?<br /><br />Take Henry as an example. <br /><br />"The same as for drugs."<br /><br />Forget drugs. We've already agreed the two are not analogous. Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-79623027975055855282015-10-02T18:05:25.017-07:002015-10-02T18:05:25.017-07:00A statistically significant difference in outcome,...A statistically significant difference in outcome, repeated in more than one trial. The same as for drugs. I would probably still have doubts, in the same way I do for drug trials. But the more significant the difference, the more compelling it would be. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-36317884520231190942015-10-02T14:57:47.130-07:002015-10-02T14:57:47.130-07:00William,
"But I don't see any insurmount...William,<br /><br />"But I don't see any insurmountable barriers to conducting an appropriate experiment."<br /><br />What is your critera for analyzing your data? What would need to happen as the result of prayer to have you conclude the prayers were answered, and intercessory prayer was effective?Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-38314777701889532492015-10-02T14:03:59.760-07:002015-10-02T14:03:59.760-07:00"First, you must realize prayer is not a drug..."<i>First, you must realize prayer is not a drug..."</i><br /><br />Agreed, but it is well known that the placebo effect is real and measurable. It is also known that a person's attitude (state of mind and well being) can have positive and negative impacts to health. And I think I remember reading somewhere that regular church goers tend to live longer than non-church goers. Which doesn't really surprise me. In addition to providing spiritual comfort, church can be a remarkable social bonding mechanism. <br /><br /><i>"...and as such cannot be put to the test in the same way that drugs can."</i><br /><br />In this we would disagree. The hardest part would be to control for the other factors (e.g., number of family and close friends (because even in the control group, close friends and family would presumably be praying for you). But I don't see any insurmountable barriers to conducting an appropriate experiment.William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-46534765641338214752015-10-02T09:57:16.273-07:002015-10-02T09:57:16.273-07:00The atheist and Christian could always say God doe...The atheist and Christian could always say God doesn't do enough. Marcushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05905104887549850614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-42384198452578320932015-10-02T09:37:20.339-07:002015-10-02T09:37:20.339-07:00William,
"other factors would have to be con...William,<br /><br />"other factors would have to be controlled for, but think it is manageable." <br /><br />First, you must realize prayer is not a drug and as such cannot be put to the test in the same way that drugs can. <br /><br />Henry is 60 yrs old and is suffering from terminal cancer. He has spent his whole life serving people, at home and for 35 yrs overseas as a Christian missionary. He has friends and relatives all over the world who love him dearly and are earnestly praying to God to help Henry. Three months later Henry dies. Were the prayers of these many individuals answered?Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-9045462081706788992015-10-02T09:18:13.649-07:002015-10-02T09:18:13.649-07:00Nic, I am not adverse to being shown why I am wron...Nic, I am not adverse to being shown why I am wrong. My example is obviously oversimplified, and other factors would have to be controlled for, but think it is manageable. <br /><br />But I do agree with you in that I don't think that it will identify any significant impact of prayer. But that is not the same as claiming that it will not give any scientific results. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-79733403861669395682015-10-02T07:30:01.172-07:002015-10-02T07:30:01.172-07:00ghostrider,
"Congratulations. You have now e...ghostrider,<br /><br />"Congratulations. You have now equaled Joe G's level of stupidity. Are you two going to race to the bottom?"<br /><br />Amazing, you really don't get it. Simply mind boggling. And you have the audacity to insult the intelligence of others.Nichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08693133888203943510noreply@blogger.com