tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post5875347358494561780..comments2024-01-23T02:32:28.567-08:00Comments on Darwin's God: The Warfare Thesis, Scientism and VaccinesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-26875254206178966342015-03-04T08:32:59.061-08:002015-03-04T08:32:59.061-08:00Nick Matzke:
Wow this is a dumb post. Saved and t...Nick Matzke:<br /><br /><i>Wow this is a dumb post. Saved and tweeted for posterity, as with the Hunter's other anti-vax post.<br /><br />Reasons it's dumb:<br /><br />1. The Warfare Thesis was supposed to be about science versus religion. The modern anti-vaccination movement is not primarily religious, it is primarily about liberal forms of quackery. Although, apparently Cornelius is seeking to link the two.</i><br /><br />The Warfare Thesis is, on the surface, about science versus religion. But those are broad categories. What the Warfare Thesis is really about is dismissal, delegitimization, demagoguery and scientism. You could say its motto is “Offense is the best defense.” Take non scientific, indefensible, positions and advance them with scathing criticism, ridicule and scorn of anyone who would dare so much as question them. That was amply demonstrated in the most important work advancing the Warfare Thesis, Andrew Dickson White’s late nineteenth century work which, yes, included a chapter on vaccines. As with his other myths, anyone who questioned vaccines, and they were known to be dangerous, must be a religious nut.<br /><br />Furthermore, religious convictions, as you Nick have so amply demonstrated so many times, are far more fundamental within the Warfare Thesis advocates, such as yourself, than without.<br /><br /><br /><i>2. Just where does Cornelius Hunter get off ignoring virtually all doctors, the strong fundamental logic and scientific understanding behind vaccination, and the massive weight of hundreds of studies of millions of vaccine patients?</i><br /><br />Ignoring doctors and ignoring evidence? How is it ignoring doctors and ignoring evidence to state indisputable facts? No doctor or researcher would tell you there is zero risk to vaccines. Such false claims are promoted by people like you, seeking to spread scorn and ridicule.<br /><br />The point is that vaccines, as with a great many medical procedures, do not fit well into scientific formulas and blanket statements. They are, however, wonderful devices for demagoguery and ridicule.<br /><br /><br /><i>One anecdotal case could have many, many explanations, including mere coincidence.</i><br /><br />That is sickening and dangerous. Even the conservative vaccine court agreed Lorrin Kain was devastated by vaccines. This absurdity comes right out of David Hume. You are doing precisely what you accuse me of, and using your logic there would be no basis for advocating for vaccines.<br /><br /><br /><i>3. The fact that ID people, allegedly pro-science, aren't even challenging Hunter on this, either here or at UD, says volumes about either their shoddy scientific acumen or their crazy preference for perverse contrarianism against the alleged dogma of mainstream science, even in the case where the public health is at stake.</i><br /><br />Unfortunately you have, once again, provided the perfect example, illustrating precisely the OP’s pointCornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-40163153895184614712015-03-04T05:54:26.755-08:002015-03-04T05:54:26.755-08:00Ian
I was exposed to communist atheist indoctrina...Ian<br /><br />I was exposed to communist atheist indoctrination when I was young. We were supposed to worship communist leaders. Now there is a new fashionable consumerism indoctrination happening in society. We are supposed to worship celebrities and consumer products. These are all empty worldviews that provide no fundamentals and basics for human society to function long term.<br />I would rather follow C.S. Lewis' advice than Dawkins, Haris, Krauss etcEugenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15513772766225981430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-12376855402290861592015-03-04T05:41:03.971-08:002015-03-04T05:41:03.971-08:00Wow this is a dumb post. Saved and tweeted for pos...Wow this is a dumb post. Saved and tweeted for posterity, as with the Hunter's other anti-vax post.<br /><br />Reasons it's dumb:<br /><br />1. The Warfare Thesis was supposed to be about science versus religion. The modern anti-vaccination movement is not primarily religious, it is primarily about liberal forms of quackery. Although, apparently Cornelius is seeking to link the two.<br /><br />2. Just where does Cornelius Hunter get off ignoring virtually all doctors, the strong fundamental logic and scientific understanding behind vaccination, and the massive weight of hundreds of studies of millions of vaccine patients? One anecdotal case could have many, many explanations, including mere coincidence.<br /><br />3. The fact that ID people, allegedly pro-science, aren't even challenging Hunter on this, either here or at UD, says volumes about either their shoddy scientific acumen or their crazy preference for perverse contrarianism against the alleged dogma of mainstream science, even in the case where the public health is at stake.NickMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765417807335152285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-59363970192061253322015-03-04T05:38:54.840-08:002015-03-04T05:38:54.840-08:00Wow this is a dumb post. Saved and tweeted for pos...Wow this is a dumb post. Saved and tweeted for posterity, as with the Hunter's other anti-vax post.<br /><br />Reasons it's dumb:<br /><br />1. The Warfare Thesis was supposed to be about science versus religion. The modern anti-vaccination movement is not primarily religious, it is primarily about liberal forms of quackery. Although, apparently Cornelius is seeking to link the two.<br /><br />2. Just where does Cornelius Hunter get off ignoring virtually all doctors, the strong fundamental logic and scientific understanding behind vaccination, and the massive weight of hundreds of studies of millions of vaccine patients? One anecdotal case could have many, many explanations, including mere coincidence.<br /><br />3. The fact that ID people, allegedly pro-science, aren't even challenging Hunter on this, either here or at UD, says volumes about either their shoddy scientific acumen or their crazy preference for perverse contrarianism against the alleged dogma of mainstream science, even in the case where the public health is at stake.NickMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765417807335152285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-60449326673236910522015-03-03T19:13:04.671-08:002015-03-03T19:13:04.671-08:00Ian:
much of this criticism is driven by the fear...Ian:<br /><br /><i>much of this criticism is driven by the fear that science could undermine the credibility and authority of religion</i><br /><br />The Warfare Thesis, in a nutshell.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-69329653267934944062015-03-03T18:48:27.697-08:002015-03-03T18:48:27.697-08:00They don't understand or admit it. It is poli...They don't understand or admit it. It is policy to say disagreeing with some conclusions in origin issues is disagreeing with all science.<br />The criticism is not driven by fear but sincere opinion that its error that contradicts the bible.<br />Its conclusions fighting conclusions.<br /><br />Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-10550670908198422272015-03-03T18:47:39.164-08:002015-03-03T18:47:39.164-08:00He's not the only doctor in the medical profes...He's not the only doctor in the medical profession.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11311738457332907931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-7468688142988472302015-03-02T20:38:05.843-08:002015-03-02T20:38:05.843-08:00"There is no such thing as a 100% safe therap..."There is no such thing as a 100% safe therapy or drug."<br /><br />You're not listening to Sanjay Gupta.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-87097364360682468692015-03-02T20:10:52.470-08:002015-03-02T20:10:52.470-08:00We are now living in a Warfare Thesis driven cultu...<i>We are now living in a Warfare Thesis driven culture. Vaccines, as with the other topics that have been subsumed by this mythology, are far more complicated than this dangerous scientism allows. Vaccines have a long history of causing a wide spectrum of injuries and death. That is a scientific fact that all responsible researchers and health practitioners understand.</i><br /><br />If you have to defend yourself against attacks then you can find yourself in a war situation whether you like it or not. The pharmaceutical and healthcare industries have found themselves under sustained attack from an anti-vaccine movement not discouraged in the slightest by the fact the the original research that inspired them has been discredited and withdrawn or that no other research has found a link between the MMR vaccine an autism. They are at war with science and will accept nothing other than unconditional surrender.<br /><br /><i>The message that vaccines carry no risk is simply a lie and an example of the dangers of White’s false history. Consider Lorrin Kain who died on December 22, 2009. In the spring of 1994, at the age of 6 weeks, Lorrin’s parents took their baby to be vaccinated. Their lives would never be the same. Lorrin sustained severe brain damage and would have uncontrolled seizures for the rest of her life. At the age of 15 she finally succumbed. And now the Kain’s are being told that the decision to vaccinate is clear-cut and that vaccines carry no risk.</i><br /><br />There is no such thing as a 100% safe therapy or drug. Thee is a saying in the pharmaceutical industry that a compound which has no side-effects has no effect. A lot of research is about maximizing the benefits of a treatment by minimizing risks which you can never entirely exclude.<br /><br />So while the case of someone like Lorrin Kain is undoubtedly tragic so are the cases of all the children who died from what are now preventable diseases like measles before vaccines became available. I'm sure we could find equally heartrending stories about such children. The only good thing that could be said to have come out of such loss are the vaccines that have prevented millions more such tragedies from ever happening. Would even the anti-vaxxers really prefer that all those children's lives had been lost. I don't think so.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11311738457332907931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-1151893692853901992015-03-02T19:44:23.012-08:002015-03-02T19:44:23.012-08:00I think we understand that not all critics of scie...I think we understand that not all critics of science are critical of all science. We also understand that much of this criticism is driven by the fear that science could undermine the credibility and authority of religion or, at least, some of their claims and judgments.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11311738457332907931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-28474649933201275382015-03-02T19:35:47.606-08:002015-03-02T19:35:47.606-08:00Lewis was, of course, quite comfortable with the r...Lewis was, of course, quite comfortable with the religious indoctrination to which children were subjected in the home and in the church long before they were capable of evaluating those claims critically.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11311738457332907931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-36720914041105194452015-03-02T12:28:56.638-08:002015-03-02T12:28:56.638-08:00Its so lame saying opponents of evolution are oppo...Its so lame saying opponents of evolution are opponents of scienc. That means hugh numbers of people.<br />Creationists are articulate that we oppose a few conclusions touching on origin issues.<br />We make our case. saying we oppose science is a cheap silly strangely desperate slur. It must be they know they can't say christian doctrines are false and be persuasive to chjristians. So the lame profiling.<br />They smell they are losing i think. Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-12633809561084957332015-03-02T05:09:53.004-08:002015-03-02T05:09:53.004-08:00Great article! Demonizing and belittling opponents...Great article! Demonizing and belittling opponents of materialist/atheist ideas is very important in the war of worldviews. So is indoctrination and conditioning of the young generation. Young have to be taught what to think.<br /><br /> “The very power of [textbook writers] depends on the fact that they are dealing with a boy: a boy who thinks he is ‘doing’ his ‘English prep’ and has no notion that ethics, theology, and politics are all at stake. It is not a theory they put into his mind, but an assumption, which ten years hence, its origin forgotten and its presence unconscious, will condition him to take one side in a controversy which he has never recognized as a controversy at all.” <br />― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of ManEugenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15513772766225981430noreply@blogger.com