tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post5134335825634331378..comments2024-01-23T02:32:28.567-08:00Comments on Darwin's God: The DNA Code and EvolutionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-49661546924330283182016-11-22T09:06:20.031-08:002016-11-22T09:06:20.031-08:00Ghostrider: If the mapping is arbitrary then show ...Ghostrider: <i>If the mapping is arbitrary then show how any codon can produce any arbitrary amino acid. Or better yet, make a codon sequence out of TinkerToys and see if it produces a TinkerToy protein.</i><br /><br />Wikipwdia:<br />Expanded genetic codes (synthetic biology)[edit]<br />Main article: Expanded genetic code<br />See also: Nucleic acid analogues<br />Since 2001, 40 non-natural amino acids have been added into protein by creating a unique codon (recoding) and a corresponding transfer-RNA:aminoacyl – tRNA-synthetase pair to encode it with diverse physicochemical and biological properties in order to be used as a tool to exploring protein structure and function or to create novel or enhanced proteins.[71] [72]<br /><br />H. Murakami and M. Sisido have extended some codons to have four and five bases. Steven A. Benner constructed a functional 65th (in vivo) codon <br /><br /> Xie J, Schultz PG (Dec 2005). "Adding amino acids to the genetic repertoire". Current Opinion in Chemical Biology. 9 (6): 548–54. doi:10.1016/j.cbpa.2005.10.011. PMID 16260173.<br />Jump up ^ Wang Q, Parrish AR, Wang L (Mar 2009). "Expanding the genetic code for biological studies". Chemistry & Biology. 16 (3): 323–36. doi:10.1016/j.chembiol.2009.03.001. PMC 2696486Freely accessible. PMID 19318213.<br /><br /><br />Fullfil this data your requirements?Blashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205610477389739651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-24379243283019668912016-11-20T04:45:23.348-08:002016-11-20T04:45:23.348-08:00So ghostrider thinks tat tRNAs create amino acids-...So ghostrider thinks tat tRNAs create amino acids-> they don't.<br /><br />It also thinks that the genetic code is governed by the laws of physics and chemistry-> It isn't and that is what makes it arbitrary. And that proves GR doesn't understand the meaning of the word "arbitrary".<br /><br />And finally this - <b>The arbitrariness of the genetic code</b>- is a peer-reviewed article and no amount of cowardly whining will ever change that.<br /><br />And to top it off the moron thinks its strawman/ red herring is an actual argument!<br /><br /><i>Where's that TinkerToy protein you formed from some TinkerToy DNA? </i><br /><br />Please make your case as to why you think that is relevant. I dare you to try. If you can't then just admit that you are an ignorant troll.Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-90052645078316005012016-11-20T04:35:45.110-08:002016-11-20T04:35:45.110-08:00OK, seeing that you won't support your claims ...OK, seeing that you won't support your claims as I have- then please tell us what determined the pairings- what determined which mRNA codon corresponds to its amino acid? If you can't say then it is clear the pairings are arbitrary.<br /><br />BTW there is no need to change any existing laws because they have nothing to do with the genetic code. It's as if you are proud of your ignoranceJoe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-44920523868818617612016-11-19T21:10:12.400-08:002016-11-19T21:10:12.400-08:00Joke G
BTW, arbitrary means that the existing ru...<i>Joke G<br /> <br />BTW, arbitrary means that the existing rules of chemistry and physics don't apply-</i><br /><br />LOL! Go ahead Joke. Tell us how you'd go about changing the existing laws of chemistry and physics. In the world of non-IDiots all reactions obey those physical laws.Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-85708734194063756922016-11-19T19:01:41.960-08:002016-11-19T19:01:41.960-08:00Joke G
Please support your claim with some academ...<i>Joke G<br /><br />Please support your claim with some academic reference. I have supported my claim with two.</i><br /><br />LOL! Sorry Joke but an ID-Creationist website making unsupported claims <b>isn't </b> an academic reference.<br /><br />Where's that TinkerToy protein you formed from some TinkerToy DNA? Looks like Mr. "it's all arbitrary!!" fell on his face again. :DGhostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-25648382916170067492016-11-19T18:53:33.994-08:002016-11-19T18:53:33.994-08:00BTW, arbitrary means that the existing rules of ch...BTW, arbitrary means that the existing rules of chemistry and physics don't apply- just as they don't apply to Morse code. <br /><br /><i>mRNA map through any known tRNA to create any known amino acid </i><br /><br />So in your world the tRNA creates the amino acid? Really?<br /><br /><i>with the existing rules of chemistry and physics</i><br /><br />They don't apply in an arbitrary situation.<br /><br />What definition of "arbitrary" are you using and why?<br /><br />Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-25524381648421588152016-11-19T18:46:44.350-08:002016-11-19T18:46:44.350-08:00that if you can't make any existing mRNA map t...<i>that if you can't make any existing mRNA map through any known tRNA to create any known amino acid with the existing rules of chemistry and physics then the mapping isn't arbitrary.</i><br /><br />Please support your claim with some academic reference. I have supported my claim with two.<br /><br /><i>How are you coming with that codon to protein using TinkerToys?</i><br /><br />Strawman at best and most likely a red herring.<br /><br />Why do you think that you can just pull something from your arse and it means something?<br /><br /><i>If it's all arbitrary then why can't you demonstrate it?</i><br /><br />I told you why it is arbitrary and provided two references to support my claim.<br /><br />Just because "certain combinations work" doesn't make it any less arbitrary than Morse code. <br /><br />The whole reason for Crick's "frozen accident" as an explanation for the genetic code is due to its arbitrary nature. There isn't any known law nor any force that determines what codon represents which amino acid.<br /><br />That is the definition of arbitrary with respect to the genetic code.<br /><br />So please either support your claims with something other than your own spewage or admit that you are ignorant of the subject.Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-81495062891335741632016-11-19T17:56:33.929-08:002016-11-19T17:56:33.929-08:00LOL! Joke the moron still doesn't get that if...LOL! Joke the moron still doesn't get that if you can't make any existing mRNA map through any known tRNA to create any known amino acid with the existing rules of chemistry and physics then <b>the mapping isn't arbitrary.</b> Certain combinations work Joke, most other combinations don't. Linking to IDiot websites with their unsupported claims doesn't help you Joke, any more than citing Behe, Axe, or Meyer helps your ID-Creationist claims.<br /><br />How are you coming with that codon to protein using TinkerToys? If it's all arbitrary then why can't you demonstrate it? Joke fails again.Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-22786754780378054732016-11-19T16:57:57.458-08:002016-11-19T16:57:57.458-08:00I missed this piece of unsupported whining:
As al...I missed this piece of unsupported whining:<br /><br /><i>As always your attempts to pull your foot out of your mouth by digging up an unrelated paper fail miserably.</i><br /><br />The paper refutes you. Is that why you claim it is unrelated? Or are you too stupid to understand what it says?Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-23565531733897272452016-11-19T16:55:57.211-08:002016-11-19T16:55:57.211-08:00Here is another article that supports my claim: Co...Here is another article that supports my claim: <a href="http://www.codebiology.org/" rel="nofollow"><b>Code Biology</b></a>:<br /><br /><i>The genetic code<br /><br />In protein synthesis, a sequence of nucleotides is translated into a sequence of amino acids, and the bridge between them is realized by a third type of molecules, called transfer-RNAs, that act as adaptors and perform two distinct operations: at one site they recognize groups of three nucleotides, called codons, and at another site they receive amino acids from enzymes called aminoacyl-tRNA-synthetases. The key point is that there is no deterministic link between codons and amino acids since it has been shown that any codon can be associated with any amino acid (Schimmel 1987; Schimmel et al. 1993). Hou and Schimmel (1988), for example, introduced two extra nucleotides in a tRNA and found that that the resulting tRNA was carrying a different amino acid. This proved that the number of possible connections between codons and amino acids is potentially unlimited, and only the selection of a small set of adaptors can ensure a specific mapping. This is the genetic code: a fixed set of rules between nucleic acids and amino acids that are implemented by adaptors. In protein synthesis, in conclusion, we find all the three essential components of a code: (1) two independents worlds of molecules (nucleotides and amino acids), (2) a set of adaptors that create a mapping between them, and <b>(3) the proof that the mapping is arbitrary because its rules can be changed. </b></i><br /><br />Two for me and still zero for youJoe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-45336461515147843402016-11-19T16:50:30.921-08:002016-11-19T16:50:30.921-08:00Nice assertion. Yet, you allowed that one to be po...<i>Nice assertion. Yet, you allowed that one to be posted and not the other three.</i><br /><br />Sorry, Darwin's God had nothing to do with whatever happened to your comments.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-4327064040305242822016-11-19T16:43:49.565-08:002016-11-19T16:43:49.565-08:00The onus is on the coward claiming the challenge t...The onus is on the coward claiming the challenge to be phony. I cannot prove a negative<br /><br /><i>If the mapping is arbitrary then show how any codon can produce any arbitrary amino acid.</i><br /><br />It isn't mine to change, duh. However it is arbitrary in that it is not determined by any law. There isn't any physio-chemical reason the code has to be the way it is.<br /><br />Read a biology book on the subject- google is also your friend.<br /><br />AGAIN: <a href="http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B%3ABIPH.0000024412.82219.a6?no-access=true" rel="nofollow"><b>The arbitrariness of the genetic code</b></a>:<br /><br /><b>Abstract</b><br /><br /><i><b>The genetic code has been regarded as arbitrary in the sense that the codon-amino acid assignments could be different than they actually are.</b> This general idea has been spelled out differently by previous, often rather implicit accounts of arbitrariness. They have drawn on the frozen accident theory, on evolutionary contingency, on alternative causal pathways, and on the absence of direct stereochemical interactions between codons and amino acids. It has also been suggested that the arbitrariness of the genetic code justifies attributing semantic information to macromolecules, notably to DNA. I argue that these accounts of arbitrariness are unsatisfactory. <b>I propose that the code is arbitrary in the sense of Jacques Monod's concept of chemical arbitrariness: the genetic code is arbitrary in that any codon requires certain chemical and structural properties to specify a particular amino acid, but these properties are not required in virtue of a principle of chemistry.</b> This notion of arbitrariness is compatible with several recent hypotheses about code evolution. I maintain that the code's chemical arbitrariness is neither sufficient nor necessary for attributing semantic information to nucleic acids.</i><br /><br />And yes the mRNA codon is a symbol representing the amino acid output.Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-26075717403590069632016-11-19T16:18:26.234-08:002016-11-19T16:18:26.234-08:00"Your response to #4 is fake news."
Nic..."<i>Your response to #4 is fake news."</i><br /><br />Nice assertion. Yet, you allowed that one to be posted and not the other three. <br /><br />But let's examine your false assertion. Yes, before knowledge of mutations, and other sources of available variation, were understood, the evolutionists were stumped. But guess what? The scientists kept working on it and found these sources. Maybe IDists should try the same approach. Actually do some research. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-79806248572552186212016-11-19T15:54:55.337-08:002016-11-19T15:54:55.337-08:00Joke G
It isn't a phony challenge
Only a mo...<i>Joke G<br /><br />It isn't a phony challenge </i><br /><br />Only a moron Creationist would think that phony "challenge" was above board.<br /><br /><i>"If the mapping is arbitrary then show how any codon can produce any arbitrary amino acid." <br /><br />That isn't what arbitrary means in this case</i><br /><br />It's <b>exactly</b> what "arbitrary" means when talking about using arbitrary symbols as abstractions in a designed code Joke. As always your attempts to pull your foot out of your mouth by digging up an unrelated paper fail miserably.Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-40848402176994208162016-11-19T15:33:22.979-08:002016-11-19T15:33:22.979-08:00It isn't a phony challenge and only a coward w...It isn't a phony challenge and only a coward would say that it was.<br /><br /><i>If the mapping is arbitrary then show how any codon can produce any arbitrary amino acid. </i><br /><br />That isn't what arbitrary means in this case. It is arbitrary in that it isn't determined by any laws nor is it necessary to be the way it is.<br /><br /><a href="http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B%3ABIPH.0000024412.82219.a6?no-access=true" rel="nofollow"><b>The arbitrariness of the genetic code</b></a>Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-60487359539023607432016-11-19T14:46:01.653-08:002016-11-19T14:46:01.653-08:00Your response to #4 is fake news. While evolutioni...Your response to #4 is fake news. While evolutionists now attempt to contrive these sorts of explanations, years agoe before the code's special properties were fully appreciated, evolutionists understood and agreed that evolving the code was problematic.<br /><br />Oh how incredible it would be if the normal levels of genetic variation somehow aligned with the code's evolutionary changes.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-58023729416371741902016-11-19T14:31:53.606-08:002016-11-19T14:31:53.606-08:00"More fake news."
What part was fake? T..."<i>More fake news."</i><br /><br />What part was fake? The part where I pointed out that DNA is not universal, just global? Or the part where I pointed out that if DNA is the only game in town that it must have unique properties? Or the part where I pointed out that most mutations are detrimental? Although, in re-reading your OP, I admit that my latter point did not really address your OP. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-4559594137387312732016-11-19T14:27:47.225-08:002016-11-19T14:27:47.225-08:00Joke G
If that were true then you could win 10 mi...<i>Joke G<br /><br />If that were true then you could win 10 million dollars.</i><br /><br />LOL! Creationists sure love their phony "challenges", don't they? I bet you fell for Kent Hovind's phony $250K "prove evolution" challenge too.<br /><br /><i>Of course it does. RNA codons represent amino acids they do not become them. It is as arbitrary as Morse Code.</i><br /><br />If the mapping is arbitrary then show how any codon can produce any arbitrary amino acid. Or better yet, make a codon sequence out of TinkerToys and see if it produces a TinkerToy protein.<br /><br />Joke fails Science 101 yet again. :)Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-46361213594030765842016-11-19T14:04:12.929-08:002016-11-19T14:04:12.929-08:00More fake news.More fake news.Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-18199315504497762362016-11-19T14:02:36.658-08:002016-11-19T14:02:36.658-08:00Everything apparently runs in threes. I had three ...Everything apparently runs in threes. I had three disappear as well. That seems to be a common behaviour of moderators at ID sites. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-89504272981726272132016-11-19T13:51:55.642-08:002016-11-19T13:51:55.642-08:00No one said that mere complexity requires intellig...No one said that mere complexity requires intelligence. Dembski and others have said the opposite. Someday you will stop attacking your cartoon version of ID.Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-56425963153110050282016-11-19T13:50:41.064-08:002016-11-19T13:50:41.064-08:00Ghostrider:
That is demonstrably false.
If that ...Ghostrider:<br /><i>That is demonstrably false. </i><br /><br />If that were true then you could win 10 million dollars.<br /><br /><i>Codes that use arbitrary symbols as abstractions to map inputs to outputs require an intelligence but the genetic code doesn't use arbitrary symbols as abstractions in its mapping.</i><br /><br />Of course it does. RNA codons represent amino acids they do not become them. It is as arbitrary as Morse Code. Even biochemist Larry Moran admits to that. He thinks nature can do it but he hasn't a clue how. http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/02/real-genetic-code.html<br /><br />The genetic code, as with ALL codes, is arbitrary with RNA codons representing amino acids. Biology 101.<br /><br />Thank you for proving your ignorance on the matter.<br /><br /><i> Things like the climate information encoded in tree rings,</i><br /><br />LoL! Tree rings are not a code.<br /><br />Buy a vowel...Joe Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08305194278121208230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-80790963339827625252016-11-19T12:11:29.289-08:002016-11-19T12:11:29.289-08:00Google figured out you were fake news...Google figured out you were fake news...Cornelius Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283098537456505707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-24939824166605256122016-11-19T12:06:09.187-08:002016-11-19T12:06:09.187-08:00Complexity does not require intelligence to form. ...Complexity does not require intelligence to form. Some day creationists will realize that simple fact.Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3855268335402896473.post-64703131172099083612016-11-19T12:04:07.065-08:002016-11-19T12:04:07.065-08:00Joe G
To our knowledge the only way that codes ar...<i>Joe G<br /><br />To our knowledge the only way that codes arise is via intelligent agency intervention.</i><br /><br />That is demonstrably false. Codes that use arbitrary symbols as abstractions to map inputs to outputs require an intelligence but the genetic code doesn't use arbitrary symbols as abstractions in its mapping. There are plenty of well known natural non-intelligent processes that follow physical laws to map inputs to outputs. Things like the climate information encoded in tree rings, the spectral data encoded in starlight, and the morphological information encoded in DNA.<br /><br />Hopefully this post won't vanish too.Ghostriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04686873801972423841noreply@blogger.com