Saturday, May 20, 2017

The Real Problem With Convergence

Worse Than Lightning Striking Twice

Biology is full of convergence—repeated designs in distant species. Marsupials and placentals, for instance, are mammals with different reproductive designs (placentals have significant growth in the embryonic stage attached to the nutrient-rich placenta whereas marsupials have no placenta and experience significant development after birth) but otherwise with many similar species. The marsupial flying phalanger and placental flying squirrel, for example, have distinctive similarities, including their coats that extend from the wrist to the ankle giving them the ability to glide long distances. But evolutionists must believe that these distinctive similarities evolved separately and independently because one is a marsupial and the other is a placental, and those two groups must have divided much earlier in evolutionary history. Simply put, evolution’s random mutations must have duplicated dozens of designs in these two groups. Isn’t that kind of like lightning striking twice?

It is kind of like lightning striking twice but for evolutionists—who already have accepted the idea that squirrels, and all other species for that matter, arose by chance mutations—this is not difficult to believe. It simply happened twice rather than once (or several times, in the cases of a great many convergences).

What is often not understood however, by both evolutionists and their critics, is that convergence poses a completely different theoretical problem. Simply put, a fundamental evidence and motivation for evolution is the pattern of similarities and differences between the different species. According to evolutionary theory, the species fall into an evolutionary pattern with great precision. Species on the same branch in the evolutionary tree of life share a close relationship via common descent. Therefore they share similarities with each other much more consistently than with species on other branches.

This is a very specific pattern, and it can be used to predict differences and similarities between species given a knowledge of where they are in the evolutionary tree.

Convergence violates this pattern. Convergence reveals striking similarities across different branches. This leaves evolutionists struggling to figure out how the proverbial lightning could strike twice, as illustrated in a recent symposium:

Does convergence primarily indicate adaptation or constraint? How often should convergence be expected? Are there general principles that would allow us to predict where and when and by what mechanisms convergent evolution should occur? What role does natural history play in advancing our understanding of general evolutionary principles?

It is not a good sign that here in the twenty first century evolutionists are still befuddled by convergence, which is rampant in biology, and how it could occur. This certainly is a problem for the theory.

But a more fundamental problem, which evolutionists have not reckoned with, is that convergence violates the evolutionary pattern. Regardless of adaptation versus constraint explanations, and any other mechanisms evolutionists can or will imagine, the basic fact remains: a fundamental evidence and prediction of evolution is falsified.

The species do not fall into the expected evolutionary pattern.

The failure of fundamental predictions—and this is a hard failure—is fatal for scientific theories. It leaves evolution not as a scientific theory but as an ad hoc, story-telling, procedure. The species reveal the expected evolutionary pattern—except when they don’t. In those cases, they reveal some other pattern.

So regardless of where you position yourself in this debate, please understand that attempts to explain convergence under evolutionary theory, while important in normal science, do nothing to remedy the underlying theoretical problem, which is devastating.

Religion drives science, and it matters.

44 comments:

  1. Hi Cornelius
    Do you have an idea when the concept of convergent evolution started. Why wasn't this point a major bottleneck for the TOE?

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    1. Good question Bill. Would be interesting to trace the history of the awareness. Darwin did address it tangentially, but an awareness of the sheer magnitude of convergence did not seem to develop until later in 20th c. By that time evolution was fully accepted, so convergence, as well as the many other emerging problems, are viewed as research problems--not problems that go beyond normal science.

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    2. Darwin, Origin of Species, Convergence of Character: It is incredible that the descendants of two organisms, which had originally differed in a marked manner, should ever afterwards converge so closely as to lead to a near approach to identity throughout their whole organisation. If this had occurred, we should meet with the same form, independently of genetic connection, recurring in widely separated geological formations; and the balance of evidence is opposed to any such an admission.

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  2. LOL! You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here Cornelius.

    Convergence occurs in evolution because there are only a finite number of biomechanical solutions to the problems of survival faced by species. It is therefore no surprise that sometimes distantly related species hit on a very similar solution. Sharks and dolphins are both streamlined not because God likes that form but because that shape moves most efficiently through the water. We even see such convergence at the molecular level where the physical properties of the prestin gene aid the reception of high frequency echo location sounds in some species of both bats and whales. It's simple physics, no POOFING magic required.

    Convergent evolution is only a problem to those ignorant or dishonest enough to ignore what science knows on the topic.

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  3. Cornelius, why did you cut off this part of the abstract where the author goes on to explain the paper answers the questions you quote mined?

    "Does convergence primarily indicate adaptation or constraint? How often should convergence be expected? Are there general principles that would allow us to predict where and when and by what mechanisms convergent evolution should occur? What role does natural history play in advancing our understanding of general evolutionary principles? In this introductory article, I address these questions, review several generalizations about convergent evolution that have emerged over the past 15 years, and present a framework for advancing the study and interpretation of convergence. Perhaps the most important emerging conclusion is that the genetic mechanisms of convergent evolution are phylogenetically conserved; that is, more closely related species tend to share the same genetic basis of traits, even when independently evolved."

    That wasn't very honest of you, was it?

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    1. "Cornelius, why did you cut off this part of the abstract where the author goes on to explain the paper answers the questions you quote mined?"
      That was a rhetorical question, right?

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    2. No, it "wasn't very honest of you" to suggest a design pattern supports evolution or changes anything from the above. As your fellow evolutionist admitted, “If these were the result of the same DNA, you might have an argument.” That is precisely what the text you so proudly bolded explains.

      https://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-real-problem-with-convergence.html?showComment=1495336285065#c1766470537426000614

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    3. more closely related species tend to share the same genetic basis of traits, even when independently evolved.

      So under evolution, we would be forced to say that the same design is created by the same molecular mechanism in similar species, yet it is *not* a consequence of common descent. IOW, the evolutionary pattern, which is claimed as such powerful evidence for evolution, is broken. The same design, created by the same molecular mechanism, in similar species, might be a consequence of common descent, or then again as in these examples, it might not be. Therefore this cannot be powerful evidence for evolution. That was the point of the OP, which your bolded text reinforces. 2 points for own goal.

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    4. If I understand correctly, 'How can genetic similarity imply common descent when it could just as easily be attributed to "simple physics" any time it's convenient?' In this case, "simple physics" is just an appeal to the tautology of 'natural selection is capable of ferreting out whatever works.' It's not surprising that it's works so well because that's the stuff Evolution can make! How can Evolution make it? Because Evolution operates by finding what works! It's the "simple physics" of flittering about through sequence space with amazing phenotypic solutions as strange attractors through no-one-knows-what laws. More physics envy.

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    5. Tertium Quid: 'How can genetic similarity imply common descent when it could just as easily be attributed to "simple physics" any time it's convenient?'

      It's not a mere similarity, but a nested grouping of traits, that implies common descent. While convergence can result in unrelated lines sharing particular characteristics, the overall nesting of traits remains. See Darwin quote above.

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    6. Dirt worshipper:

      It's not a mere similarity, but a nested grouping of traits, that implies common descent.

      A nested hierarchy does not imply common descent, moron. It implies common design. All computer programmers know this. They call it object oriented design. It results in a nested tree. Some computer languages also allow horizontal or multiple inheritance. The result is a tree that is mostly nested.

      There is nothing in the genetic record that supports the bullshit superstition known as Darwinian evolution. It all points to design. Any other interpretation is nonsense, the work of a stupid cult of gutless jackasses and ass kissers hellbent on denying the existence of God while basing their arguments on what God would or would not do. You dirt worshippers will not prevail. Your time in the limelight will soon come to an end.

      That is what you are, Zachriel. An ass kisser.

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    7. Louis Savain: A nested hierarchy does not imply common descent ... It implies common design.

      Humans design does not form a nested hierarchy of traits. That's because of extensive trading across lineages.

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    8. Dirt worshipper:

      Humans design does not form a nested hierarchy of traits. That's because of extensive trading across lineages.

      I just gave an example where human design results in nested hierarchies and you got the nerve to write this reply? You are not just an ass kisser, Zachriel, you are gutless. A maggot has more backbone than you do. In addition, you assume that other people are just as stupid and morally bankrupt as you are and you insist on insulting their intelligence and their morality.

      For those who care: Any bottom up design method that is based on a mechanism of code inheritance necessarily generates a nested or mostly nested class hierarchy. Software object oriented design (OOD) and genetic design are both bottom up and inheritance based. Think about it.

      PS. You are a jackass, Zachriel. LOL

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    9. Louis Savain: I just gave an example where human design results in nested hierarchies and you got the nerve to write this reply?

      Humans sometimes do use hierarchical patterns, military organizations are another example; but human designed artifacts generally do not form a well-defined hierarchical grouping. Try it with cars, for instance.

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    10. What humans do has nothing to do with the point under discussion. You claimed that nested hierarchies imply Darwinian common descent. I am saying it's bullshit. I am saying that any bottom-up intelligent design method (whether or not it's used by humans is irrelevant) that is based on code inheritance necessarily results in a nested hierarchy. Deny if you are a fool or a liar.

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    11. Louis Savain: You claimed that nested hierarchies imply Darwinian common descent.

      We are using the term "imply" as in scientific inference, per Tertium Quid's comment.

      Yes, it is possible to hypothesize another cause for the nested pattern. Tertium Quid suggested that simple physics might be an explanation, but that would not explain the overall pattern.

      You suggest it is due to "code inheritance", which is just another way of saying common descent. The difference, presumably, is that "code inheritance" is planned.

      Louis Savain: Deny if you are a fool or a liar.

      This is off-topic, but you seem unduly stressed. Are you okay?

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    12. Note to self:

      Stop arguing with psychopaths and the demon-possessed.

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  4. "Convergence violates this pattern. Convergence reveals striking similarities across different branches."

    Convergence reveals striking similarities in phenotype across different branches. If these were the result of the same DNA, you might have an argument.

    There are only so many ways for a quadruped to fly, or glide, or swim fast. Physics dictates this. As such, striking similarities in phenotypes are inevitable. But if you would bother to look beneath the skin you will find striking differences in how they achieve the same end point.

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    1. If these were the result of the same DNA, you might have an argument.

      So "same DNA" in species separated 100 mya would be a problem?

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    2. So "same DNA" in species separated 100 mya would be a problem?

      Are you kidding? Nothing is a problem for Darwinists. And I predict that this is precisely what will be found in the genetic record of distant species. I'm surprised it has not been found yet.

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    3. If these were the result of the same DNA, you might have an argument.

      And if not the same DNA it shows that DNA is not the determining factor.

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    4. WS
      "There are only so many ways for a quadruped to fly, or glide, or swim fast. Physics dictates this. As such, striking similarities in phenotypes are inevitable. But if you would bother to look beneath the skin you will find striking differences in how they achieve the same end point."

      Are you making the claim that natural selection can evolve flight more that once?

      How many molecular changes do you think are required to go from a land dwelling animal to a flying animal?

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    5. Are you making the claim that natural selection can evolve flight more that once?

      Flight has evolved at least four different ways - in bats, birds, insects, and pterosaurs.

      Why did your Unintelligent Designer have to re-invent the wheel so many times?

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    6. Dirt worshipper proudly writes:

      Why did your Unintelligent Designer have to re-invent the wheel so many times?

      Nobody is reinventing the wheel, you brainless worm. There is such a thing as art and variety in art and it can be observed all over the biosphere. If the intelligent designers were reinventing the wheel, there would not be so much genetic commonality between the species. The tree of life is the ultimate sign of the intelligent reuse of previous designed stuff. You idiots refuse to accept this truth because you are gutless.

      Now, what you bozos are deathly afraid of is that the same complex genetic sequences will be found in distant species for a trait that appeared independently at different times. You will defecate on yourselves when that happens because your BS will be unmasked for everyone to see.

      Get a clue, Mr. gutless Dirt worshipper.

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    7. LOL! As always Louis, you are by far the best spokesman for ID the evolutionary sciences could ever hope for. :)

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    8. Go pound sand or something and see if I care. The end comes sooner than you think. Gutless dirt worshipper.

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    9. GR:
      Flight has evolved at least four different ways - in bats, birds, insects, and pterosaurs.

      That is your untestable opinion, anyway.

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    10. "How many molecular changes do you think are required to go from a land dwelling animal to a flying animal?
      723. :)

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    11. So "same DNA" in species separated 100 mya would be a problem?
      100 mya of independent evolution? I would think that every time something like this is found it is simply attributed to horizontal gene transfer. HGT umbrellas even more epicycles (and wilder ones) than phylogenetic tree parsimony. It does most of the heavy lifting now in saving the theory.

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    12. Tertium Quid: HGT umbrellas even more epicycles (and wilder ones) than phylogenetic tree parsimony.

      Horizontal gene transfer is hardly an 'epicycle', but a directly observed mechanism in biology.

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    13. Zachriel: I think it's a misnomer to call it a mechanism. Some HGT is attributable to a known maechanism (e.g. a virus). Just because some cases are attributed in this way, that doesn't mean that everything that doesn't match common descent can be shoved under that umbrella. If another mechanism became known that seemed more plausible than viruses (e.g. capable of explaining better mass introductions of fortuitious swaths of genetic code) then theorists would be sighing in relief. This is one of those cases where biology suffers confusion in its terms. HGT should be more properly thought of as a phenomenon of tree construction, that can be sometimes properly explained by a mechanism such as viral transplant or retrogression. Conflating explanans with explananda is part of the sloppiness of theoretical biology and has a lot to do with its ideological nature. Thoughts, Cornelius?

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    14. Tertium Quid: Just because some cases are attributed in this way, that doesn't mean that everything that doesn't match common descent can be shoved under that umbrella.

      There are several known mechanisms of horizontal gene transfer, from retroviruses to hybridization.

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  5. The problem with Darwinian evolution is that lightning never strikes at all. It never happens because the curse of dimensionality kills all lightning strikes dead before they can even be conceived. The size of the search space prohibits it. It's simple math but Darwinists are too stupid to get it. It's a form of cowardice, really. It takes guts to accept the truth and Darwinists are gutless worms, every single one of them.

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  6. The way I understand it is that in science we don't do proofs, we use the preponderance of evidence. This means that we look at the quality of the evidence as well as the quantity. The evidence for evolution based on thw ovwrall pattern has so many exceptions to the pattern that need to be explained away that it means that the evidence is of poor quality.

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  7. Straight from the mouth of babes - evolution is necessary to protect secularism (the science doesn't matter):

    When Dr. Snelling, a creationist scientist, applied for a permit to study the Grand Canyon the Park Service vetted the proposal with three evolutionists. In rejecting the proposal Dr. Huntoon says: "[It] is not a question of fairness to all points of view, but rather adherence to your narrowly defined institution mandate predicated in part on the fact that ours is a secular society as per our constitution."

    http://www.conservativenewsandviews.com/2017/05/11/creation/grand-canyon-legal-battleground/

    Religion drives science, and it matters.

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    1. A very good point. I doubt that a state-run school has ever taught the truth about the First Amendment in the last 50 years. Most people don't know that it doesn't guarantee a separation of church and government, let alone a secular society and controlling which hypotheses we're allowed to investigate. If anything, it was supposed to keep the government from controlling how our belief systems determine our way of life. Somehow that statists think that "free exercise" is limited to what happens in a place of worship. That's not what the People thought it meant when it was ratified. Statists relish controlling people, and they relish flipping the meaning of laws that were written as restrictions on government interference.

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  8. Dr. Hunter, there's a Phys.Org article today on a marine reptile where convergence is invoked again. You might be interested.

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  9. Amen . BINGO. Convergent evolution is the soft underbelly of evolutionist error!
    I say marsupials are just placentals.
    However its a interesting point brought up here.
    They do make thier trees and predictions about biology based on likeness in traits.
    So convergence actually defeats this. why should likeness work if always convergence is a threat??
    If any trait/series of traits is a path then convergence in nature destroys the concept its a path.
    Anyways.
    A marsupial wolf is just another wolf like everywhere else.
    Both evos and creos need to allow other options for mechanisms that bring likeness.
    Only in marsupials the likeness is the marsupial traits and a few others. no big deal.

    If mr Hunter reads this i ask him. Does he think marsupial lions, moles, bears, wolves, squirrels were created on creation week and carried on the ark and migrateds, carpooling , to Austraklia/south america?
    Or they are just minor adapted creatures , the same as the rest, upon migration to those areas.
    Did god create marsupial squirrels and our squirrels??

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    1. I say marsupials are just placentals.
      I don't know what that sentence is trying to convey.

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  10. "A marsupial wolf is just another wolf like everywhere else."

    Except, of course, it faces in the other direction.

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    1. Stand in the place where you are. Forget about direction.

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