Monday, July 5, 2010

Genomic Junk and Evolution

Evolution was claimed to be an undeniable fact in the nineteenth century so today new proofs hardly seem necessary. But science continues to offer them up, say evolutionists, as we probe the depths of biology. These days a common source of such proofs is the genomic data which exploded onto the scene in recent decades. But are the new data really undeniable confirmations of Enlightenment speculation or are the new data merely interpreted according to the same old metaphysics?

The genomic revolution has taught us that genomes contain far more than an inventory of genes. Included is a genomic cast of characters, including viruses, pseudogenes, and LINEs and SINEs (long and short interspersed elements, respectively), to name a few. Evolutionists were quick to find that such intruders were not only useless junk but in accordance with common descent—they appear in the same genetic location in cousin species. Such evidence, according to evolutionists, proved their theory yet again, and once and for all.

The molecular revolution was providing the usual evidence of dysteleology, but it was coupled with commonality across species. The so-called shared error evidence, like identical typos in homework assignments from different students, provided the ultimate proof text of a common source. There could no longer be any doubt, evolution was mandated by the evidence.

Evidential Problems

Indeed there is much evidence here that supports evolution. But there are problems as well. Occasionally, for instance, this genomic junk does not align with the pattern required by common descent but instead mysteriously appears where it shouldn’t (such as in distant species rather than close cousins) or is absent from where it should be (such as in a particular species among many).

Such anomalies can be explained by various mechanisms. Perhaps junk occasionally goes missing because it failed to become fixed in the population, though it succeeded in cousin species. Or perhaps DNA repair processes sometimes erase the junk repeatedly and independently in cousin species. Or perhaps insertion site preferences cause the same pattern to appear in distant species.

Aside from speculation, we don’t know how evolution created such mechanisms. But given their existence and utility in explaining anomalous patterns, this means that evolutionists can explain a wide variety of patterns. And that means the particular pattern we do observe is less compelling evidence for evolution.

The Finding of Function and Theory-Dependent Interpretations of Evidence

Another problem altogether is the failure of the evolutionary expectation (and triumphant proclamation) that these genomic intruders are nothing more than junk. In fact this so-called junk has occasionally been discovered to perform various functions, such as in embryonic development and gene regulation. Indeed evolutionists have had to conclude that this junk actually played an important role in, yes, evolution itself.

But if you already believe that all of biology just happened to arise by itself, then it is hardly a challenge to believe that retro viruses and the like could have serendipitously played important roles in the narrative. Philosophers refer to this as theory-dependent observations. The evolutionist’s credulous interpretation is a consequence of the fact that they are evolutionists to begin with.

From a theory-neutral perspective these functions cast a long shadow on evolution. Are we simply and automatically to believe that evolution just happened to create retro viruses which then, in turn, just happened to play crucial roles in the evolution of the species?

The Religion in Evolution

Given these conundrums one might think evolutionists would go easy on these evidences. There certainly is plenty of supporting evidence, but there are complicating questions. The complicating questions, however, have to do with the details of evolutionary history. How could this happen and how could that happen?

Those are merely the details of evolutionary theory, and evolutionary theory never was motivated by the liklihood of evolution. Evolutionary theory is, and always has been, motivated by the mandate for naturalistic explanation. As so many Christians have argued, naturalism is required for both philosophy and theology. Both man and god need a natural history, for anything less is bad science and bad religion.

In this case, it is obvious that god never would have designed or created pseudogenes, viruses and the rest of the genomic malcontents. We would have to believe, as Ken Miller explains, that the designer made serious errors, wasting millions of bases of DNA on a blueprint full of junk and scribbles. As Elliot Sober has pointed out, this is the Darwinian principle—it is not that the probability of the evidence is so high on evolution, but that it is so low on creation.

Whether the pattern always fits, or whether unlikely functions are discovered, is altogether irrelevant. Yes, they reduce the probability of the evidence on evolution, but so what? What’s the difference between 0.1/0 and 0.01/0? Either way evolution wins.

This is evolutionary thinking. Darwin and evolutionists before and after, evaluate the evidence on creation and find it wanting. Furthermore naturalistic explanation is necessary for good science. Evolutionary theory is unlikely, but necessarily true, for the alternatives are both false and not allowed anyway.

Yes there is evidence for evolution in the genome. It is complicated but any objective analysis would tally points for Darwin. But those points would have to be compared to the many other evidences, both for and against the theory. The problematic evidences are formidable and evolution would not emerge unscathed. The genomic evidence in particular, and the totality of evidence in general, do not bode well for evolution, whichever version one favors. The idea from Kent certainly would not qualify for anything close to the status of fact. Unless, that is, the idea had to be true. Religion drives science and it matters.

295 comments:

  1. OM,

    And Biological indeterminacy would be studied through Darwinian fantasies, instead of doing what particle physics is boldly doing in the LHC.

    What is that! Quantum mechanics managed to change classical physics but Darwins' fantasy will never make place for intelligence that might even be explained by indeterministic entities found in QM.

    P.S. Explain indeterministic materialism. You see materialism kind of need a deterministic foundation otherwise it just does not sound like materialism. You bring me the definition of materialism that does not imply determinism.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Michael said...

    And Biological indeterminacy would be studied through Darwinian fantasies, instead of doing what particle physics is boldly doing in the LHC.

    What is that! Quantum mechanics managed to change classical physics but Darwins' fantasy will never make place for intelligence that might even be explained by indeterministic entities found in QM.

    P.S. Explain indeterministic materialism. You see materialism kind of need a deterministic foundation otherwise it just does not sound like materialism. You bring me the definition of materialism that does not imply determinism.


    Wow, the blustering armchair philosophizer is on a roll! All those hundreds of scientific disciplines that have been making discoveries and improving the quality of life for the last four hundred years by using materialistic methods better move aside! SIC 'EM MICHAEL!!

    You and pastor Neal make quite a pair. Are you having a contest to see who can be first to the bottom of the stupid pit?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Zacho: Mammals is a set contained within the set of vertebrates.

    Do you even understand the concept of a subset and members of different sets? Can you mix the members of marsupials with members of placentals?


    Zacho: We're not talking about traits, but the mathematical pattern of descent along uncrossed lines when *grouped by ancestry*. We will discuss traits once we are clear on this.

    Thank you for this demonstration of Darwinian illogic. This is Darwinian circular reasoning at its best. Zacho is saying that nested hierarchy is evidence of common ancestry. But to get the nested hierarchy we have to “group by ancestry”. This is priceless.

    Beyond this Zacho has no idea of how cladistics work as demonstrated by his ignorance between the use mathematic probabilities based on derived apomorphic traits.


    teleological blog: But the real problem is your hierarchy is based on a predefined pattern of descent. e.g. You are not going to take all the known taxa and throw them in a pot and calculate based on some probability and see what comes out?

    Zacho: Actually, that is how cladistics works. You take a large number of traits, and create a large number of possible trees with their entailed predictions, then find the one that fits the data most parsimoniously.

    This is just ignorance. Nobody who understands cladistics would actually practice it this way. Zacho’s idea of how Darwinists actually do cladistics is the propaganda view from the swamp. When you finally figure out what you are talking about then we can continue. Pardon me for incorrectly assuming you actually understand the fairytale that you are defending.

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  4. Zachriel: Mammals is a set contained within the set of vertebrates.

    teleological blog: Do you even understand the concept of a subset and members of different sets?

    Yes, the set mammals is strictly contained within vertebrates.

    teleological blog: Can you mix the members of marsupials with members of placentals?

    Marsupials and placentals are disjunct sets contained within mammals.

    teleological blog: This is Darwinian circular reasoning at its best. Zacho is saying that nested hierarchy is evidence of common ancestry. But to get the nested hierarchy we have to “group by ancestry”.

    You asked to be stepped through the argument for Common Descent. The first step is defining the patterns involved. If we posit descent along uncrossed lines, it will yield a nested hierarchy when grouped by ancestry. This not an empirical statement, but a mathematical one concerning pattern.

    Do you agree? Or are you going to continue to wave your hands?

    teleological blog: Pardon me for incorrectly assuming you actually understand the fairytale that you are defending.

    In other words, when you asked to be stepped through the argument, you were not being completely truthful.

    ReplyDelete
  5. We accept their are more than two fundamental entities (or 3 if you include plasma) and try to understand them.

    OM:
    What are the other two? Fire and water?

    Information and Life.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Zachriel:
    You asked to be stepped through the argument for Common Descent. The first step is defining the patterns involved.

    Those would be LINEAGES

    If we posit descent along uncrossed lines, it will yield a nested hierarchy when grouped by ancestry.

    That is false.

    Ancestor-descendent relationships lead to lineages which are non-nested hierarchies.

    IOW when asked to produce positive evidence Zachriel chooses deceit over reality.

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  7. Joe G:

    "Are you saying that blind, undirected chemical processes designed and built those [PCR] machines?
    "

    diaper boy troy:
    Standard ID creationist reply. Even if scientists will successfully simulate plausible prebiotic conditions that generate self-replicating molecules (SRM's), IDCers will simply dismiss it with the "argument" that scientists intelligently designed the experiment.

    What an ignorant rant.

    DNA does not replicate outside of a cell- that was my claim.

    To "refute" that claim nanobot said PCR machines- as if.

    So stop being such a bloody fool and try to follow along.

    So, what evidence would satisfy our creationist friends that "blind undirected chemical processes" can plausibly generate primitive life (SRM's)?

    Well first the only thing scientists have created are RNAs- and it takes two, one for a template and one to act as a catalyst- which work together with other synthesized RNAs- and only one bond is catalyzed.

    So they have to start removing their involvement.

    But first they need a self-replicator, and as I said with RNA it takes at least two to tango...

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  8. The only thing I can say to the Darwinian hypocrites is that it is very telling that science has moved so far beyond their precious fantasy that retrofiring it to modern QM realities would look like insisting on accommodating geocentricism in modern physics. I suppose it can be done but why? Just to wast more tax payer money on a theory that explains nothing?

    P.S. Intelligence is the only observed phenomenon that can create functional specified complex information (FSCI). Studying intelligence is not beyond science we do it all the time, the reality is that we have to contend with indeterministic realities in these studies.

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  9. Here's a guy that boldly traversed the quantum barrier in his studies about consciousness. I think he's a Buddhist, just for the fools who simply cannot distinguish science and metaphysics.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Just fascinating to see Stuart's proposal for conscious influences during the Cambrian explosion.

    Funny how the "birth of consciousness" coincide with ID's predictions of where intelligent influences are clearly observed. Wonderful to see different lines of investigation converging to the same conclusion... it seems as if consciousness has something to to with evolution.

    ReplyDelete
  11. For the Darwinian hypocrites that most probably will be whining about Stuart Hameroff being an evolutionist paying lip-service to Darwin. I know that and it is besides to point... Read what he says about consciousness.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Michael
    it seems as if consciousness has something to to with evolution.
    It might "seem" it to you but wake me up when you have some actual evidence.

    And you keep linking to that "paper" at discovery.org. You'd think that was the only paper you could call on.


    Oh, that's right....


    And you never said a word about the peer review controversy regarding that paper. I guess facts don't matter to you all that much.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Michael
    Quantum mechanics managed to change classical physics but Darwins' fantasy will never make place for intelligence that might even be explained by indeterministic entities found in QM.

    You've yet to explain what the intelligent design answer is to the things that Darwin's fantasy currently explains.

    QM was needed because results were obtained (data) that did not fit the previous model.

    What data is it that you think exists but that ID can explain and Darwin's stupid idea can't?

    I'm waiting....

    ReplyDelete
  14. Michael
    Funny how the "birth of consciousness" coincide with ID's predictions of where intelligent influences are clearly observed.

    There are no predictions in that web site you link to.

    What are ID's predictions of where intelligent influences are clearly observed? Do you even know?

    Or to put it a simpler way, Michael, when was the last time the designer intervened/designed and how do you know that?

    I mean, was it at the start of life only, last week, when?

    You just said ID predicts when. So tell me.

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  15. teleological blog:

    "Do you even understand the concept of a subset and members of different sets? Can you mix the members of marsupials with members of placentals?"

    Oh no, another blithering idiot who can't handle abstract thinking, yet confidently calls others clueless about sets.

    I give you the truly empty set:

    Dumb_and_dumber = {{},{Joe G},{teleological blog}}

    I'm worried if the set keeps growing it will make an irreversible transition to a Black Set that is so dense, even information cannot escape from it.

    ReplyDelete
  16. OM,

    Your intelligibility just went down the drain because you have not given the slightest indication that you comprehended the content that was presented to you.

    Both the papers of Stuart Hameroff and Stephen Meyer covers the Cambrian explosion and both conclude that "...it seems as if consciousness has something to to with evolution.".

    Go to the text cited and proof me wrong. You are consistently dense, so I am not expecting you to comprehend any of the work presented to you. My expectation from you next post is the same as all your previous posts.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Michael,

    Both the papers of Stuart Hameroff and Stephen Meyer covers the Cambrian explosion and both conclude that "...it seems as if consciousness has something to to with evolution.".

    Why don't you sum up their argument in your own words? And a conclusion of "it seems as if" is hardly conclusive is it? It might seem it, but is it?

    You are consistently dense, so I am not expecting you to comprehend any of the work presented to you.

    I guess I have that in common with the rest of the reality based scientific community then as that paper has had zero impact what-so-ever.

    My expectation from you next post is the same as all your previous posts.

    I expect you to ignore my specific questions and proclaim victory regardless.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Michael,
    What you seem to be missing is the conclusion

    Conclusion

    The place of consciousness in evolution is unknown, but the actual course of evolution itself may offer a clue. Fossil records indicate that animal species as we know them today including conscious humans all arose from a burst of evolutionary activity some 540 million years ago (the "Cambrian explosion"). It is suggested here that:

    1. Occurrence of consciousness was likely to have accelerated the course of evolution.
    2. Small worms, urchins and comparable creatures reached critical biological complexity for emergence of primitive consciousness at the early Cambrian period 540 million years ago.
    3. Cooperative dynamics of microtubules, cilia, centrioles and axonemes were the critical biological factors for consciousness.
    4. Cytoskeletal complexity available in early Cambrian animals closely matches criteria for the Penrose-Hameroff Orch OR model of consciousness.
    5. Orch OR caused the Cambrian explosion.


    Nothing in there about a designer, external consciousness influencing the "explosion" or anything whatsoever that supports your position that an external designer was involved.

    Sure, consciousness may have been factor in the CE but there's nothing in that paper that indicates it was anything other then simply present in the organisms in question. No "intelligent designer" required.

    Funny how the "birth of consciousness" coincide with ID's predictions

    Funny, yes. Evidence for ID's involvement in the CE? Not in any way whatsoever.

    Unless of course you think that the designer evolved during the CE and designed his fellow organisms.

    Even for an ID proponent you are reaching.

    ReplyDelete
  19. OM,

    Just because you are trying. It will help you tremendously if you find some comprehension about an indeterministic cause that seems to be isolated to Quantum Mechanics while it influenced the Cambrian Explosion of life. What about QM indeterminancy is "inside-" or "outside-consciousness" in relation to the Cambrian Explosion? Stuart certainly did not make a comment in that regard.

    Stuart simply indicate that unguided chemical processes are not a viable explanation for the CE, because consciousness seems to play a role, in probably coming into existence.
    What about consciousness is unguided chemical reactions?
    Build some understanding of effects caused by indeterministic causes. Build some understanding of reality's definition on a quantum level.

    You still need to answer me about the relationship between materialism and indeterminate reality.

    P.S. ID detects the act of intelligence regardless of the source of consciousness. It will help you to take that in mind. Being stuck with your notions of "a designer" etc, is not good for your reasoning skills.

    Personally I find it easy and very rewarding to study acts of intelligence / consciousness regardless of my metaphysical convictions. You seem to struggle with that, why?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Michael
    With some of Yockey's insight shared, I would love to see Darwinists fall over their incompetence to comprehend the implication of indeterministic origins of life.

    Why don't you share those implications with us, you obviously know what they are. And way to ignore everything I've said about that work. I suppose the only way you can function is to make a statement, ignore responses, make another statement. If you started listening to critics you might well change your mind, and I'm sure your pastor would be angry at that thought.

    Everybody belief that the origin of life is possible as Yockey mentioned, that is the only sane thing to conclude from observing life all around us. The crux remains deterministic vs. indeterministic.

    Can you say that in English?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Michael
    It will help you tremendously if you find some comprehension about an indeterministic cause that seems to be isolated to Quantum Mechanics while it influenced the Cambrian Explosion of life.

    Meaningless drivel.

    What about QM indeterminancy is "inside-" or "outside-consciousness" in relation to the Cambrian Explosion? Stuart certainly did not make a comment in that regard.

    You believe that an intelligent designer was involved in the CE. So "outside" refers to the fact that that designer must be something other then the organisms involved in the CE. It's a pretty simple idea.

    Stuart simply indicate that unguided chemical processes are not a viable explanation for the CE, because consciousness seems to play a role, in probably coming into existence.

    No, he's saying that those unguided chemical processes led to consciousness which may have caused a feedback effect to take place, further driving development.

    Why don't you ask him yourself if he agrees with you?

    What about consciousness is unguided chemical reactions?
    Build some understanding of effects caused by indeterministic causes. Build some understanding of reality's definition on a quantum level.


    More meaningless drivel.

    You still need to answer me about the relationship between materialism and indeterminate reality.



    More meaningless drivel. And you can hardly talk to me about what I need to answer you on as you've ignored almost everything I've said so far.

    P.S. ID detects the act of intelligence regardless of the source of consciousness. It will help you to take that in mind. Being stuck with your notions of "a designer" etc, is not good for your reasoning skills.

    Then what acts of intelligence has ID detected so far?

    Personally I find it easy and very rewarding to study acts of intelligence / consciousness regardless of my metaphysical convictions. You seem to struggle with that, why?

    And what conclusions have you come to from this study?

    And what specific event in the CE do you believe was caused by a consciousness other then that possessed by the organisms themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  22. If it is to much to ask for comprehension of QM indeterminancy. Let me put it straight:

    A-Stuart said it seems reasonable to think that consciousness started at the CE
    B-Stehen said the best explination is that consiousness had to influence the genetic increase in information.

    ReplyDelete
  23. OM,

    I am not ignoring the things you state about anything, because I have no answer (I already told you why I ignore most of what you say). But lets try again:

    It is simply because that not everything you say deserves a response. Clearly you do something similar because apart from not being able to comprehend basic concepts presented to you, you consistently misrepresent and ignore critical material.

    You also keep babbling about your unfounded perceptions about ID and my personal metaphysical position. Stop wasting your time because you know nothing about my position and I am not using it in any of these discussions.

    I am perfectly happy with the effort I am making to engage your concerns. The only new material brought into this discussion came from me. Your contribution is by and large obtuse statements of incomprehension.

    P.S.
    Stuart Hameroff's work is all about quantum consciousness and if you think QM is classical physics and chemistry, then wallow it your ignorance.

    ReplyDelete
  24. troy,

    A Summary of the Principles of Hierarchy Theory

    I understand that page- my bet is that you do not.

    Ya see the expert who wrote that agrees with me...

    ReplyDelete
  25. OM:
    You've yet to explain what the intelligent design answer is to the things that Darwin's fantasy currently explains.

    The "explanations" that your position provides are as valid as the explanations kids give their teachers for not having their homework completed...

    ReplyDelete
  26. OM:
    And you never said a word about the peer review controversy regarding that paper.

    The "controversy" was manufactured by evotards who couldn't handle the facts.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Michael
    A-Stuart said it seems reasonable to think that consciousness started at the CE
    B-Stehen said the best explination is that consiousness had to influence the genetic increase in information.


    None of which implies, or requires, an "intelligent designer" to be present.

    Hence no support for ID whatsoever.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Michael
    Your contribution is by and large obtuse statements of incomprehension.

    Indeed. So why do you bother to respond?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Joe G
    The "explanations" that your position provides are as valid as the explanations kids give their teachers for not having their homework completed...

    Even if that were true, it's still an explanation that is many orders of magnitude more detailed then the intelligent design explanation, which seems to consist solely of "at some unknown time via an unknown method an unknown entity did something unknown".

    Am I wrong? If so, fill in the "unknowns".

    ReplyDelete
  30. Joe
    The "controversy" was manufactured by evotards who couldn't handle the facts.

    Then it should be easy for you to either point out the factual errors on that Wikipedia page that details the controversy or correct the errors yourself via the edit button.

    The fact that you have done neither provides a better explanation of your actual position then your words do.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Joe
    I understand that page- my bet is that you do not.

    Ya see the expert who wrote that agrees with me...


    Why don't you give us some examples then of how to do it "right"?

    Or do you not have any such examples to hand?

    hah.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Michael
    You also keep babbling about your unfounded perceptions about ID and my personal metaphysical position. Stop wasting your time because you know nothing about my position and I am not using it in any of these discussions.

    It's quite easy to read between the lines. Why don't you have the courage of your convictions and state your position?

    YEC is it?

    ReplyDelete
  33. teleological blog: Do you even understand the concept of a subset and members of different sets? Can you mix the members of marsupials with members of placentals?

    troy: Oh no, another blithering idiot who can't handle abstract thinking, yet confidently calls others clueless about sets.

    Apparently, teleological blog doesn't understand that if Homo sapiens is contained in eutheria, and eutheria is contained in mammalia, and mammalia is contained in vertebrata, then Homo sapiens is contained in vertebrates.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Joe G:

    "A Summary of the Principles of Hierarchy Theory

    I understand that page- my bet is that you do not."

    Good for you. Why don't you ask the writer if {X,X} is a set?

    ReplyDelete
  35. Page 34 of "The use of hierarchies as organizational models in systematics", Biological Journal of the Linnean Society (1998), 63: 1–49

    Regardless of what is eventually learned about the evolution of Clarkia/Heterogaura, the complex nature of evolutionary processes yields patterns that are more complex than can be represented by the simple hierarchical models of either monophyletic systematization or Linnaean classification.

    Zachriel and the evotards are wrong, as usual.

    ReplyDelete
  36. OM:
    Then it should be easy for you to either point out the factual errors on that Wikipedia page that details the controversy or correct the errors yourself via the edit button.

    Why don't you point out the facts?

    Wikipedia is extremely biased against all things ID.

    Even if I did edit the page they would just change it back.

    ReplyDelete
  37. troy:
    Why don't you ask the writer if {X,X} is a set?

    It is a multiset which is a form of set.

    ReplyDelete
  38. OM,

    You are so confused.

    You think ID needs to have the answers before being called science.

    However that is what science is for- to help us answer the questions.

    Ya see reality dictates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) and specific processes used is bt studying the design in question.

    IOW it is obvious that you are totally ignorant of how science operates.

    ReplyDelete
  39. OM:
    Why don't you give us some examples then of how to do it "right"?

    It's all on my blog...

    ReplyDelete
  40. OM,

    Your position is void of details.

    And you cannot provide a testable hypothesis for it...

    ReplyDelete
  41. Joe G
    Ya see reality dictates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) and specific processes used is bt studying the design in question.

    And what have you discovered so far?

    What specific design have you been studying?

    ReplyDelete
  42. Joe,
    Your position is void of details.

    You are right.I wish it were not so, Darwinism has no details worked out. my argument would be much stronger then

    I realise ID is in a much stronger position when it comes to the details. Plenty of activity in the journals.

    And with people like you at the helm ID can only rise to greater and greater
    heights.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Joe G,

    It's all on my blog...

    What, your "evidence"?

    Out of interest, what was the last experiment you performed Joe? And the result?

    Also, what was the last hypothesis you tested and what were the results? How did you go about testing it?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Joe G:

    "It is a multiset which is a form of set."

    Haha. Joe did some research. Kudos for that. At least you try to learn something. But, unsurprisingly, you managed to misunderstand again. {X,X} is a multiset, but not a set. All sets are special multisets, but not all multisets are sets. Get it?

    ReplyDelete
  45. Joe,
    However that is what science is for- to help us answer the questions.

    And on a similar note to my last post it would really help my understanding of your "position" if you tell me what the questions you are asking that you think science will help answer?

    And when do you expect an answer?

    And what are you doing to get closer to that goal? Talking to evotards on the internet in your bathrobe ain't gonna do it you know! Get a job!

    ReplyDelete
  46. Hey Troy,
    Joe knows more about hierarchies and stuff then any other person living! In fact he invented several types of set theory and is about to publish a paper detailing his explosive new discoveries.

    Apparently those silly darwinists have been doing it all wrong all along! Luckily Joe is here to clarify the matter and put everybody straight.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Joe G,
    Why don't you point out the facts?

    Wikipedia is extremely biased against all things ID.

    Even if I did edit the page they would just change it back.


    Very well, let's do that.

    On 7 September 2004, the publisher of the journal, the Council of the Biological Society of Washington, released a statement repudiating the article: The paper by Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history.

    Are you saying they are lying? They must be, if that statement is untrue. And it is, according to you.

    Or is it true Joe?

    Here's another so called (by you) fact:

    Michael Shermer disputed Sternberg's qualifications as a peer reviewer, stating that it dealt less with the areas Sternberg was qualified to review (systematics and taxonomy) than it did paleontology, for which many members of the society would have been better qualified to peer review the paper; at that time the Society had three members who were experts on Cambrian invertebrates, the subject discussed in Meyer’s paper.

    Again, Joe, true or untrue? Were there or where there not better qualified people to review the paper?

    Sternberg has repeatedly refused to identify the three "well-qualified biologists,"citing personal concerns over professional repercussions for them.

    True or untrue Joe?

    What a piece of work Sternberg is, and you worship the ground he walks on.

    ReplyDelete
  48. OM:

    "Apparently those silly darwinists have been doing it all wrong all along! Luckily Joe is here to clarify the matter and put everybody straight."

    I'm so glad. Hallelujah. At first I thought Joe G is a retarded lonely loser, but now I see He is Teh Genyuz. Praise be upon Him!

    ReplyDelete
  49. troy said...

    OM:

    "Apparently those silly darwinists have been doing it all wrong all along! Luckily Joe is here to clarify the matter and put everybody straight."

    I'm so glad. Hallelujah. At first I thought Joe G is a retarded lonely loser, but now I see He is Teh Genyuz. Praise be upon Him!


    JoeTard is only Teh Genyuz on all things Evilutionistic on the side. His main marketable skill is fixing toasters.

    ReplyDelete
  50. I'm so glad. Hallelujah. At first I thought Joe G is a retarded lonely loser, but now I see He is Teh Genyuz. Praise be upon Him!

    JoeTard is only Teh Genyuz on all things Evilutionistic on the side. His main marketable skill is fixing toasters.

    Troy and Thornton, mockery, while sometimes it makes you feel better, does nothing to strengthen your arguments. Most arguments are, in fact weakened by derision. That goes for you too Joe.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Fil said...

    Troy and Thornton, mockery, while sometimes it makes you feel better, does nothing to strengthen your arguments. Most arguments are, in fact weakened by derision. That goes for you too Joe.


    You need to understand that many of us have a history with Joe going back years. He's always been a brainless screamer. He's also physically threatened most of us at one time or another, almost got fired once for making threats from his work computer too. Hasn't learned a darn thing or changed his arrogant stupidity approach even once. Trust me, JoeTard earned every last bit of derision he gets.

    ReplyDelete
  52. You need to understand that many of us have a history with Joe going back years. He's always been a brainless screamer. He's also physically threatened most of us at one time or another, almost got fired once for making threats from his work computer too. Hasn't learned a darn thing or changed his arrogant stupidity approach even once. Trust me, JoeTard earned every last bit of derision he gets.

    Ok, if you say so. It makes me less likely to read your posts though, which I normally do, and pursue the links, which I sometimes do. Ok course I don't read his either.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Joe,
    Still waiting for you to point out the errors in the Sternberg wikipedia page.

    Otherwise I'll take your silence as an admission that you were in fact wrong all along.

    I'll make a deal. You point out the errors, I'll make the edits. Fair? Of course, I'll be using your name as they are your edits really, but...

    ReplyDelete
  54. Fil,
    If you want to get an idea about Joe and how he operates this thread should be illuminating:

    http://tinyurl.com/3a8qguv

    Here's a typical example

    Just because you can prove that you are an asshole doesn't mean anything to ID.

    ReplyDelete
  55. OM,

    I am still waiting for you to verify what is posted on the wikipedia page.

    Otherwise I will take that as an admission that you are wrong.

    Ya see you posted it so it is up to you to make sure it is correct.

    Sternberg said it is wrong so I have to side with the guy who knows more than anyone who wrote the wikipedia article.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Also I am still waiting for you to produce a testable hypothesis and positive evidence for your position.

    Your continued refusal to do so tells me that you are a coward.

    What's the problem?

    ReplyDelete
  57. OM:
    Joe knows more about hierarchies and stuff then any other person living!

    Doubt it.

    However it is obvious that I know more about the subject than you do.

    ReplyDelete
  58. OM.

    Phylogeny has NOTHING to do with blind, undirected chemical processes.

    IOW you are nothing but an asshole equivocator.

    You are also an intellectual coward as this has been pointed out to you time and again.

    You are a liar, loser and hopelessly clueless.

    Hope that helps...

    ReplyDelete
  59. OM:
    You are right.I wish it were not so, Darwinism has no details worked out. my argument would be much stronger then

    Thank you for continuing to prove that you are nothing but an equivocating coward.

    Not one thing you linked to supports blind, undirected chemical processes.

    IOW it appears that you A) don't understand your position or B) you are just a liar as this has been pointed out to you several times.

    So why do you insist on equivocating?

    Are you really that dishonest or that ignorant?

    ReplyDelete
  60. Joe G: Phylogeny has NOTHING to do with blind, undirected chemical processes.

    It's called *evidence*. Determining the history of life, including ancestry, is important to understanding how those posited transitions occurred.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Joe
    I am still waiting for you to verify what is posted on the wikipedia page.

    I have spoken to the AAAS and they confirm that this statement:

    The paper by Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history. For the same reason, the journal will not publish a rebuttal to the thesis of the paper, the superiority of intelligent design (ID) over evolution as an explanation of the emergence of Cambrian body-plan diversity. The Council endorses a resolution on ID published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science (http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml), which observes that there is no credible scientific evidence supporting ID as a testable hypothesis to explain the origin of organic diversity. Accordingly, the Meyer paper does not meet the scientific standards of the Proceedings.

    We have reviewed and revised editorial policies to ensure that the goals of the Society, as reflected in its journal, are clearly understood by all. Through a web presence (http://www.biolsocwash.org) and improvements in the journal, the Society hopes not only to continue but to increase its service to the world community of systematic biologists.


    Was issued by them and they stand behind it.

    That's part of the Wikipeda page. Verified.

    Now, do you accept that or not?

    ReplyDelete
  62. Joe
    Sternberg said it is wrong so I have to side with the guy who knows more than anyone who wrote the wikipedia article.

    Despite the freely available evidence that directly contradicts his statements? Understood.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Joe
    However it is obvious that I know more about the subject than you do.

    Not when you call a multiset a set you don't. Ha.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Joe G,

    Not one thing you linked to supports blind, undirected chemical processes.

    As there is no evidence that anything but blind, undirected chemical processes are all that's required is that so surprising? Not one thing I linked to supports Pink Unicorns either. But there you go.

    When you come up with some actual evidence that blind, undirected chemical processes are insufficient then by all means let me know.

    Until then......

    ReplyDelete
  65. Joe
    Not one thing you linked to supports blind, undirected chemical processes.

    Then I guess this is where Intelligent Design jumps in to fill the gap between chemistry and organic life.

    So, Joe, how does ID get us over the insufficiency of blind, undirected chemical processes to get to life?

    Is it that "intelligent design" helped? Do you have a little more detail then "it wuz ID that did it".

    I mean, there are entire books out there on chemical evolution. What does ID have? You in a bathrobe insisting the "A designer did something, sometime, somewhere, somehow. It just did! No fair asking for details!".

    haha.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Not one thing you linked to supports blind, undirected chemical processes.

    OM:
    As there is no evidence that anything but blind, undirected chemical processes are all that's required is that so surprising?

    Too bad there isn't any evidence that blind, undirected chemical processes do construct anything.

    IOW thank you for continuing to prove that you cannot support your position.

    When you come up with some actual evidence that blind, undirected chemical processes are insufficient then by all means let me know.

    Actually you need positive evidence and it is obvious that you cannot produce a testable hypothesis.

    ReplyDelete
  67. OM:
    So, Joe, how does ID get us over the insufficiency of blind, undirected chemical processes to get to life?

    Designing agenicies can do things that blind, undirected processes cannot.

    For example they can create complex functioning systems from scratch.

    Do you have a little more detail then "it wuz ID that did it".

    That is what science is for you moron.

    And your position is void of details.

    It is so vague it shouldn't even be a theory.

    I mean, there are entire books out there on chemical evolution.

    Dean Kenyon wrote one- now he is an IDist.

    And again if you don't like the design inference blame yourself for it is the total failure of your position to produce positive evidence to support it taht has allowed ID to stay around.

    ReplyDelete
  68. However it is obvious that I know more about the subject than you do.

    OM:
    Not when you call a multiset a set you don't.

    I didn't do that you ignorant punk.

    I said a multiset is a form of set.

    It is.

    ReplyDelete
  69. OM:
    Despite the freely available evidence that directly contradicts his statements?

    Manufactured diatribe.

    It wouldn't hold up in Court.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Phylogeny has NOTHING to do with blind, undirected chemical processes.

    Zachriel:
    It's called *evidence*.

    It is not evidence for your position.

    Determining the history of life, including ancestry, is important to understanding how those posited transitions occurred.

    No genetics is important to understanding if those transitions could occur.

    And so far there isn't any genetic evidence that supports the claim.

    ReplyDelete
  71. OM,

    I do not accept anything from the agenda driven AAAS.

    The ONLY reason you do is because you happen to agree with them.

    ReplyDelete
  72. OM: Not when you call a multiset a set you don't.

    Joe G: I didn't do that ...

    I said a multiset is a form of set.


    Thar she blows!

    ReplyDelete
  73. Zachriel: Determining the history of life, including ancestry, is important to understanding how those posited transitions occurred.

    Joe G: No genetics is important to understanding if those transitions could occur.

    So your claim is that determining the history is not important to understanding that history.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Joe
    I do not accept anything from the agenda driven AAAS.

    I guess if you can't object at the factual level all you've left is the ideological level.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Joe
    Designing agenicies can do things that blind, undirected processes cannot.

    For example they can create complex functioning systems from scratch.


    I guess you missed the part where I asked for more detail then "the designer did it". Which is essentially what you've just said. Again. Remember, we were talking about the insufficient of chemical evolution to get us to life and that's where ID is supposed to jump in and supply the details? And you sure did that...

    That is what science is for you moron.

    Science will never give you the answers you seek. You will live all your life awaiting that evidence that will never come. Sad really. Perhaps you are relying on the various ID science labs to provide the answers. Well, I understand that one ID lab has just bought a second computer! Well on the way I'd say...

    And your position is void of details.

    I know. You don't have to keep rubbing it in!

    Dean Kenyon wrote one- now he is an IDist.

    Yes, he also was involved with "Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of Biological Origins" and we all know what a help that was to ID at Dover. I hope he keeps up that level of quality in his future endeavours.

    Manufactured diatribe.

    It wouldn't hold up in Court.


    Yet you can't point out a single factual error in that text or the Wikipedia article. You just keep saying it's invalid but won't say why. I guess it's simply because you disagree with the overall conclusion.

    ReplyDelete
  76. OM
    Not when you call a multiset a set you don't.

    Joe G: I didn't do that ...

    I said a multiset is a form of set.


    Zachriel:
    Thar she blows!

    Zacho is still upset that he was exposed as a poseur...

    ReplyDelete
  77. Designing agenicies can do things that blind, undirected processes cannot.

    For example they can create complex functioning systems from scratch.


    OM:
    I guess you missed the part where I asked for more detail then "the designer did it".

    I guess you missed the part where I told you that is what science is for.

    And your position is void of details.

    Remember, we were talking about the insufficient of chemical evolution to get us to life and that's where ID is supposed to jump in and supply the details?

    IOW you don't undestand how science operates.

    That is what science is for you moron.

    Science will never give you the answers you seek.

    Actually you are seeking the answers..
    Don't tell me what I am seeking.

    You will live all your life awaiting that evidence that will never come.

    The evidence exists and is being studied.

    And your position is void of details.

    I know. You don't have to keep rubbing it in!

    What detail do you have?

    Do you know the genes involved in the various transtions? No.

    Do you know if changes to the genome can account for the anatomical and physiological changes required? No.

    Dean Kenyon wrote one- now he is an IDist.

    Yes, he also was involved with "Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of Biological Origins" and we all know what a help that was to ID at Dover.

    Yes seeing that judge jonesy wouldn't let the publisher testify and the anti-IDists goty away with lying...

    And ID wasn't pased. That decision is only valid in a samll insignifcant district in a PA.

    Manufactured diatribe.

    It wouldn't hold up in Court.


    Yet you can't point out a single factual error in that text or the Wikipedia article.

    And you cannot verify anything in the wikipedia article.

    Go figure...

    ReplyDelete
  78. BTW OM, the fact that you keep linking to sites about "evolution" proves you are a spineless equivocating coward.

    ID is not anti-evolution.

    Evidence for "evolution" is not evidence for any particular mechanism.

    ReplyDelete
  79. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  80. I said a multiset is a form of set.

    In mathematics, a multiset (or bag) is a generalization of a set.

    Zachriel:
    Is a cat a form of mammal?

    What is the connection between your question and what I said?

    Or is your medication kicking in?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Zachriel: Determining the history of life, including ancestry, is important to understanding how those posited transitions occurred.

    No genetics is important to understanding if those transitions could occur.

    Zachriel:
    So your claim is that determining the history is not important to understanding that history.

    Only someone twisted and dishonest could reach that inference.

    My claim is we have to determine what changes to the genome can account for in order to determine that history.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Joe G: What is the connection between your question and what I said?

    We're trying to parse your use of words, through a parallel case.

    A multiset is a form of set. Does that mean a multiset is a set?
    A cat is a form of mammal. Does that mean a cat is a mammal?

    As usual, you didn't answer the questions.

    Zachriel: Determining the history of life, including ancestry, is important to understanding how those posited trnsitions occurred.

    Joe G: No

    Joe G: My claim is we have to determine what changes to the genome can account for in order to determine that history.

    That doesn't justify your answer. Clearly, determining historical events is important to understanding how and why they occurred.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Zachriel:
    A multiset is a form of set.

    That is what I said and supported witrh a link to wikipedia.

    So what is your problem?

    Clearly, determining historical events is important to understanding how and why they occurred.

    Yes we have to first be made aware of a historical event before we can delve into how and why.

    That is what I have been telling you for years - we study the design to try to answer the hows and whys...

    And BTW a cat is a mammal because of the way we classify living organisms.

    But no one knows what makes a cat a cat other than a cat is the result of the succesful mating between a tom and she-cat....

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  84. Zachriel: A multiset is a form of set

    Joe G: That is what I said and supported witrh a link to wikipedia.

    No. It says "In mathematics, a multiset (or bag) is a generalization of a set." It doesn't say it's a form of a set.

    Joe G: And BTW a cat is a mammal because of the way we classify living organisms.

    That wasn't the question. A cat is a form of mammal. Does that mean (imply that) a cat is a mammal?

    ReplyDelete
  85. Zachriel:
    It says "In mathematics, a multiset (or bag) is a generalization of a set." It doesn't say it's a form of a set.

    Ummm a generalization is a form.

    IOW thanks you for continuing to expsoe your ignorance.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Joe G,
    The evidence exists and is being studied.

    Citation please.

    What evidence?

    Who is studying it?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Joe G,
    Yes seeing that judge jonesy wouldn't let the publisher testify and the anti-IDists goty away with lying...

    And ID wasn't pased. That decision is only valid in a samll insignifcant district in a PA.


    Let's hear one of those lies then. As far as I can recall the only lies told were by the IDists.

    http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2005/10/buckingham_lies_under_oath_in.php

    School board members Bill Buckingham, Sheila Harkins and Alan Bonsell and Supt. Richard Nilsen have, under oath, either said they have no memory of making the remarks related to creationism or denied making them.
    But some residents and former district officials insist the board members made the statements they later denied making...

    When attorneys asked Buckingham whether he said at a school board meeting that all he wants is a book that offers balance between what he said are the "Christian view of creationism and evolution," Buckingham stated, "Never said it."

    But a taped television interview at the time shows Buckingham, the board's chief proponent of intelligent design, talking about teaching creationism in science class.


    I guess video recordings of lies won't be considered sufficient evidence by you Joe. But that's OK because what you think is about as relevant to science as a gnats chuff.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Joe
    Yes we have to first be made aware of a historical event before we can delve into how and why.

    What is the historical event that ID claims to shed light on?

    Was the designer's input into the process?

    A) Before the universe existed?
    B) Fine tuning in the big bang?
    C) Direct intervention once?
    D) Direct intervention many times?
    E) Quantum tuning of events?


    C'mon Joe. Which one of those options best describes the "historical event" that ID claims to study? If none of the above, then what?

    I mean, because if we go on all you've said so far then all we know is that "At some point in time, somewhere, an unknown designer did something unknown to something unknown an unknown number of times and for an unknown duration".

    Has ID filled in a single gap yet? If so, what was the data?

    Hahahahahahah.

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  89. Joe
    Yes seeing that judge jonesy wouldn't let the publisher testify and the anti-IDists goty away with lying...

    Had the publisher testified what do you suppose they would have said that would have changed the outcome of the case?

    ReplyDelete
  90. Joe
    What detail do you have?

    Do you know the genes involved in the various transtions? No.


    Let's play a game. Why don't you name a single one of these "various transitions" and I'll go and see what I can find out about it from contemporary science.

    At the same time you can research (i.e. read the bible) what ID's position is on that particular transition and we can compare results at the end of the process? If no direct data is available then we can at least discuss how ID and "Darwinism" can work towards finding out the answer and which has the best chance of discovering something relevant.

    I'm game, are you? I can't see how you could not be, after all you want to *know* too right?

    ReplyDelete
  91. Joe G: Ummm a generalization is a form.

    They are contrary. A form is more specific. A generationization is less specific. Hence, if you ever bothered an answer questions, then a cat is a form of mammal (a subset of the class), hence implies that that a cat is a mammal.

    Everyone can see you refuse to answer simple questions that can help elucidate your views.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Ummm a generalization is a form.

    Zachriel:
    They are contrary.

    A generic drug is pretty much the same as the name brand.

    A generationization is less specific.

    I know I said that- it is a less specific form.

    ReplyDelete
  93. OM:
    Let's play a game. Why don't you name a single one of these "various transitions" and I'll go and see what I can find out about it from contemporary science.

    No games- just provide any genetic data that you think supports your position.

    Then we can discuss it.

    At the same time you can research (i.e. read the bible) what ID's position is on that particular transition and we can compare results at the end of the process?

    ID isn't based on the Bible.

    And ID does not argue against common ancestry.

    Evidence for common ancestry is not evidence for a mechanism.

    If no direct data is available then we can at least discuss how ID and "Darwinism" can work towards finding out the answer and which has the best chance of discovering something relevant.

    You should just focus on providing positive evidence for your position, starting with a testable hypothesis pertaining to blind, undirected chemical processes.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Joe
    No games- just provide any genetic data that you think supports your position.

    I have already.

    And ID does not argue against common ancestry.

    No, that's why UncommonDescent.com is named as it is.

    Evidence for common ancestry is not evidence for a mechanism.

    Like you know anything about evidence.

    You should just focus on providing positive evidence for your position, starting with a testable hypothesis pertaining to blind, undirected chemical processes.

    I don't need to. Just because you are not convinced does not mean a thing. The people who count, the people at the sharp end doing the research, they count. Armchair commentators like you don't count in the slightest.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Peer review as he said is the fallacy of appeal to authority. Just because others agree on it, does not make it any more valid. By that standard, all the pastors that agree on a matter of faith, make that faith valid, no? see the ignorance in this idea of 'peer' review? Who the hades cares if a bounch of so called scientists, who can not show one bit of repeatable evidence to back up macro evolution claim that they know better? It's amazing how easily you evo's destroy your own argument with these infernal and never ending logical fallacies!

    ReplyDelete